So Patrick street is bus only from Thursday 9th August

namloc1980 · 30-03-2018 11:54am

macraignil wrote: »

The only park and ride I know of in Cork is on the south side of the city and I live to the north in between Rathcormac and Castlelyons or in the sticks as you put it. It would take longer to drive to the park and ride and come back north again to get to work in the city centre. I do not drive to my desk but to a multistory parking facility a few minutes walk from work. There is no public transport where I live and no park and ride option that would improve my situation.

Drive to the train station in Little Island (free parking) and train it in (get a tax saver ticket and save even more!). Trains run every 15 minutes at peak hours. You'd save so much time instead of driving into the city. In the evening it's a 10 minute train trip versus the extra 1 hour you now say it takes. It's a no brainer. Get off on Little island and hop in the car and off up the road to Rathcormac. No hassle.

Also you said there's no public transport near you. The 245 runs through Rathcormac. Drive a car to there and get the bus. There are options besides taking your car.

Cork Boy 53 · 30-03-2018 12:02pm

macraignil wrote: »

The only park and ride I know of in Cork is on the south side of the city and I live to the north in between Rathcormac and Castlelyons or in the sticks as you put it. It would take longer to drive to the park and ride and come back north again to get to work in the city centre. I do not drive to my desk but to a multistory parking facility a few minutes walk from work. There is no public transport where I live and no park and ride option that would improve my situation.

Would the commuter train service be an option for you? Its only a short drive from the Dunkettle interchange to Little Island or Glounthaune stations and the service to and from the city centre is frequent enough at peak times. Probably would work out cheaper than the multi story car park charges too.

namloc1980 · 30-03-2018 12:27pm

Bacchus wrote: »

There's been gridlock out towards the tunnel the past two evenings... coincidence or knock on effect of traffic avoiding city center?

There's gridlock out to the tunnel nearly every evening. NRA traffic counter data shows no increase in traffic volume on approaches to the tunnel this week versus any other week. www.nratrafficdata.ie

macraignil · 30-03-2018 12:29pm

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

Would the commuter train service be an option for you? Its only a short drive from the Dunkettle interchange to Little Island or Glounthaune stations and the service to and from the city centre is reasonable enough at peak times. Probably would work out cheaper than the multi story car park charges too.

Thanks for the suggestion. I had not thought of that option. Where I work is at the western side of the city centre though and would be about a twenty minute walk from the train station and 15minute walk from the bus station. I'll run the idea past the girlfriend as we commute together usually and might give those options a try.

I would be very reluctant to rely on the bus from my experience with the number 7 when living at my parents house. We both work in a hospital so giving the patients the level of uncertainty that goes with the bus service in this country would be very irresponsible.

namloc1980 · 30-03-2018 12:40pm

macraignil wrote: »

Thanks for the suggestion. I had not thought of that option. Where I work is at the western side of the city centre though and would be about a twenty minute walk from the train station and 15minute walk from the bus station. I'll run the idea past the girlfriend as we commute together usually and might give those options a try.

I would be very reluctant to rely on the bus from my experience with the number 7 when living at my parents house. We both work in a hospital so giving the patients the level of uncertainty that goes with the bus service in this country would be very irresponsible.

The 205 goes from the train station to the western side of the city or get a Cork bikes subscription. 20 minute walk would equal a 5-7 minute cycle.

Owen · 30-03-2018 2:19pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Again I can't see how it's made the commute longer other than you're driving right into the core of the city. Park outside and walk in or bus it in or get a bike and park in the suburbs and cycle in. You don't need to bring your car to your desk at work. Take advantage of the bus priority in the city. Cities all over Europe have done this and it has undoubtedly improved things for everyone.

I don't work in the city. I need to drive through the city to get to work - I work on the very top of the northside, and I live in a southside suburb. Crossing both rivers is already a chore without this Patricks Street nonsense. There's no other route for me other than adding 30 minutes on convoluted backroads.

[Edit] Getting a bus takes also over an hour, and there's no direct route on a single bus I can plan for. My car commute used to be about 25 minutes previously.

titan18 · 30-03-2018 2:28pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

The 205 goes from the train station to the western side of the city or get a Cork bikes subscription. 20 minute walk would equal a 5-7 minute cycle.

Tbh, if the alternative transport is drive to a train station further away from your work, get the train, get a bus and then walk, or else take a bike, you can sort of understand why people would prefer to take their cars.

The car park in Little Island is tiny too so it's not a realistic alternative for the amount of people going into the city.

namloc1980 · 30-03-2018 2:45pm

titan18 wrote: »

Tbh, if the alternative transport is drive to a train station further away from your work, get the train, get a bus and then walk, or else take a bike, you can sort of understand why people would prefer to take their cars.

The car park in Little Island is tiny too so it's not a realistic alternative for the amount of people going into the city.

It is an alternative. I've never ever seen it even close to full. Ever. And I use the train daily. Little Island is just a very short distance from Dunkettle, not miles and miles out of the way in fairness. If people want to stick to their cars then fine - but don't moan about the traffic being terrible and commutes taking an hour longer etc when there are perfectly good quicker and cheaper alternatives. If people aren't prepared to do a short 20 minute walk or a 5 minute cycle then that's a pretty sad state of affairs. And confirms that some people really do want to drive their cars into their workplace.

Spend well over an hour sitting in a car vs a 5 minute cycle and 10 minute train ride. I don't see the attraction of the car to be honest in that situation.

30-03-2018 2:53pm

macraignil wrote: »

........I live to the north in between Rathcormac and Castlelyons or in the sticks as you put it............

Suburbia

30-03-2018 2:59pm

Owen wrote: »

I don't work in the city. I need to drive through the city to get to work - I work on the very top of the northside, and I live in a southside suburb. Crossing both rivers is already a chore without this Patricks Street nonsense. There's no other route for me other than adding 30 minutes on convoluted backroads.

[Edit] Getting a bus takes also over an hour, and there's no direct route on a single bus I can plan for. My car commute used to be about 25 minutes previously.

Could you not head up shanakiel.

namloc1980 · 30-03-2018 3:00pm

Owen wrote: »

I don't work in the city. I need to drive through the city to get to work - I work on the very top of the northside, and I live in a southside suburb. Crossing both rivers is already a chore without this Patricks Street nonsense. There's no other route for me other than adding 30 minutes on convoluted backroads.

[Edit] Getting a bus takes also over an hour, and there's no direct route on a single bus I can plan for. My car commute used to be about 25 minutes previously.

You can't expect to traverse the city centre without traffic. And the changes only impact the evening time so presumably your morning commute is unaffected. At the end of the day you choose where to live and work and all the travel and strain that comes with it. The city council are looking at the bigger picture of helping to improve the experience of the 900 buses that go through Patrick Street every day. Cork city buses carry over 12m passengers per year.

Owen · 30-03-2018 3:13pm

I know we're not going to agree and that's fine.

For me, I see the whole thing as a non-issue. Buses are going to be late even with this initiative. I can't think of the last time I was on Patrick Street in shared gridlock with Buses. It just hasn't happened with any sort of manic frequency to need this initiative. This is just complete unworkable nonsense. Hopefully the council will see sense and turn it back around again.

Owen · 30-03-2018 3:15pm

Augeo wrote: »

Could you not head up shanakiel.

Have you seen the traffic in Shanakiel in the evenings? Not to mention to get there you have to fjord the traffic either by going out through the link road/Wilton, or ... by going through town :pac:

30-03-2018 3:18pm

Owen wrote: »

Have you seen the traffic in Shanakiel in the evenings? Not to mention to get there you have to fjord the traffic either by going out through the link road/Wilton, or ... by going through town :pac:

From the Northside you can get there handy enough ?
You won't be needing to get there from Wilton in the evening surely. Your morning commute is unaffected by the 3 to 6.30pm car ban on Patrick Street.

Owen · 30-03-2018 3:24pm

Augeo wrote: »

From the Northside you can get there handy enough ?
You won't be needing to get there from Wilton in the evening surely. Your morning commute is unaffected by the 3 to 6.30pm car ban on Patrick Street.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I work on the Northside, and live on the South, so to go through Shanakiel as a route home in the evenings, I would get caught in traffic there, and then caught in the traditional Wilton/City Link traffic, or the shiny new traffic in the city. They're the options.

I have no idea why we're reducing this flawed concept affecting an entire city to hammering out individual circumstances and weighing those as if they have some sort of meaningful input into the whole thing. No one could care less about my commute (And I'm sure I'll be quoted on that shortly).

I just don't agree that there was enough of a problem to warrant this. And what happens in a few weeks when the Gards are gone? Are we all going to honour it? Like **** we are. We can't even keep yellow boxes free, or stop on red lights.

namloc1980 · 30-03-2018 3:32pm

Owen wrote: »

Are we all going to honour it? Like **** we are. We can't even keep yellow boxes free, or stop on red lights.

People's behaviour and lack of personal responsibility to blame there. The gardai can't monitor every junction and yellow box in the city.

Anyway I think it's a great initiative. Having been to a number of cities in Europe where they brought in pedestrianisation and public transport priority it has always proven successful. I can't think of anywhere where they backtracked on something like this and gave priority back to the car. It's only in place a few days and people are calling to scrap it. Bit of a joke.

Remember many people were up in arms over the Oliver Plunkett Street pedestrianisation in 2005. I don't think anyone wants to go back on that.

Bacchus · 30-03-2018 3:36pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

There's gridlock out to the tunnel nearly every evening. NRA traffic counter data shows no increase in traffic volume on approaches to the tunnel this week versus any other week. www.nratrafficdata.ie

The last two evenings have been on another level though. Normally I'd be through the tunnel in 10-15 minutes. It's taken 40 minutes the last two evenings. There may be no correlation but it could be more than just coincidence. Could traffic be avoiding going through the city and taking the tunnel instead?

This is during the mid-term break too BTW, when traffic should be lower.

AugustusMinimus · 30-03-2018 3:42pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

People's behaviour and lack of personal responsibility to blame there. The gardai can't monitor every junction and yellow box in the city.

Anyway I think it's a great initiative. Having been to a number of cities in Europe where they brought in pedestrianisation and public transport priority it has always proven successful. I can't think of anywhere where they backtracked on something like this and gave priority back to the car. It's only in place a few days and people are calling to scrap it. Bit of a joke.

Remember many people were up in arms over the Oliver Plunkett Street pedestrianisation in 2005. I don't think anyone wants to go back on that.

Oliver Plunkett Street is different though. It didn’t really carry much traffic and certainly wasn’t used for an major traffic movements in the city.

On the other hand, Patrick Street is used for various North / South movements. Cork City’s greatest deficiency is in north - south movements due to the river and other topological issues. A lack of road bridges is also an issue.

Closing Patrick Street to traffic blocks another north - south route and reduces the effectiveness of Patrick’s Bridge to handle traffic.

While it is a nice idea, Cork City council have as usual shown scant regard to the potential awful effects to traffic flow from their pedestrianisation schemes. These kind of things do turn people off heading into the city centre. In the end, it will be the traders who will suffer. And no one will avail of the pedestrian dream of the shops close.

kub · 30-03-2018 3:46pm

Bacchus wrote:

The last two evenings have been on another level though. Normally I'd be through the tunnel in 10-15 minutes. It's taken 40 minutes the last two evenings. There may be no correlation but it could be more than just coincidence. Could traffic be avoiding going through the city and taking the tunnel instead?

Have you seen the traffic levels using the tunnel in the evening?

Owen · 30-03-2018 3:48pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Anyway I think it's a great initiative. Having been to a number of cities in Europe where they brought in pedestrianisation and public transport priority it has always proven successful. I can't think of anywhere where they backtracked on something like this and gave priority back to the car.

I agree European Cities have this nailed. It's great to pedestrianise an active, enthusiastic urban area. Patricks Street is not that - we have multiple vacant units with weeds growing out of some windows, and we literally need cars to be able to access the street as people who live in apartments have car parks just off the street behind GQ for example. Removing cars from the street is just going to make it seem even more vacant than it already is, a city should have hustle and bustle - not overly so, but enough to create a city-like atmosphere.

Additionally, most European cities don't get the volume of rain we do. Public transport is alright when it's a nice day and you don't mind waiting in line for a bus, a clean, on time bus. But it rains a lot in Ireland, the cost of taking a bus is increasing YoY, and if I'm to be brutally honest comparing our Buses with the ones I saw in Poland last month? There's a whole different scale of service in terms of cleanliness and professionalism.

namloc1980 wrote: »

Remember many people were up in arms over the Oliver Plunkett Street pedestrianisation in 2005. I don't think anyone wants to go back on that.

OP is a different kettle of fish though. It was never a high volume street, and it wasn't used as a thoroughfare for traffic. It's narrow size, and tight turns into off streets lend well to a pedestrianised environment. My family owned 2 businesses on the street for a very long time - so this isn't anecdotal feedback. You can't compare like for like in this situation.

macraignil · 30-03-2018 4:00pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

It is an alternative. I've never ever seen it even close to full. Ever. And I use the train daily. Little Island is just a very short distance from Dunkettle, not miles and miles out of the way in fairness. If people want to stick to their cars then fine - but don't moan about the traffic being terrible and commutes taking an hour longer etc when there are perfectly good quicker and cheaper alternatives. If people aren't prepared to do a short 20 minute walk or a 5 minute cycle then that's a pretty sad state of affairs. And confirms that some people really do want to drive their cars into their workplace.

Spend well over an hour sitting in a car vs a 5 minute cycle and 10 minute train ride. I don't see the attraction of the car to be honest in that situation.

Previous to the Patrick street and other anti car changes to the city centre roads the trip from home to city centre car park was about 40minutes. Without traffic at all it would be 25minutes. I would normally avoid Dunkettle as there is a more direct route through Blackpool. To get to little island for me would take about 25minutes then to change to a train and a bus would mean the alternative is longer even if I don't allow any time for waiting for the bus or train or either of these getting delayed themselves. The bus from the train station must get stuck on the quay in the gridlock as well. While I agree there are some alternatives none are practical to be honest.

namloc1980 · 30-03-2018 4:10pm

Bacchus wrote: »

The last two evenings have been on another level though. Normally I'd be through the tunnel in 10-15 minutes. It's taken 40 minutes the last two evenings. There may be no correlation but it could be more than just coincidence. Could traffic be avoiding going through the city and taking the tunnel instead?

This is during the mid-term break too BTW, when traffic should be lower.

I checked the traffic data Easter week this year versus 2017. Substantially more traffic on the approaches to the tunnel in 2017 than this year. Traffic volumes this week are way below a normal week as well as the comparative time last year.

namloc1980 · 30-03-2018 4:14pm

macraignil wrote: »

Previous to the Patrick street and other anti car changes to the city centre roads the trip from home to city centre car park was about 40minutes. Without traffic at all it would be 25minutes. I would normally avoid Dunkettle as there is a more direct route through Blackpool. To get to little island for me would take about 25minutes then to change to a train and a bus would mean the alternative is longer even if I don't allow any time for waiting for the bus or train or either of these getting delayed themselves. The bus from the train station must get stuck on the quay in the gridlock as well. While I agree there are some alternatives none are practical to be honest.

I'm confused, I thought you said your commute was now much longer? Surely then the alternative would be with trying. Or else just sit for much longer in the car.

macraignil · 30-03-2018 4:27pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

I checked the traffic data Easter week this year versus 2017. Substantially more traffic on the approaches to the tunnel in 2017 than this year. Traffic volumes this week are way below a normal week as well as the comparative time last year.

Then it's amazing how much gridlock has been created by the changes to the traffic management this week. It's not just Patrick Street that has been made inaccessible by the changes to traffic management in the city. The one way system introduced around the west side of the city centre and the removal of slip road access from Henry Street on to Grattan Street are also adding to the problem with reduced options for the motorist to find a quick route through or in and out of the city. The steps the city council have taken are not easing congestion but making it worse. Public transport does not cater for every situation and to pretend it does is ridiculous. The level of rain in Cork means the changes are just going to make miserable mornings and evenings in Cork even more bleak and less like the modern european city delusion the council seems to be pandering to.

namloc1980 · 30-03-2018 4:32pm

Owen wrote: »

Additionally, most European cities don't get the volume of rain we do. Public transport is alright when it's a nice day and you don't mind waiting in line for a bus, a clean, on time bus. But it rains a lot in Ireland, the cost of taking a bus is increasing YoY, and if I'm to be brutally honest comparing our Buses with the ones I saw in Poland last month? There's a whole different scale of service in terms of cleanliness and professionalism.

Copenhagen has similar rainfall to Cork and has significant cycling and public transport usage so that argument doesn't really stand up and is really just an excuse.

macraignil · 30-03-2018 4:33pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

I'm confused, I thought you said your commute was now much longer? Surely then the alternative would be with trying. Or else just sit for much longer in the car.

The morning journey is about 40minutes but now since the Patrick street changes the evening journey is taking about an hour and a half. As I said in a previous post the change is leading to an extra hour stuck in traffic every week day evening. While I appreciate your suggestion of using the car to get to Little island the train from Little island to the train station and the number 5 bus to the Western road, this could in my opinion take longer than the current situation being stuck in gridlock every workday evening. The traffic was not that bad before the changes.

namloc1980 · 30-03-2018 4:52pm

macraignil wrote: »

The morning journey is about 40minutes but now since the Patrick street changes the evening journey is taking about an hour and a half. As I said in a previous post the change is leading to an extra hour stuck in traffic every week day evening. While I appreciate your suggestion of using the car to get to Little island the train from Little island to the train station and the number 5 bus to the Western road, this could in my opinion take longer than the current situation being stuck in gridlock every workday evening. The traffic was not that bad before the changes.

How could it take longer?? 25 minute drive as you said to Little Island, 10 minute train and 20 minute walk to work as you said. Forget the 205. Add in 10 minute wait for the train and you're still home 25 minutes quicker than driving and no traffic stress. Use a Cork bike and you'd be home 35 minutes earlier. That to me would be infinitely better than sitting in a car in traffic. But different strokes and all that I suppose.

Skedaddle · 30-03-2018 5:00pm

Bear in mind that it can take a while for people to re-route. You'll always initially get disruption as people don't necessarily plan very well.

Decent signage advising of alternative routes placed far back, along the routes that would normally feed people into Patrick's Street could be helpful i.e. on the Western Road, on Summer Hill North, etc etc.

MeName · 30-03-2018 5:49pm

This is going to be chaos when the schools and colleges reopen the week after next.

namloc1980 wrote: »

Copenhagen has similar rainfall to Cork and has significant cycling and public transport usage so that argument doesn't really stand up and is really just an excuse.

Do you have links that show this?

Quick googling shows me we get twice as much rain and that Copenhagen is far flatter, their population is also nearly six times more densely packed than Cork with a population of 2 million. I'm not surprised they have better infrastructure.

Skedaddle · 30-03-2018 6:11pm

Copenhagen : 171 to 195 days of rain 640mm
Amsterdam : 117 days of rain 910mm
Dublin 191 days of rain 1080mm
Galway 295 days,
Cork : 265 days 1080mm

Cork is a LOT wetter and much of that is made up by drizzly days.

A lot of Europe gets rain, but it's more like it rains and it stops. A lot of parts of Ireland get almost constant light rain / drizzle for extended periods. That's the stuff that puts people off cycling.

Not only that, but Irish rain is totally unpredictable. So, you can have a day that starts out ok and then turns into damp, and rainy afternoon. So, again that's not too helpful for planning to commute by bike.

It would actually point towards a need for very much better use of comfortable public transport that can deal with those kinds of conditions. A lot of the vehicles used in Ireland aren't air conditioned and end up being damp and horrible when full of wet commuters.

The climate's comparable to Western Norway (but wetter).

So Patrick street is bus only from Thursday 9th August

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