Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

irishrebe

wexie wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

What you're suggesting is almost worse. That the victim deserved to be talked about in that way because of her sexual behaviour? Where are you going with this point?

He didn't even remotely suggest that. He just pointed out we only know they showed an abhorrent attitude to one woman in particular. Suggesting therefor they have the same attitude to ALL women is piss poor reasoning.

But why is this even relevant? What difference does it make whether they use this language to describe their sisters and mothers or save it for 'sl*ts with loose vaginas'? Do you not agree it shows a worryingly misogynistic attitude?

shesty

I am totally bewildered by the reaction to this this, marching and all!!

There's a few things about this whole mess that speak loudly to me anyway.As far as I can see, she was happy to go to a certain point, then seemed to decide no....then couldn't or didn't or wouldn't communicate it (drink seems to have been a factor in that....).The case took 9 weeks, and the verdict took what...3 hours???Does that not indicate that she was not that convincing?The way she told her friends the day after is just bizarre, if she was that traumatised, does a throwaway text to a friend really seem like the reaction you would have??And WHY....are so many people so surprised at those text messages?

Sorry, I am not defending those lads.But their behaviour is exactly what I'd expect of guys like them, right down to the text messages.I am a woman.I am an engineer, which means I have been in mostly male-dominated college/social/work scenarios since I left school.There are a number of stereotype male groups that most men fit into (like women do!) And those guys are no different!!!!Who cares that they are rugby players, sometimes those guys are worse to deal with.I have plenty of male friends, but moreso than many women, I have had many opportunities to see the more eh....."relaxed" male behaviour in a group firsthand.I don't like those texts, I think they are ignorant, caveperson type behaviour that you would like to think 24 year olds should have grown out of....but am I naive enough to think that similar texts don't go round whatsapp everyday in male groups??No.Of course they do.Doesn't make it right but why is it such a shock to everyone?

I was very surprised at the verdict personally.Not because I think they are innocent (they aren't, exactly) but because I honestly thought the case would go her way due to the prevailing culture around women's rights....regardless of the evidence.As equally as my last points, it wouldn't have made a guilty verdict right, but there you go.

There's little or nothing I can do about this case, but I won't be marching.All I can do myself is to demand respect from the many men around me on a personal and professional basis, and behave in such a way that demands respect.And also....teach my daughters to demand that same respect and not to behave in a way that results in any other reaction from the men around them.And any sons I may have to have the same respect for women in their lives, that they are not items to be objectified, but equals.

As for the rugby players in question, I think their careers are fairly over at this point.

The Talking Bread

Bob_Marley wrote: »

There's no winners in the case, and the root cause yet again is the large quantities of alcohol taken by those involved.

The winners are Louise O'Neill and the rabid feminist following. The generalisation of men and vitriol being directed at us is dangerous mindset.

irishrebe

The Talking Bread wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Well, you go ahead and dismiss someone's lived experience with your second hand anecdotes. I grew up in Ireland and on my mile long walk home from school each day, I was beeped at repeatedly by grown men starting from the age of 11. They knew I was a child, I was wearing a school uniform. Sometimes they would put the window down and shout lewd comments. I'm living in Spain now and pretty much every time I go home to visit, I'll get some sort of moronic comment or beeping or wolf whistle on the street. You know how many times that has happened to me in Spain? Once. And the age of consent is 16, not 13.

So it is ok for you and your outraged luvvies to generalise 3 million Irish men yet you pull up someone for refuting such an abhorrent and frankly dangerous claim.

And, no, #IDontBelieve for a minute that you were constantly beeped at, whistled  at etc coming home from school every day. Especially at 11 years of age. It may suit your agenda to claim this and you may pull out the "you weren't there " mantra but I would put my life on the line that this is a mistruth.

If you can call someone a rapist, I can call you a liar.

This irrational agenda seeking outrage desperation generalisation of men is disgusting. Get over yourself.

Where am I generalising anyone? I'm saying what I experienced. Nowhere did I say ALL Irish men are like this. Feel free not to believe me, I don't give a f*ck. I'm used to men telling me what I did and didn't experience, despite the fact they weren't there. I would have thought all the videos of women being sexually harassed in the street while wearing hidden cameras would have helped more men to understand that this does happen and it happens often, but no, I'm sure someone like you would claim it was a set up, or the woman encouraged it, or some other pure sh1te.

irishrebe

Laois_Man wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

They showed an abhorrent attitude towards one woman, he says, which doesn't mean they have this attitude to all women. So why would this one woman deserve to be spoken about in this way? What could possibly justify them making the comments they made?

Maybe the point is that these men, rightly or wrongly, were of the opinion that this particular girl, was a tramp.

You just don't get it, do you?

jr86

shesty wrote: »

As for the rugby players in question, I think their careers are fairly over at this point.

Na, they'll be well able to make good careers for themselves in England/France

wexie

irishrebe wrote: »

But why is this even relevant? What difference does it make whether they use this language to describe their sisters and mothers or save it for 'sl*ts with loose vaginas'? Do you not agree it shows a worryingly misogynistic attitude?

Ah hang on now, I'm not defending their behaviour in any way. What I am doing is pointing out that just assuming because some men show a worrying attitude doesn't mean that all men have the same attitude.

Can you not see that you saying : 'that guy is a douchebag therefor all guys are douchebags' is as bad and no more helpful than someone else reasoning 'that girl has questionable morals therefor all other girls must have questionable morals'?

Do you really think that attitude is going to start a constructive debate that may eventually lead to something positive?

The Talking Bread

irishrebe wrote: »

But why is this even relevant? What difference does it make whether they use this language to describe their sisters and mothers or save it for 'sl*ts with loose vaginas'? Do you not agree it shows a worryingly misogynistic attitude?

Paddy Jackson and his band of merry men don't reflect the vast vast vast majority of Irish men. Do they reflect your male relatives, your friends' partners, all your ex partners, work colleagues.








Edit...........I am sure you will say they will, so pointless question

The Talking Bread

irishrebe wrote: »

Where am I generalising anyone? I'm saying what I experienced. Nowhere did I say ALL Irish men are like this. Feel free not to believe me, I don't give a f*ck. I'm used to men telling me what I did and didn't experience, despite the fact they weren't there. I would have thought all the videos of women being sexually harassed in the street while wearing hidden cameras would have helped more men to understand that this does happen and it happens often, but no, I'm sure someone like you would claim it was a set up, or the woman encouraged it, or some other pure sh1te.

Your whole spiel is based on generalisation.

Are you that ignorant you don't even realise this??

Seriously????



Even now you are generalising while trying to argue you aren't doing so !!!! ( "I'm sure someone like you")

optogirl

The Talking Bread wrote: »

The winners are Louise O'Neill and the rabid feminist following. The generalisation of men and vitriol being directed at us is dangerous mindset.

Ah come on. There are thousands of men in agreement....despite the fact that a lot of other men can't concieve of this and accuse said men of being cucks (shudder) liars or looking for the ride. Why must a woman saying she doesn't want to be treated like ****e always be described as 'rabid'?

FrancieBrady

irishrebe wrote: »

What you're suggesting is almost worse. That the victim deserved to be talked about in that way because of her sexual behaviour? Where are you going with this point?

This is exactly the type of bandwagon jumping generalistions I am talking about.

I am not suggesting anything of the kind. I neither know the girl or the men involved.

I am saying that I make judgements on people based on their interactions with me personally and on their behaviours.
That should not be taken for judgement on a whole gender.

irishrebe

wexie wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

But why is this even relevant? What difference does it make whether they use this language to describe their sisters and mothers or save it for 'sl*ts with loose vaginas'? Do you not agree it shows a worryingly misogynistic attitude?

Ah hang on now, I'm not defending their behaviour in any way. What I am doing is pointing out that just assuming because some men show a worrying attitude doesn't mean that all men have the same attitude.

Can you not see that you saying : 'that guy is a douchebag therefor all guys are douchebags' is as bad and no more helpful than someone else reasoning 'that girl has questionable morals therefor all other girls must have questionable morals'?

Do you really think that attitude is going to start a constructive debate that may eventually lead to something positive?

That wasn't what you said though, was it? You said those particular lads might not have used that language about any woman, only that particular woman.

Flipper22

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Paddy Jackson and his band of merry men don't reflect the vast vast vast majority of Irish men. Do they reflect your male relatives, your friends' partners, all your ex partners, work colleagues.








Edit...........I am sure you will say they will, so pointless question

What did Paddy Jackson personally say that people find so outrageous?

Mrsmum

Laois_Man wrote: »

Maybe the point is that these men, rightly or wrongly, were of the opinion that this particular girl, was a tramp.

There was no rape claim when they made their comments. From their pov they were after having a great night where they had sex & she had sex, they enjoyed themselves and according to them she enjoyed herself. Both parties had sex, yet they see her as a tramp and they are legends. Does show a sad double standard. Years ago the nuns used to tell us that in the minds of boys there were two types of girls - those who will and those who won't, those who will they will use and those who won't they will marry. I think maybe the nuns had PJ and his crew down to a tee.

wexie

irishrebe wrote: »

That wasn't what you said though, was it? You said those particular lads might not have used that language about any woman, only that particular woman.

I did indeed say that because we don't know whether or not they did.

irishrebe

The Talking Bread wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Where am I generalising anyone? I'm saying what I experienced. Nowhere did I say ALL Irish men are like this. Feel free not to believe me, I don't give a f*ck. I'm used to men telling me what I did and didn't experience, despite the fact they weren't there. I would have thought all the videos of women being sexually harassed in the street while wearing hidden cameras would have helped more men to understand that this does happen and it happens often, but no, I'm sure someone like you would claim it was a set up, or the woman encouraged it, or some other pure sh1te.

Your whole spiel is based on generalisation.

Are you that ignorant you don't even realise this??

Seriously????

I countered an anecdote from someone who heard from someone else that Spanish men treat women much worse than Irish men do with a first hand anecdote of my own, and you're accused me of generalising? When I literally wrote a few sentences about what I personally have experienced? Can you point out any part of that paragraph which generalises a group of people?
I honestly think you must be having a laugh now, because this is almost parody. Man makes a comment about 'Spanish men' based on a second hand comment, and that's fine and dandy. Woman who has lived in both Ireland and Spain describes personal experience in each country and is called a liar and accused of making generalisations. This is comical, lads.

Sofiztikated

irishrebe wrote: »

But why is this even relevant? What difference does it make whether they use this language to describe their sisters and mothers or save it for 'sl*ts with loose vaginas'? Do you not agree it shows a worryingly misogynistic attitude?

Noone is saying what they said was nice.

I'm a good person. Big proponent of Repeal, got out and helped campaign in MarRef, yadda yadda. I've said some awful things in my past, especially in jest with my friends. Some I wouldn't repeat, because I know they were awful, and I'm ashamed. There's conversations between me and my wife that would make her look guilty if I was found dead in the morning.

Taken as a snapshot of me, and judging my whole character on it? Then judging the whole of Ireland? Please.

Bob_Marley

The Talking Bread wrote: »

The winners are Louise O'Neill and the rabid feminist following. The generalisation of men and vitriol being directed at us is dangerous mindset.

That's going on regardless anyway, if it wasn't this case they would be using something else to push their hatred.

hynesie08

irishrebe wrote: »

I countered an anecdote from someone who heard from someone else that Spanish men treat women much worse than Irish men do with a first hand anecdote of my own, and you're accused me of generalising? When I literally wrote a few sentences about what I personally have experienced? Can you point out any part of that paragraph which generalises a group of people?
I honestly think you must be having a laugh now, because this is almost parody. Man makes a comment about 'Spanish men' based on a second hand comment, and that's fine and dandy. Woman who has lived in both Ireland and Spain describes personal experience in each country and is called a liar and accused of making generalisations. This is comical, lads.

Generalising much? #notalllads

davidmarsh

I've looked back over the texts and can't see much in paddy jackson's comments tbh, deserving of such outrage.

P_1

Have to say that Jacksons lawyers have massively screwed up with their "threats" to sue anyone using the #ibelieveher hashtag.

Of course this could just be the (DOB owned) Belfast Telegraph playing up the controversy angle. Wouldn't be the first time they've done that.

The Talking Bread

Flipper22 wrote: »

What did Paddy Jackson personally say that people find so outrageous?

I am not talking about the text messages per se. I am talking about the fact that given the fact that once accused, he was guilty, in the #IBelieveHer mindset, even if they think he did rape her, generalising men on that basis is disgusting outlook.

Laois_Man

Mrsmum wrote: »

There was no rape claim when they made their comments. From their pov they were after having a great night where they had sex & she had sex, they enjoyed themselves and according to them she enjoyed herself. Both parties had sex, yet they see her as a tramp and they are legends. Does show a sad double standard. Years ago the nuns used to tell us that in the minds of boys there were two types of girls - those who will and those who won't, those who will they will use and those who won't they will marry. I think maybe the nuns had PJ and his crew down to a tee.

Not quite

From their POV, they had sex with one person, and she had sex with two, together. Of course, on occasion, some men will also have sex with two women together, and the women will quite possibly speak of him as a tramp afterwards also. I am not privvy to how women speak about 'dirty' men when no men are around.

The Talking Bread

irishrebe wrote: »

I countered an anecdote from someone who heard from someone else that Spanish men treat women much worse than Irish men do with a first hand anecdote of my own, and you're accused me of generalising? When I literally wrote a few sentences about what I personally have experienced? Can you point out any part of that paragraph which generalises a group of people?
I honestly think you must be having a laugh now, because this is almost parody. Man makes a comment about 'Spanish men' based on a second hand comment, and that's fine and dandy. Woman who has lived in both Ireland and Spain describes personal experience in each country and is called a liar and accused of making generalisations. This is comical, lads.

Well if you get off on that mindset of generalisation, here is food for thought

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/03/06/inenglish/1520325751_504683.html

SimpleDimples

Wow, just read all of this. Whether, people agree with the verdict or not, due process has found them not guilty.

If the jury, who with far more evidence, than any of us, decided they couldn't convict them, then I'm at a loss to see how anyone else could think they know better.

I'm not sure what the protests or #ibelieveher are supposed to achieve either.

The content of the texts isn't particularly flattering to anyone but the outrage is over the top.

I'm female but find the views of irishrebel, miss shuttleworth and appledreams (who sounds very like midlands missus) completely at odds with my opinion and experience of Irish men - the vast majority of whom are decent people. I find the views both disturbing and midly frightening!

Women's rights should never ever be about attacking men. It just cheapens any cause to do so.

AudreyHepburn

The level of malice being directed towards men on this thread is frightening. And yet they are the ones being accused of being disrespectful and dangerous.

The hypocrisy is staggering.

jr86

Flipper22 wrote: »

What did Paddy Jackson personally say that people find so outrageous?

The Northern Irish team were out last night...

Disgraceful ratting them out like that. Could have got fines off the IFA for unprofessionalism

Bob_Marley

One thing for sure the law in NI need to be changed to ensure the accused as well as complainants identity is kept anonymous during the trial.
The law needs to catch up with today's unsocial media world.
I feel sorry for everyone that was involved in this trial. What a nightmare.

Flipper22

P_1 wrote: »

Have to say that Jacksons lawyers have massively screwed up with their "threats" to sue anyone using the #ibelieveher hashtag.

Of course this could just be the (DOB owned) Belfast Telegraph playing up the controversy angle. Wouldn't be the first time they've done that.

Why?

Even the threat has caused a mass deletion of potentially defamatory tweets etc. Some people are happy to make grandiose and unfounded statements but don't have the courage of their convictions when faced with even the remote possibility of legal action.

It's about time people were held to account for their social media activity.

irishrebe

Sofiztikated wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

But why is this even relevant? What difference does it make whether they use this language to describe their sisters and mothers or save it for 'sl*ts with loose vaginas'? Do you not agree it shows a worryingly misogynistic attitude?

Noone is saying what they said was nice.

I'm a good person.  Big proponent of Repeal, got out and helped campaign in MarRef, yadda yadda.  I've said some awful things in my past, especially in jest with my friends.  Some I wouldn't repeat, because I know they were awful, and I'm ashamed.  There's conversations between me and my wife that would make her look guilty if I was found dead in the morning.

Taken as a snapshot of me, and judging my whole character on it?  Then judging the whole of Ireland?  Please.

This is where most of the people posting on this thread are 100% missing the point. A lot of the women protesting and marching aren't specifically disagreeing with the result of the trial. They're sick of this kind of  language and attitude and thinking. Would you say that referring to woman as sl*ts and talking about the tightness of their vagina is just harmless banter, or would you say it contributes to them being viewed as objects to be used and then 'thrown' home afterwards?