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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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    #1352
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,142 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    That version isn't correct. It is more fan fiction with no basis in the actual facts from the case. Again, filling in the gaps in the story to suit your agenda.

    Well we know the woman was alone with Jackson initially, when Olding entered the room completely uninvited and interrupted a sexual act of some description.

    There's definitely nothing to indicate the woman started out with the intention of having sex with several men. Everyone accepts she was alone with Jackson in the bedroom initially.


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    #1353
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What Parents need to teach their Children is that if you act like an idiot and do foolish things there will be consequences so think before you act.

    I think everyone was wrong in this instance, they acted like complete and utter gobsh1tes and they all got a public lashing and you know what serves them all right perhaps they'll behave themselves and act like sane people in the future and most of all learn a bit of bloody respect.

    I like a drink but If I drank what any of them Woman included I'd be in the hospital, atrocious carry on by all involved.

    I just think if my Sister or Brothers acted like these idiots, I'd be absolutely disgusted.


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    #1354
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,246 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    holyhead wrote: »
    I think society needs to take a long hard look at how men see women. I think men need to show women more respect. A drunk woman should never be seen as an easy target for sex. If anything, respect should demand she be brought to a place of safety to sleep off her hangover not taken advantage of. Although legally cleared, what the men did was morally reprehensible.
    As has been said there are no winners in this tragic case. Hope the girl can pick up the pieces and get on with life. As for the men well their reputation, whatever it amounted too, is destroyed. Silly boys.

    At that point you may as well bring back chaperones. People need to take responsibility for their own actions.


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    #1355
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    givyjoe wrote: »
    Completely putting aside this case, they're are plenty of consenting adults who regularly partake in group sex, from both genders, and no one is defiled.

    Rules are hammered out before hand and there is after care and some modicum of respect shown I assume in most cases where people take part in group sex?


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    #1356
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Doltanian wrote: »
    All this outrage over an alleged assault in which the defendants were found not guilty. Mass rapes are occurring every single day in Germany and Sweden by economic migrants abusing the asylum process posing as refugees. Where is the hashtags for that?
    #120dB

    It didn't get much media traction as it's off message and verging on Wrong-think.


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    #1357
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,778 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    What Parents need to teach their Children is that if you act like an idiot and do foolish things there will be consequences so think before you act.

    I think everyone was wrong in this instance, they acted like complete and utter gobsh1tes and they all got a public lashing and you know what serves them all right perhaps they'll behave themselves and act like sane people in the future and most of all learn a bit of bloody respect.

    I like a drink but If I drank what any of them Woman included I'd be in the hospital, atrocious carry on by all involved.

    I just think if my Sister or Brothers acted like these idiots, I'd be absolutely disgusted.

    George Hook said something similar and got sacked.


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    #1358
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,434 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Respect is a 2 way street, none of them had respect for themselves or each other .

    And the Woman had no respect for herself or the men,

    Seems to me more like she was up for a bit of a good time with the boys and was afraid they were going to video it.

    Basically the whole lot of them are f1cking idiots.

    Society needs to respect all and it needs to teach people to respect themselves first and treat others as they would like to be treated.

    The likes of the trial and RTE's reporting tonight just highlighted societies disrespect and content for Men and that is not good for anyone.

    It's all about Men against Women, Women against Men, I'm sick to death of it.
    If the defendants version of events was true who wasn't respecting who and how? Apart from the WhatsApp chat of course.


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    #1359
    SterlingArcher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,767 ✭✭✭SterlingArcher


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    The Republic of Ireland has the lowest conviction rate in Europe, we clearly have major problems in terms of how we handle rape cases. By the logic of many posters in this thread, 8 out of 10 who report rape in Ireland are lying(9/10 for North) and engaging in 'false accusations', that's not remotely plausible.

    https://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/ireland-has-highest-rate-of-false-rape-allegations-26532287.html

    maybe there is a reason for that low conviction rate. Seems Ireland also has one of the highest rate of false rape allegations too.


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    #1360
    storker
    Registered Users Posts: 5,646 ✭✭✭storker


    The Talking Bread wrote: »
    But you can't say, in a case like this, a trial of 9 weeks put to a jury, that Not Guilty = Factually Innocent ie =Definitely didn't happen.

    That is the point of the mantra of "Not Guilty by jury trial does not equate to innocent"

    Of course not, but as far as the law is concerned, surely they are innocent, being innocent until proven guilty and not having been proven guilty. This is why I said that people need to be clear about what they mean when they use the word "innocent".
    In fact Jackson et al are lucky that the standard of proof is for the jury being required to decide is not whether they are "INNOCENT beyond reasonable doubt". They are not the same thing. The outcome could and indeed would have probably been very different.

    Are there any legal systems in democratic countries that set the burden of proof in this way?


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    #1361
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Doltanian wrote: »
    All this outrage over an alleged assault in which the defendants were found not guilty. Mass rapes are occurring every single day in Germany and Sweden by economic migrants abusing the asylum process posing as refugees. Where is the hashtags for that? Where is the Twitter controversy? Where is the Protests? There is none because in the eyes of the leftist feminists and their male zetacuck supporters it is only White Men especially Middle Class men who are the demons of society to be punished and marginalised. I'm happy the four lads had their good names cleared and I feel sorry for the real victims of sexual assault who get hurt and reminded of their ordeals because of it.

    Careful now ted, can't talk about that........not popular in the media, they won't report it because they're the real fake media and supporters of the establishment RTE included. Have to talk about the Catholics and climate change and trump instead to divert attention to real issues.

    They want to remove mean from society, put them down and remove masculinity to try make us act like women, be quiet and don't show aggression and if your Son speaks out or is a bit wild we got a cure for him, we'll cll his "condition" ADHD medicate him to make him more feminine so he'll sit in the corner and be a good boy !

    Speaking of which, some of the shootings in the U.S were depressed males on ADHD drugs !!!


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    #1362
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    Rules are hammered out before hand and there is after care and some modicum of respect shown I assume in most cases where people take part in group sex?

    Are you telling me or asking me? Perhaps at swingers parties yes. There's plenty of threesomes that happen 'spontaneously' were no rules are 'hammered' out, alcohol is involved and no one is defiled, assaulted or raped (again, this case aside)

    Hang on, after care?!


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    #1363
    GingerLily
    Registered Users Posts: 4,767 ✭✭✭GingerLily


    c.p.w.g.w wrote: »
    A really fear for the future...I've had a number sexual partners were consent was assumed and there was a good bit of alcohol involved...But in this new world I'd probably be guilty of rape.

    Next up consent contracts...Or potentially rewriting laws to suit unhappy women who think men are all evil.

    Or you could just ask them?

    You don't sound mature enough for sex anyway tbh


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    #1364
    BellaMama
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭BellaMama


    An upsetting case for all involved, I would agree with the posters with whom have said it sounds like she thought it became a rape scenario, but its questionable whether the guys did.

    One thing that the prosecuters brought up that I found strange, was that she said Blaine Mcelroy was the worst of the lot, that to me sadly saw that he came in and treated her like absolutely nothing, where as perhaps Jackson, and to a lesser extent Olding werent as horrible, i guess if it was truly rape someone exposing themselves would not be the worst of the lot, at least i think it would be the case.

    Either way horrible situation, and hugely feel for the poor girl, especially being a lot younger then the lads. The lads them selves, rapists perhaps not, but the msgs and the language used about the girl, pretty vile in my mind :(


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    #1365
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    SterlingArcher wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/ireland-has-highest-rate-of-false-rape-allegations-26532287.html

    maybe there is a reason for that low conviction rate. Seems Ireland also has one of the highest rate of false rape allegations too.

    I'd believe the Alcohol bit alright, basically a shower of gobsh1tes getting themselves into bed half drunk ....... can't see how that's all the mans fault as is often portrayed.

    When did common sense leave this Island ?


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    #1366
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I wish I could say it never happens but I've seen it enough.
    I know one girl who two different times cried rape (by someone else) when having a row with her boyfriend.
    I know a girl who came to me all upset about someone making a pass at her, I didn't react as she expected, she went in and sat on his lap, jumped up when I walked in, denied it ever happened.
    I've seen at parties (while ago now) girls absolutely hanging out of lads and straight-up denying it the next day.
    It happens. People lie all the time. I remember someone made a complaint she'd been assaulted by a taxi driver. She gave a licence number to her dad who was going pretty mental and luckily the guy wasn't there. Long story short, he had receipts and the rest from around the time it happened, she changed it and said it must've been a different taxi, later she completely backtracked once the Gardai wanted a statement.
    The Duke Lacrosse case.
    Not a rape but a girl in was it New York, all over the news after Trump won because someone attacked her and something about her headscarf. Didn't happen, she'd been out late and didn't want to get in trouble.

    People lie for all kinds of reasons.


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    #1367
    spookwoman
    Registered Users Posts: 9,922 ✭✭✭spookwoman


    SterlingArcher wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/ireland-has-highest-rate-of-false-rape-allegations-26532287.html

    maybe there is a reason for that low conviction rate. Seems Ireland also has one of the highest rate of false rape allegations too.
    april 2009 9 years ago that article was dated


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    #1368
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    Deleted User wrote:
    They want to remove mean from society, put them down and remove masculinity to try make us act like women, be quiet and don't show aggression and if your Son speaks out or is a bit wild we got a cure for him, we'll cll his "condition" ADHD medicate him to make him more feminine so he'll sit in the corner and be a good boy !

    If you replaced mentions of men with white people and women with black people in your post then you'd sound like Charles Manson.


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    #1369
    Pac1Man
    Registered Users Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭Pac1Man


    Shame on anyone protesting tomorrow.

    Thankfully we have due process for situations like this. That has been the real winner here. The fact that the jury didn't baulk under the obvious social pressure and delivered their verdict based on the evidence alone leaves a nice taste in my mouth.

    Anyone protesting is basically looking for a totalitarian society where a ruling should be issued based on how a situation looks while ignoring the evidence. They can go fuk themselves.

    Have a look back throughout history and even today to see how well a society like that works out.

    They are not decent lads but that has absolutely nothing to do with this case.


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    #1370
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    washman3 wrote: »
    Good post. When the judge informed the jury that she would only accept a unanimous verdict the writing was on the wall.
    For the men to be found guilty, all 11 jurors would have to agree.
    Is it entirely possible that a few jurors or maybe just a single one insisted from the outset that his/her mind was made up and wasn't for turning so a unanimous guilty verdict wasn't possible.
    It is extremely unlikely that all 11 jurors agreed the defendants were not guilty.
    Maybe a juror will give a 'tabloid interview' in the future.

    I think you are wrong on this. The judge required a unanimous verdict. That verdict was not guilty.


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    #1371
    deandean
    Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭deandean


    Has anyone got an idea as to what'll happen will happen with the legal costs here?
    I understand that the Crown Prosecution Service took the case so the complainant will not have any legal costs.
    The four defendants surely have rung up bills of a couple of hundred thousand each.
    Were they on legal aid?
    I think it would be ruinous for them if they had to pay thair own legal costs even though they have been found not guilty.


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    #1372
    storker
    Registered Users Posts: 5,646 ✭✭✭storker


    holyhead wrote: »
    I think society some men need to take a long hard look at how men they see women.

    Fixed your post to remove the sexism.


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    #1373
    podmu80
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭podmu80


    There's a convicted rapist playing for waterford United is there not? Out of the country at the time, but did that get much coverage? Surely that is something to be outraged by no?


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    #1374
    Corholio
    Registered Users Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Corholio


    Doltanian wrote: »
    All this outrage over an alleged assault in which the defendants were found not guilty. Mass rapes are occurring every single day in Germany and Sweden by economic migrants abusing the asylum process posing as refugees. Where is the hashtags for that? Where is the Twitter controversy? Where is the Protests? There is none because in the eyes of the leftist feminists and their male zetacuck supporters it is only White Men especially Middle Class men who are the demons of society to be punished and marginalised. I'm happy the four lads had their good names cleared and I feel sorry for the real victims of sexual assault who get hurt and reminded of their ordeals because of it.

    There was plenty of media coverage about those cases here and across Europe. Is it a surprise a case in Ireland involving Irish people is getting coverage in Ireland? I always hear this stuff after anything that happens here about 'oh where was all the press about this event in a foreign place' despite there being a lot of press about said event, just at not any specific time someone may want to use.


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    #1375
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    _Whimsical_ wrote: »
    The defence also had a raft of holes in it.

    During his police interview Blane McIlroy ,who was only accused of exposing himself during the incident ,actually told police he had full sex with the woman that night.

    She and every other man present said Blane had not touched her.

    Just think about that.

    How did that happen? You don't generally tend to mistake walking into a room with taking part in group sex and having full sex.

    I think that clearly pointed to the men involved creating a story about what happened that night. It strongly suggests that they had rehersed something, allocated themselves roles in a consensual act and Blane had somehow confused his role in the story.

    If they were completely innocent, if the first they'd heard of this girl being raped was when the police called they'd all have told the truth without hesitation.

    There may not have been sufficient evidence to secure a conviction beyond all reasonable doubt, which is a very high threshold. There is more than enough evidence though to leave any thinking person feeling very uneasy about the legitimacy of this groups defense.

    Yes the Blane story, when I heard that I thought 'gotcha' because it would be better to state that he was involved in a consensual act than standing at the door exposing himself.

    Would she not have accused him of rape if ,his story was true and he was involved? Why would the lads not say he was there if he had been?
    I thought it all pointed to him being at the door.

    They were loaded with drink I believe they could have been capable of anything.


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    #1376
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    podmu80 wrote: »
    There's a convicted rapist playing for waterford United is there not? Out of the country at the time, but did that get much coverage? Surely that is something to be outraged by no?

    Yeah but he's black so he doesn't fit the target "type". He jokes about it on twitter as well.


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    #1377
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BellaMama wrote: »

    One thing that the prosecuters brought up that I found strange, was that she said Blaine Mcelroy was the worst of the lot, that to me sadly saw that he came in and treated her like absolutely nothing, where as perhaps Jackson, and to a lesser extent Olding werent as horrible, i guess if it was truly rape someone exposing themselves would not be the worst of the lot, at least i think it would be the case.

    I think this Woman and Boys would want to learn a bit of self respect, what kind of carry on is that, imagine their future Children reading this story online ? the cloud never forgets !!!

    God help their children , and you know what , they'll probably teach them to be just as stupid.


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    #1378
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    Could you imagine the outcry if it came out that this claim was made and they didn’t charge these guys. Even if her story didn’t match up it’s far easier for them to allow a jury make that decision.

    True, so I wonder is there more to this jeremiad .
    I dont know who she is, not do I want to, but not many people I know have CCTV of their homes. i wonder is she "well to do", and other actors were at play in pushing this. bringing it to court smacks of the cops/CPS "sure we gave it a lash".

    the only witness said it didnt look like rape, the lads said they didnt rape her.
    the fact that it took 4 hours deliberation suggests the jury were confident it was not rape.


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    #1379
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    py2006 wrote: »
    It also possibly highlights what appears to be the increasing, "if you regret sex, you've been raped", thought process creeping out of feminist gender studies US college campus blah blah

    Evidence for this please.


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    #1380
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Pac1Man wrote: »
    Shame on anyone protesting tomorrow.

    Thankfully we have due process for situations like this. That has been the real winner here. The fact that the jury didn't baulk under the obvious social pressure and delivered their verdict based on the evidence alone leaves a nice taste in my mouth.

    Anyone protesting is basically looking for a totalitarian society where a ruling should be issued based on how a situation looks while ignoring the evidence. They can go fuk themselves.

    Have a look back throughout history and even today to see how well a society like that works out.

    They are not decent lads but that has absolutely nothing to do with this case.
    Agree, the last line is especially pertinent. It's not against the law to be an arrogant asshole.

    We judge crimes based on facts and evidence not the defendants personality.


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    #1381
    spookwoman
    Registered Users Posts: 9,922 ✭✭✭spookwoman


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yeah but he's black so he doesn't fit the target "type". He jokes about it on twitter as well.

    Didn't know that and i cannot see anything on line about it.


This discussion has been closed.
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