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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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Comments

  • #392
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    blindside88 wrote: »
    For those commenting “not guilty isn’t the same as innocent”, does this mean that if someone is accused of something they can automatically never be innocent of it? Even if there is no evidence against them? Because after all “not guilty isn’t the same as innocent”

    If you’re accused of murdering someone and found not guilty it equates that you are innocent of the crime, why not in the case of rape?

    Unfortunately that is the way our society works

    These guys will never be innocent. Even if they are


  • #393
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    Oh, well at least I don't need to backtrack on my comment.

    Never changing your mind is a sign of power and strength.


  • #394
    hawkelady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭hawkelady


    francois wrote: »
    Whatever one's feelings about the verdict, their private whatsapp messages, as produced in court, were disrespectful and showed them to have a very low opinion of women.

    You aren't in any whatsapp groups , are you???


  • #395
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    francois wrote: »
    Whatever one's feelings about the verdict, their private whatsapp messages, as produced in court, were disrespectful and showed them to have a very low opinion of women.

    Who cares????

    Thats not a crime

    What they were FALSELY accused of is


  • #396
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,474 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Berserker wrote: »
    How can you possibly come to that conclusion? Are you familiar with the jury selection process?

    The selection process is irrelevant.
    I come to that conclusion from sitting on a number of them and witnessing people not grasp the basics of what they are being asked.

    Its not "do you think they are guilty" its "do you think the prosecution have proved BRD that they are guilty".

    Many fail to understand this and fall back on "sure look at him, of course he did it" or my previous example of "the Gards only arrested him because they know he did it", "he has previous convictions" etc, etc.

    I was on a particular case where the accused was convicted solely on the basis of CC video footage that had the resolution of a potato.
    "they Garda have ways of enhancing it":(


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  • #397
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #398
    facehugger99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,821 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    Aegir wrote: »
    no, it is this attitude that women deserve no respect that gives young men the green light to behave in this manner.

    just looking at this forum really makes me fear for the future. We seem to have a generation of young men that feel they are under threat, be it being asked to stand for a pregnant woman on a Dart, do the same job as a woman and earn the same money, or not be able to pull a train on a woman when they feel like it.

    it scares me

    It's primarily a result of internet demographics. These attitudes aren't as pronounced in real life thankfully.

    It is concerning though.


  • #399
    storker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,712 ✭✭✭storker


    retro:electro wrote: »
    You have the presumption of innocence up until the verdict where you are either found guilty or not guilty. You can’t prove innocence, you can only prove guilt.

    ...in which case the presumption of innocence must still apply, surely, as guilt has not been proven, and the principle is "innocent until proven guilty" and not "innocent until the verdict".


  • #400
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Never changing your mind is a sign of power and strength.

    My comment is somewhat irrelevant to the post it replied to but it's still applicable that it is not uncommon for girls to like being treated like a piece of meat in sex and even to have gang bang fantasies. Nothing wrong with that but for some people, the notion that girls would let themselves be degraded is wrong when it's just sex and women can have fantasies in the same way as men.


  • #401
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,890 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Figured that.

    What about the 4th guy?

    Never mind, found it.

    He is accused of knowing that she was raped and lying to the cops by saying that she wasn't that upset.


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  • #402
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    francois wrote: »
    Whatever one's feelings about the verdict, their private whatsapp messages, as produced in court, were disrespectful and showed them to have a very low opinion of women.

    I've said some outrageous things in private messages to close friends. If other people saw them, they could accuse me of racism (even though I am not racist), homophobic (even though I'm not homophobic) and downright nasty (even though I am not a nasty person)

    These messages were intended to be private and told to people who would "get" my humour and the context of the words I was saying, not for them to be taken at face value.

    I'm sure there are some fb or text messages that you have sent that if read out loud by people who didn't know you, would mortify you.

    Judging people on a private conversation is not fair


  • #403
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I doubt it to be honest. Women will stay well clear and think "they are a rapist".

    Its not women I would even be talking about though. Its how their friends and family react. Some that would have been close friends might not be as close anymore because of doubts.


  • #404
    torqtorq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 181 ✭✭torqtorq


    david75 wrote: »
    Apparently the judge in the case has previous and oversaw a trial where a guy raped a 12 year old got her pregnant and somehow walked out free from the court.
    He pretty much instructed this jury to find these lads innocent.

    Personally I believe her.

    You are a nasty bit of work!

    You come on here to pass on derogatory innuendo on the Judge yet you evidently are not even aware that the Judge was a woman.

    And as for the 2 imbeciles that have thanked you!


  • #405
    Captain Flaps
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,834 ✭✭✭Captain Flaps


    ChikiChiki wrote: »
    How the bloody hell can you feel sorry for a liar??

    Not guilty doesn't mean the accuser was lying, and it doesn't mean the jury didn't believe her version of events. It means that the evidence to back up the claims was not found to be conclusive.

    I have no opinion regarding the result. It's just worth remembering that not guilty does not mean didn't do it.

    If there's an appeal and they're subsequently found guilty does the accuser suddenly become 'not a liar'?


  • #406
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Given the deeply misogynistic attitudes displayed by 'the lads', I think they can count themselves lucky they haven't suffered a worse outcome

    Being a misogynist does not make you a rapist. It should have no bearing on the outcome of the trial.


  • #407
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    Mr.H wrote:
    Try that as an accused


    I'm not saying being accused is a walk in the park, I'm saying that your claims that it is a fact that being accused is worse than being raped is ridiculous and offensive. Your arguments lead me to believe that you are not looking at it widely enough. For one, you are assuming that every rape victim comes forward to seek help and support. What about somebody who was raped and never told anybody, just bottled it up? You said something very careless and you should admit that you were wrong or, at the very least, worded it wrong.


  • #408
    Christy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Who cares????

    Thats not a crime

    What they were FALSELY accused of is

    Courts only show not guilty. Not that the accusation is false. Thus legally she has not made a false allegation. Innocent till proven guilty also applies to her.

    You can also think someone who has not broken the law is a scumbag!


  • #409
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mr.H wrote: »
    I doubt it to be honest. Women will stay well clear and think "they are a rapist".

    Its not women I would even be talking about though. Its how their friends and family react. Some that would have been close friends might not be as close anymore because of doubts.

    He is relatively good looking and has a few bob.


    He will be grand.


  • #410
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    They may not be guilty of rape, but they haven't come out of this looking good.

    I would be ashamed of my life if any of them was my son or brother. We certainly got an insight into the sordid way they conduct themselves and view women. Any woman getting involved with them after this must be mad.


  • #411
    ligerdub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭ligerdub


    The usual stuff comes out after nearly every ruling. "Not guilty does not mean innocent". Yes it does, that's exactly what it means. It might not fall into your highly subjective, potentially even puritanical for all I know criteria, but the only one that matters is that legally they are innocent.

    There was no rape here.....end of story.

    You can dislike them all you want for their behaviour, fine, don't be their friends. For what it's worth, one of the 4 couldn't have done more for her on her way home, and he certainly doesn't deserve to be painted as lucky to be walking free today.

    No matter the outcome here, it was always going to be spun in a way which tries to spin men as deviants and aggressive, and the standard misogyny line. Can we move on from this sort of facile tactic?

    These lads could have faced serious jailtime for this, and they've faced a serious setback to their reputation and potentially their playing careers from this. I just hope they can resume their careers and be allowed get on with it, and similarly I hope the accuser also finds a way forward for her own life.

    Hopefully those idiots who were calling for Rory Best to step down as Ireland captain and booed him during the 6 Nations can cop themselves on. There's a guy who got slaughtered when he did absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever.


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  • #412
    C__MC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭C__MC


    Mc ilroy was probably the luckiest to get off, reminded me of jay from inbetweeners at times when he was in the dock. But then again the girl gave 3 different recollections of what he did that night.


  • #413
    Laneyh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 757 ✭✭✭Laneyh


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Figured that.

    What about the 4th guy?

    He accompanied the girl when she left the house. Dropped her home in a taxi
    She stated she had no issue / complaint against him
    but based on WhatsApp and text messages he made (possibly also his initial police statement) he was accused of perverting the course of justice.

    He sent messages to the girl saying keep your chin up - she replied what happened wasn't consensual.
    It appears sometime after that he gave the other 3 the heads up on this.
    I'm surprised you don't already know this. the trial ran for 9 weeks and every detail was poured over in the press.


  • #414
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    My comment is somewhat irrelevant to the post it replied to but it's still applicable that it is not uncommon for girls to like being treated like a piece of meat in sex and even to have gang bang fantasies. Nothing wrong with that but for some people, the notion that girls would let themselves be degraded is wrong when it's just sex and women can have fantasies in the same way as men.
    Certainly.


  • #415
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Sidebaro wrote: »
    I'm not saying being accused is a walk in the park, I'm saying that your claims that it is a fact that being accused is worse than being raped is ridiculous and offensive. Your arguments lead me to believe that you are not looking at it widely enough. For one, you are assuming that every rape victim comes forward to seek help and support. What about somebody who was raped and never told anybody, just bottled it up? You said something very careless and you should admit that you were wrong or, at the very least, worded it wrong.

    I am saying that EVERY rape victim is involved in a crime

    Where EVERY wrongfully accused is not

    One is a crime. The other is a made up crime.

    The made up crime yes is worse because there was no crime committed!!


  • #416
    Boom_Bap
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    francois wrote: »
    Whatever one's feelings about the verdict, their private whatsapp messages, as produced in court, were disrespectful and showed them to have a very low opinion of women.

    I'm in a few different WhatsApp groups with different lads and there is some awful stuff in them if they were to be read out of the context of the group.

    I've also had the pleasure of reading through one of the missus' all female whatsapp groups and there is similar stuff in there that read out of context of the group would sound disgraceful.

    It's the 'private' word that you are skipping over and that these chats are expected to be private. There is also a group dynamic created over the life of the group chat. I'm sure it didn't start out that way for the lads involved.


  • #417
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ligerdub wrote: »
    The usual stuff comes out after nearly every ruling. "Not guilty does not mean innocent". Yes it does, that's exactly what it means. It might not fall into your highly subjective, potentially even puritanical for all I know criteria, but the only one that matters is that legally they are innocent.
    Legalese is not the same as English.
    There was no rape here.....end of story.
    Sure Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman are probably sunning themselves on a beach in Belize.


  • #418
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    I suspect the excessive consumption of drink on all sides had a big part to play in this sad sorry case.


  • #419
    Mokuba
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭Mokuba


    It shows how much attention that some people are paying to the trial - when they make statements like "everyone knows who she is now" or "pictures of her have been flying about".

    I have been told a name or seen pictures by lots of different groups of friends, on twitter, on another forum.

    In every single case, they were sharing the information of the female key witness and not the accuser.

    So no, I'm not accepting that people know who she is. They don't.


  • #420
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Courts only show not guilty. Not that the accusation is false. Thus legally she has not made a false allegation. Innocent till proven guilty also applies to her.

    You can also think someone who has not broken the law is a scumbag!

    I didnt say she made a false accusation. In fact thats what my argument is about.

    I said I hope it wasnt a false accusation because if it was it is worse than the crime IMO
    Edz87 wrote: »
    He is relatively good looking and has a few bob.


    He will be grand.

    Great attitude.

    And what about the other lads??


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  • #421
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Bunny12345 wrote: »
    It doesn't matter that they were acquitted - they are still guilty #ibelieveher

    People like this are the problem with our society


This discussion has been closed.
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