Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

munsterlegend · 31-03-2018 11:36AM

Oaklyn Early Fauna wrote: »

Tip for the protestors - turn up outside the Munster and Leinster games today, two big matches that will be shown internationally.

Nothing like giving people plenty of opportunity to make fools of themselves.

Leinster playing tomorrow and Munster today.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 31-03-2018 11:38AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Leinster playing tomorrow and Munster today.

D'oh! :-)

Sofiztikated · 31-03-2018 11:39AM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

No. I said I was treated with much more respect in Spain, and I was.
I could talk to men my age, and older men about philosophy, politics, etc
I cane home to Ireland, and I had to leave a group that I joined due to some of the older men in the group making jokes about paedophilia. Ireland's disgrace.

I've had a pleasant chat with an Austrian woman about healthcare, a Dutch woman about maths, shipbuilding & Lego, and have had my balls groped by an Irish woman of about 50, and a friend was kicked out of a nightclub because an ex came up and tried to shift him, when he pushed her away, she clawed his face and the bouncers jumped in.

Your bias is EXACTLY the same as those who say all women are sluts or manhating dykes.

Give it a rest, it's tiring.

And ****ing Spain, of all places. Where men apparently have so little respect for women, they take up all available space. Like cats.

Tell me how · 31-03-2018 11:40AM

Aragon77 wrote:

So if they are all free and not guilty, will she be charged for falsifying statements, if they are genuinely innocent then this is a real life changing experience if theyâ€™re actually guilty, but free in a legal sense, then karma and her family will undoubtedly find them...

Real life is not black and white.

She believes she was raped, I believe the men are not rapists because they were tried and found not guilty.

They showed abhorrent attitudes to women, but are not rapists. Her case was not upheld, she is not a liar.

She has nothing to fear from karma.

retro:electro · 31-03-2018 11:40AM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

No. I said I was treated with much more respect in Spain, and I was.
I could talk to men my age, and older men about philosophy, politics, etc
I cane home to Ireland, and I had to leave a group that I joined due to some of the older men in the group making jokes about paedophilia. Ireland's disgrace.

You know you’ve been asked a tonne of questions right? And you just keep apple bobbing your head in ignoring everything asked and going on another rant. People in Spain must be laughing at us and our inability to answer questions

Flipper22 · 31-03-2018 11:41AM

optogirl wrote: »

I think if that same style evidence was given in say, a 4 white cops versus black woman case in the States there would absolutely be race riots and I'd totally understand why. Consent or no consent, those beasts sent that girl home in a bloody, hysterical heap. How anyone can say she is 'crying rape' or the myriad other vile words I've heard used to describe her (not least from the men of good character themselves) is sickening to me. We're at a point where women don't care if they are laughed at by a certain cohort for being angry about this - this disgusting language, the treatment, the bragging...and all of it boiling down to 'that's the way lads talk' and 'not indicative of the true character of the author' is terrifying and a lot of people - men and women, have had enough.

It's sad that is always has to come back to what if it was your daughter/sister etc and that some men cannot just have empathy for that girl as a fellow human but again, read that court testimony, read what their lawyers said, read those messages and seriously think how you would feel if that was your sister/niece/cousin/friend/daughter. We are sick of it.

It is genuine anger on display here - not band wagon hopping. I really wish I hadn't spent the last few days thinking about this, that I didn't have to, that it didn't honestly make me feel sick in my stomach but here we are.

The level of adversarialism in US courts puts irish or British courts in the halfpenny place. What you describe in your first paragraph absolutely does happen and doesn't lead to race riots.

Even if you were to look more closely at the publically available evidence in this case, you would see that you are mistaken in lots of what's in this post.

suicide_circus · 31-03-2018 11:43AM

professore wrote: »

I know Spanish men and women personally and they ALL say men treat women far better here than in Spain. So not sure where you are getting that from.

The age of "consent" is 13 in Spain FFS.

Same goes for pretty much all of eastern europe - in the way women are treated by men, not the age of consent

Fann Linn · 31-03-2018 11:43AM

Gonna be a slow news week by the looks of things, Marian remeniscing about Bertie and Charlie and NT talking about the cost of childcare.

Time to take the dog for a walk.

hynesie08 · 31-03-2018 11:43AM

optogirl wrote: »

I think if that same style evidence was given in say, a 4 white cops versus black woman case in the States there would absolutely be race riots and I'd totally understand why. Consent or no consent, those beasts sent that girl home in a bloody, hysterical heap. How anyone can say she is 'crying rape' or the myriad other vile words I've heard used to describe her (not least from the men of good character themselves) is sickening to me. We're at a point where women don't care if they are laughed at by a certain cohort for being angry about this - this disgusting language, the treatment, the bragging...and all of it boiling down to 'that's the way lads talk' and 'not indicative of the true character of the author' is terrifying and a lot of people - men and women, have had enough.

I am in no way defending the actions of the lads after the girl left the bedroom, they treated her like dirt, and any future action against them should be based on that conduct, not an already over trial.

It's sad that is always has to come back to what if it was your daughter/sister etc and that some men cannot just have empathy for that girl as a fellow human but again, read that court testimony, read what their lawyers said, read those messages and seriously think how you would feel if that was your sister/niece/cousin/friend/daughter. We are sick of it.

Apologies if my reply came off that way, I feel so bad for that girl, nobody deserved to be talked about like that.

It is genuine anger on display here - not band wagon hopping. I really wish I hadn't spent the last few days thinking about this, that I didn't have to, that it didn't honestly make me feel sick in my stomach but here we are.

And I believe you when you say that, but there's an element of these protests who need SOMETHING to be offended by, and like in the case of ssm and the eighth, they have no actual idea what they want, they just try to shout down anyone who disagrees with them and repeat the same sound bites ad nauseum, it's them I have an issue with.

GingerLily · 31-03-2018 11:44AM

Aragon77 wrote: »

So if they are all free and not guilty, will she be charged for falsifying statements, if they are genuinely innocent then this is a real life changing experience if they’re actually guilty, but free in a legal sense, then karma and her family will undoubtedly find them...

Why are you saying she falsifyed her statements? There is no evidence to suggest she lied, the only verdict was that the jury didn't find them guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt, not that she didn't believe she was raped.

It's quite clear she did.

wexie · 31-03-2018 11:47AM

hynesie08 wrote: »

And I believe you when you say that, but there's an element of these protests who need SOMETHING to be offended by, and like in the case of ssm and the eighth, they have no actual idea what they want, they just try to shout down anyone who disagrees with them and repeat the same sound bites ad nauseum, it's them I have an issue with.

Same here, I see plenty to be upset over and perhaps even protest.

What bothers me is the crowd that always only protest against something yet somehow never offer up any suggestions for how to make things better and when you have the nerve to point this out somehow you become part of the problem

py2006 · 31-03-2018 11:48AM

I feel sorry for the female witness. I'm sure she wishes she was never there.

As are a lot of the hashtag brigade it seems...

Flipper22 · 31-03-2018 11:48AM

Aragon77 wrote: »

So if they are all free and not guilty, will she be charged for falsifying statements, if they are genuinely innocent then this is a real life changing experience if they’re actually guilty, but free in a legal sense, then karma and her family will undoubtedly find them...

I highly doubt it.

It would have to be proven that she maliciously lied. Based on the evidence it would be difficult if not impossible even to prove that she was honestly mistaken.

Sofiztikated · 31-03-2018 11:50AM

optogirl wrote: »

I think if that same style evidence was given in say, a 4 white cops versus black woman case in the States there would absolutely be race riots and I'd totally understand why. Consent or no consent, those beasts sent that girl home in a bloody, hysterical heap. How anyone can say she is 'crying rape' or the myriad other vile words I've heard used to describe her (not least from the men of good character themselves) is sickening to me. We're at a point where women don't care if they are laughed at by a certain cohort for being angry about this - this disgusting language, the treatment, the bragging...and all of it boiling down to 'that's the way lads talk' and 'not indicative of the true character of the author' is terrifying and a lot of people - men and women, have had enough.

It's sad that is always has to come back to what if it was your daughter/sister etc and that some men cannot just have empathy for that girl as a fellow human but again, read that court testimony, read what their lawyers said, read those messages and seriously think how you would feel if that was your sister/niece/cousin/friend/daughter. We are sick of it.

It is genuine anger on display here - not band wagon hopping. I really wish I hadn't spent the last few days thinking about this, that I didn't have to, that it didn't honestly make me feel sick in my stomach but here we are.

The problem is everyone focuses on the loud ones, and the empty vessels make the most noise.

Are there real problems? Absolutely. But it's people with reasoned arguments that need to be heard.

FrancieBrady · 31-03-2018 11:51AM

Tell me how wrote: »

Real life is not black and white.

She believes she was raped, I believe the men are not rapists because they were tried and found not guilty.

They showed abhorrent attitudes to women, but are not rapists. Her case was not upheld, she is not a liar.

She has nothing to fear from karma.

I think this 'generalisation' is dangerous to be honest.

They showed 'abhorrent attitudes' to one woman.

The idea that that means they have 'abhorrent attitudes' to ALL women or to womankind is wrong imo and it is where the reaction to this case goes pearshaped.

I don't have the same 'attitude' to all women as I have to my wife or women friends just as I don't have the same attitude to all men.

The Talking Bread · 31-03-2018 11:51AM

Spain.............................

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/03/06/inenglish/1520325751_504683.html

Flipper22 · 31-03-2018 11:53AM

GingerLily wrote: »

Why are you saying she falsifyed her statements? There is no evidence to suggest she lied, the only verdict was that the jury didn't find them guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt, not that she didn't believe she was raped.

It's quite clear she did.

I wouldn't be making assumptions about what she believed. Either way

irishrebe · 31-03-2018 11:54AM

professore wrote: »

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Do people really not see how Ireland is preceived abroad.
Had anyone been abroad for a considerable length of time, that is talking on here?
We are seen as an alcoholic, misogynistic nation.
You do know other countries don-t treat women the same way that we do?
Ive lived in Spain for a considerable length of time. I have lived in different countries (teaching English). Spain is known for having a macho culture. I was treated with 10 times more respect in Spain than I was in Ireland.
Youve got to look at ourselves. Hatred of women in Ireland has been passed from father and son down for generations. How do we change it? Do you want to continue on like this? Teach the next generation to hate?

I know Spanish men and women personally and they ALL say men treat women far better here than in Spain. So not sure where you are getting that from.

The age of "consent" is 13 in Spain FFS.

Well, you go ahead and dismiss someone's lived experience with your second hand anecdotes. I grew up in Ireland and on my mile long walk home from school each day, I was beeped at repeatedly by grown men starting from the age of 11. They knew I was a child, I was wearing a school uniform. Sometimes they would put the window down and shout lewd comments. I'm living in Spain now and pretty much every time I go home to visit, I'll get some sort of moronic comment or beeping or wolf whistle on the street. You know how many times that has happened to me in Spain? Once. And the age of consent is 16, not 13.

py2006 · 31-03-2018 11:54AM

I always found it odd if a man criticises, disagrees with or insults a particular woman a whole wave of women think they are targeted too.

irishrebe · 31-03-2018 11:56AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Tell me how wrote: »

Real life is not black and white.

She believes she was raped, I believe the men are not rapists because they were tried and found not guilty.

They showed abhorrent attitudes to women, but are not rapists. Her case was not upheld, she is not a liar.

She has nothing to fear from karma.

I think this 'generalisation' is dangerous to be honest.

They showed 'abhorrent attitudes' to one woman.

The idea that that means they have 'abhorrent attitudes' to ALL women or to womankind is wrong imo and it is where the reaction to this case goes pearshaped.

I don't have the same 'attitude' to all women as I have to my wife or women friends just as I don't have the same attitude to all men.

What you're suggesting is almost worse. That the victim deserved to be talked about in that way because of her sexual behaviour? Where are you going with this point?

Flipper22 · 31-03-2018 11:56AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think this 'generalisation' is dangerous to be honest.

They showed 'abhorrent attitudes' to one woman.

The idea that that means they have 'abhorrent attitudes' to ALL women or to womankind is wrong imo and it is where the reaction to this case goes pearshaped.

I don't have the same 'attitude' to all women as I have to my wife or women friends just as I don't have the same attitude to all men.

Just to note, I didn't see anything from jackson or Harrison that I would say is abhorrent.

It was Mcilroy, and Olding to a lesser extent. The worst messages were from other people in the group, none of these four.

Pelvis · 31-03-2018 12:00PM

irishrebe wrote: »

What you're suggesting is almost worse. That the victim deserved to be talked about in that way because of her sexual behaviour? Where are you going with this point?

He suggested nothing of the sort. What are you smoking?

irishrebe · 31-03-2018 12:04PM

Pelvis wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

What you're suggesting is almost worse. That the victim deserved to be talked about in that way because of her sexual behaviour? Where are you going with this point?

He suggested nothing of the sort. What are you smoking?

They showed an abhorrent attitude towards one woman, he says, which doesn't mean they have this attitude to all women. So why would this one woman deserve to be spoken about in this way? What could possibly justify them making the comments they made?

Outlaw Pete · 31-03-2018 12:04PM

py2006 wrote: »

I always found it odd if a man criticises, disagrees with or insults a particular woman a whole wave of women think they are targeted too.

The 'trust women' thing is as bad.

Yeah, hang on there and I'll trust three and half billion women.

wexie · 31-03-2018 12:04PM

irishrebe wrote: »

What you're suggesting is almost worse. That the victim deserved to be talked about in that way because of her sexual behaviour? Where are you going with this point?

He didn't even remotely suggest that. He just pointed out we only know they showed an abhorrent attitude to one woman in particular. Suggesting therefor they have the same attitude to ALL women is piss poor reasoning.

freshpopcorn · 31-03-2018 12:06PM

irishrebe wrote: »

Well, you go ahead and dismiss someone's lived experience with your second hand anecdotes. I grew up in Ireland and on my mile long walk home from school each day, I was beeped at repeatedly by grown men starting from the age of 11. They knew I was a child, I was wearing a school uniform. Sometimes they would put the window down and shout lewd comments. I'm living in Spain now and pretty much every time I go home to visit, I'll get some sort of moronic comment or beeping or wolf whistle on the street. You know how many times that has happened to me in Spain? Once. And the age of consent is 16, not 13.

Lots of people blow the horn just being friendly either that or your in the way iny experience.

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 12:07PM

There's no winners in the case, and the root cause yet again is the large quantities of alcohol taken by those involved.

Sofiztikated · 31-03-2018 12:07PM

irishrebe wrote: »

They showed an abhorrent attitude towards one woman, he says, which doesn't mean they have this attitude to all women. So why would this one woman deserve to be spoken about in this way? What could possibly justify them making the comments they made?

This is exactly what doesn't help.

Someone says something, and you run with the argument that you want, not what was actually said.

The Talking Bread · 31-03-2018 12:08PM

irishrebe wrote: »

Well, you go ahead and dismiss someone's lived experience with your second hand anecdotes. I grew up in Ireland and on my mile long walk home from school each day, I was beeped at repeatedly by grown men starting from the age of 11. They knew I was a child, I was wearing a school uniform. Sometimes they would put the window down and shout lewd comments. I'm living in Spain now and pretty much every time I go home to visit, I'll get some sort of moronic comment or beeping or wolf whistle on the street. You know how many times that has happened to me in Spain? Once. And the age of consent is 16, not 13.

So it is ok for you and your outraged luvvies to generalise 3 million Irish men yet you pull up someone for refuting such an abhorrent and frankly dangerous claim.

And, no, #IDontBelieve for a minute that you were constantly beeped at, whistled at etc coming home from school every day. Especially at 11 years of age. It may suit your agenda to claim this and you may pull out the "you weren't there " mantra but I would put my life on the line that this is a mistruth.

If you can call someone a rapist, I can call you a liar.

This irrational agenda seeking outrage desperation generalisation of men is disgusting. Get over yourself.

Laois_Man · 31-03-2018 12:10PM

irishrebe wrote: »

They showed an abhorrent attitude towards one woman, he says, which doesn't mean they have this attitude to all women. So why would this one woman deserve to be spoken about in this way? What could possibly justify them making the comments they made?

Maybe the point is that these men, rightly or wrongly, were of the opinion that this particular girl, was a tramp.

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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