Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

end of the road · 16-03-2018 08:00PM

it's definitely a no

Timberrrrrrrr · 16-03-2018 08:37PM

end of the road wrote: »

it's definitely a no

And yet hundreds of thousands will and the 8th will be repealed. Now I'm sure.you will come back with your usual drivel but the fact of the matter is that momentum is on the repeal side.

end of the road · 16-03-2018 08:46PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And yet hundreds of thousands will and the 8th will be repealed. Now I'm sure.you will come back with your usual drivel but the fact of the matter is that momentum is on the repeal side.

there is no real tangible evidence for that. the reality is we do not know which way the vote will go. marches and opinion poles are something only a minority of people will ultimately take part in so aren't enough to gage anything really.
a lot of people are silent on their views, and there is a bit of a back-clash around the world at the moment against eliberalism/libtardism, so that may have a part to play in the vote also.

david75 · 16-03-2018 08:55PM

end of the road wrote: »

there is no real tangible evidence for that. the reality is we do not know which way the vote will go. marches and opinion poles are something only a minority of people will ultimately take part in so aren't enough to gage anything really.
a lot of people are silent on their views, and there is a bit of a back-clash around the world at the moment against eliberalism/libtardism, so that may have a part to play in the vote also.

SO the poster who wants to save DS babies just used the word libtard.

The level of utter stupidity and hypocrisy from the pro lifers never ever ceases to make me laugh.

Graces7 · 16-03-2018 09:01PM

volchitsa wrote: »

This Hippocratic oath mythologizing again. Your own link says that it banned surgery (use of the knife) so hardly something to be copied directly.

Not only that, the link also says : "The Oath's prohibition of abortion is also not found in contemporary medical texts. The Hippocratic text On the Nature of the Child contains a description of an abortion, without any implication that it was morally wrong,[13] and descriptions of abortifacient medications are numerous in the ancient medical literature.[14] "

So not all that clearcut at all then.

In reality most doctors in Ireland do not take the Hippocratic Oath
https://www.imt.ie/opinion/guest-posts/what-does-the-hippocratic-oath-mean-24-04-2009/

Graces7 · 16-03-2018 09:11PM

Lisa Billions Gum wrote: »

Maybe.

Speaking as a Catholic, always NO

Articles 2270 onwards in our Catechism are uncompromising.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

pilly · 16-03-2018 09:14PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The answer to the question that is the title of the thread is YES, a christian CAN vote to repeal the 8th if they want. That's a fact so I wish people would stop telling lies.

A christian can vote whatever way they like in this referendum or not vote at all because we're not members of a cult thankfully.

We have free choice.

end of the road · 16-03-2018 09:23PM

david75 wrote: »

SO the poster who wants to save DS babies just used the word libtard.

The level of utter stupidity and hypocrisy from the pro lifers never ever ceases to make me laugh.

if it was true then i'd agree it would amaze us. it's not.

pilly wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The answer to the question that is the title of the thread is YES, a christian CAN vote to repeal the 8th if they want. That's a fact so I wish people would stop telling lies.

A christian can vote whatever way they like in this referendum or not vote at all because we're not members of a cult thankfully.

We have free choice.

the discussion and the question is whether a christian can morally vote for the killing of the unborn though. there is no debate that one can legally vote whatever way they want, or not vote at all.

pilly · 16-03-2018 09:25PM

end of the road wrote:

the discussion and the question is whether a christian can morally vote for the killing of the unborn though. there is no debate that one can legally vote whatever way they want, or not vote at all.

Read the thread title again EOTR.

pilly · 16-03-2018 09:30PM

Graces7 wrote:

Speaking as a Catholic, always NO

1. This is about Christians apparently, not Catholics.

2. Nobody's asking you to have an abortion so that's that problem solved. You won't have to kill anyone.

end of the road · 16-03-2018 09:33PM

pilly wrote: »

1. This is about Christians apparently, not Catholics.

2. Nobody's asking you to have an abortion so that's that problem solved. You won't have to kill anyone.

except it's not problem solved as people will be able to kill human beings just because they are inconvenient.

Timberrrrrrrr · 16-03-2018 09:40PM

end of the road wrote: »

there is no real tangible evidence for that. the reality is we do not know which way the vote will go. marches and opinion poles are something only a minority of people will ultimately take part in so aren't enough to gage anything really.
a lot of people are silent on their views, and there is a bit of a back-clash around the world at the moment against eliberalism/libtardism, so that may have a part to play in the vote also.

Thanks for proving me right.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And yet hundreds of thousands will and the 8th will be repealed. Now I'm sure.you will come back with your usual drivel but the fact of the matter is that momentum is on the repeal side.

end of the road · 16-03-2018 09:54PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Thanks for proving me right.

i haven't proved your point. there is no real tangible evidence that the 8th will or won't be repealed, or that momentum is on the repeal or non-repeal side. the reality is we do not know which way the vote will go. marches and opinion poles are something only a minority of people will ultimately take part in so aren't enough to gage anything really.
a lot of people are silent on their views, and there is a bit of a back-clash around the world at the moment against eliberalism/libtardism, so that may have a part to play in the vote as well, meaning a huge no vote is possible. but only the vote will tell us, so trying to predict the vote is futile.

Timberrrrrrrr · 16-03-2018 10:13PM

end of the road wrote: »

i haven't proved your point. there is no real tangible evidence that the 8th will or won't be repealed, or that momentum is on the repeal or non-repeal side. the reality is we do not know which way the vote will go. marches and opinion poles are something only a minority of people will ultimately take part in so aren't enough to gage anything really.
a lot of people are silent on their views, and there is a bit of a back-clash around the world at the moment against eliberalism/libtardism, so that may have a part to play in the vote as well, meaning a huge no vote is possible. but only the vote will tell us, so trying to predict the vote is futile.

Copy/paste drivel

david75 · 16-03-2018 10:14PM

EOTR you are both a hypocrite and the worst kind of fool.

From another thread.
This morning I got thinking about all this debate. I thought about the few people I know who had diagnosed FFA pregnancies and who choose to carry to term.

One couple has a child now with significant & severe special needs. Another got a few precious days with their baby. Others were born sleeping. In all of those cases, the couples involved got amazing care from hospital staff, or from organisations such as Feilecain. Other professionals in their fields have donated their time or their skills to try to give a couple reeling during incredibly painful time some lasting memories. There were photographers giving them precious photos, seamstresses and knitters making delicate beautiful gowns for their babies to give you just a couple of examples of what folk do for newly bereaved parents.

Down the line, I've seen the difficulty with the actual reality of having a disabled child who survived from a FFA diagnosis. The endless appointments, therapies and hospital stays far away from home. Waiting on multiple waiting lists. Home help. Respite care. Home nursing. Wheelchair ramps. Adaptable cars. Hoists, adult nappies, adaptation of homes and furniture to accommodate a disabled growing child. There are various organisations, charities and HSE outpatient supports that help parents with some of this but it's still a daily struggle.

But I wondered where LoveBoth were in all of that? In the beginning to support people going through that pregnancy? Afterwards when the baby was born?

Not once did I ever hear, out of all of the organisations that supported my friends, that the service or assistance the parents of a special needs baby was provided by LoveBoth. Not so much as a baby hat. I wondered what they actually do for the babies they love so much. Maybe they provide bereavement counselling I thought. Or helped with funeral costs? Or maybe they offer a NICU nurse support so they could briefly bring their baby home for a few days? I was sure that they offer some sort of help...because they love both, right?

So I googled to check. And they don't appear to provide a thing. Not a single link to a support or a service for a crisis pregnancy, rape, FFA, or post-natal supports.

Absolutely nothing. Love Both my arse.

pilly · 16-03-2018 10:16PM

end of the road wrote:

except it's not problem solved as people will be able to kill human beings just because they are inconvenient.

For some reason even though I have you on ignore your posts still show up on my phone so I'd appreciate it if you'd discontinue quoting me because I'm not conversing any longer with your lunacy.

end of the road · 16-03-2018 10:52PM

david75 wrote: »

EOTR you are both a hypocrite and the worst kind of fool.

nope wrong. i'm neither a fool or hypocrite.

david75 wrote: »

From another thread.
This morning I got thinking about all this debate. I thought about the few people I know who had diagnosed FFA pregnancies and who choose to carry to term.

One couple has a child now with significant & severe special needs. Another got a few precious days with their baby. Others were born sleeping. In all of those cases, the couples involved got amazing care from hospital staff, or from organisations such as Feilecain. Other professionals in their fields have donated their time or their skills to try to give a couple reeling during incredibly painful time some lasting memories. There were photographers giving them precious photos, seamstresses and knitters making delicate beautiful gowns for their babies to give you just a couple of examples of what folk do for newly bereaved parents.

Down the line, I've seen the difficulty with the actual reality of having a disabled child who survived from a FFA diagnosis. The endless appointments, therapies and hospital stays far away from home. Waiting on multiple waiting lists. Home help. Respite care. Home nursing. Wheelchair ramps. Adaptable cars. Hoists, adult nappies, adaptation of homes and furniture to accommodate a disabled growing child. There are various organisations, charities and HSE outpatient supports that help parents with some of this but it's still a daily struggle.

But I wondered where LoveBoth were in all of that? In the beginning to support people going through that pregnancy? Afterwards when the baby was born?

Not once did I ever hear, out of all of the organisations that supported my friends, that the service or assistance the parents of a special needs baby was provided by LoveBoth. Not so much as a baby hat. I wondered what they actually do for the babies they love so much. Maybe they provide bereavement counselling I thought. Or helped with funeral costs? Or maybe they offer a NICU nurse support so they could briefly bring their baby home for a few days? I was sure that they offer some sort of help...because they love both, right?

So I googled to check. And they don't appear to provide a thing. Not a single link to a support or a service for a crisis pregnancy, rape, FFA, or post-natal supports.

Absolutely nothing. Love Both my arse.

love both is a tiny part of the pro-life campaign. there are plenty of other groups and people involved in all sorts of issues from campaigning to helping others.

pilly wrote: »

For some reason even though I have you on ignore your posts still show up on my phone so I'd appreciate it if you'd discontinue quoting me because I'm not conversing any longer with your lunacy.

there is no lunacy from me. if you don't wish to debate with me that's perfectly fine but i'm not going to ignore you. we are adults after all.

Turtwig · 16-03-2018 11:41PM

MOD:

Folks, this is a sensitive topic that people have passionate opinions about. Even if you disagree with the opinion of the person, please treat them with dignity. Where possible, please endeavour to avoid disdain or contempt towards another person. Please refrain from language like libtard, hypocrit. It isn't conducive to a healthy discussion and ultimately this ethical issue is surely deserving of the highest standards of discussion possible.

Please cut out the personal snipes and inflammatory remarks.

Thanks:)

Turtwig

Graces7 · 17-03-2018 05:25AM

pilly wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The answer to the question that is the title of the thread is YES, a christian CAN vote to repeal the 8th if they want. That's a fact so I wish people would stop telling lies.

A christian can vote whatever way they like in this referendum or not vote at all because we're not members of a cult thankfully.

We have free choice.

Please define "Christian". No we do not have the freedom in any branch of Christianity to disobey the commandments .

"Thou shalt not kill" is pretty simple

And from the beginnings of Christianity, abortion is specifically forbidden very clearly.

Graces7 · 17-03-2018 05:28AM

david75 wrote: »

EOTR you are both a hypocrite and the worst kind of fool.

From another thread.
This morning I got thinking about all this debate. I thought about the few people I know who had diagnosed FFA pregnancies and who choose to carry to term.

One couple has a child now with significant & severe special needs. Another got a few precious days with their baby. Others were born sleeping. In all of those cases, the couples involved got amazing care from hospital staff, or from organisations such as Feilecain. Other professionals in their fields have donated their time or their skills to try to give a couple reeling during incredibly painful time some lasting memories. There were photographers giving them precious photos, seamstresses and knitters making delicate beautiful gowns for their babies to give you just a couple of examples of what folk do for newly bereaved parents.

Down the line, I've seen the difficulty with the actual reality of having a disabled child who survived from a FFA diagnosis. The endless appointments, therapies and hospital stays far away from home. Waiting on multiple waiting lists. Home help. Respite care. Home nursing. Wheelchair ramps. Adaptable cars. Hoists, adult nappies, adaptation of homes and furniture to accommodate a disabled growing child. There are various organisations, charities and HSE outpatient supports that help parents with some of this but it's still a daily struggle.

But I wondered where LoveBoth were in all of that? In the beginning to support people going through that pregnancy? Afterwards when the baby was born?

Not once did I ever hear, out of all of the organisations that supported my friends, that the service or assistance the parents of a special needs baby was provided by LoveBoth. Not so much as a baby hat. I wondered what they actually do for the babies they love so much. Maybe they provide bereavement counselling I thought. Or helped with funeral costs? Or maybe they offer a NICU nurse support so they could briefly bring their baby home for a few days? I was sure that they offer some sort of help...because they love both, right?

So I googled to check. And they don't appear to provide a thing. Not a single link to a support or a service for a crisis pregnancy, rape, FFA, or post-natal supports.

Absolutely nothing. Love Both my arse.

Replied to you on the other thread; a tirade that has no foundation in the real love so many parents give freely and without the self pity you write here. Parents who cherish their child. Selfless love. After all, they could have one to the UK.... They chose freely and in love to keep that damaged, beautiful child.

Graces7 · 17-03-2018 05:30AM

pilly wrote: »

1. This is about Christians apparently, not Catholics.

2. Nobody's asking you to have an abortion so that's that problem solved. You won't have to kill anyone.

???? this makes no sense.

volchitsa · 17-03-2018 08:43AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Replied to you on the other thread; a tirade that has no foundation in the real love so many parents give freely and without the self pity you write here. Parents who cherish their child. Selfless love. After all, they could have one to the UK.... They chose freely and in love to keep that damaged, beautiful child.

So you're saying people do have choice in Ireland because they can go to the UK? And you portray that a good thing.

So what is wrong with them having that choice in Ireland?

Timberrrrrrrr · 17-03-2018 09:42AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Please define "Christian". No we do not have the freedom in any branch of Christianity to disobey the commandments .

"Thou shalt not kill" is pretty simple

And from the beginnings of Christianity, abortion is specifically forbidden very clearly.

Most Christians will break most of the 10 commandments at some time in thier lives and will break some of them on an almost daily basis.

smacl · 17-03-2018 10:03AM

Graces7 wrote: »

"Thou shalt not kill" is pretty simple

Until you look at the concept of just war and look at the huge numbers the Christians slaughtered in defence of their faith over the years, and the fact that Christians still become soldiers and law enforcement agents that will be involved in killing as a matter of course. Outside of war, Christians have been also killing as a form of punishment for centuries and still continue to do so in some jurisdictions. While I've no figures, I wouldn't imagine those involved in lethal crime are exclusively non-Christian either, and would suggest that Christians are no more or less prone to killing people than anyone else.

Onward, Christian Soldiers.....

uck51js9zml2yt · 17-03-2018 11:18AM

So Regina Doherty was ignorant and is now pro abortion.She is also putting out the idea of a second referendum if the "correct" result isn't given..
Now where have I seen that before?

Smacks of desperation to me.what happened to democracy?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/repeal-campaigners-will-not-accept-a-no-vote-says-minister-1.3430112?mode=amp

Delirium · 17-03-2018 11:47AM

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

So Regina Doherty was ignorant and is now pro abortion.She is also putting out the idea of a second referendum if the "correct" result isn't given..
Now where have I seen that before?

Smacks of desperation to me.what happened to democracy?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/repeal-campaigners-will-not-accept-a-no-vote-says-minister-1.3430112%3fmode=amp

How is it undemocratic to continue to campaign for repeal if the vote is no in the referendum?

I would presume that many pro-life people won't abandon what they see as their moral responsibility to protect the unborn if repeal happens.

Personally, I would see it as a part of a democracy to campaign for the changes you want in your country, even if one vote doesn't go your way.

uck51js9zml2yt · 17-03-2018 02:56PM

Delirium wrote: »

How is it undemocratic to continue to campaign for repeal if the vote is no in the referendum?

I would presume that many pro-life people won't abandon what they see as their moral responsibility to protect the unborn if repeal happens.

Personally, I would see it as a part of a democracy to campaign for the changes you want in your country, even if one vote doesn't go your way.

I can't speak for all pro life groups so
If it's passed, in my view it's passed. I mightn't like it but the people will have spoken.
Looking for the so called right decision in a second vote by either group is trying to tell the people you don't know what you really want.....try again.
Brings me back to the Nice treaty..or was it Lisbon?
We need to be grown up and respect the wishes of the majority. That's how a democracy works.

Delirium · 17-03-2018 03:27PM

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

I can't speak for all pro life groups so
If it's passed, in my view it's passed. I mightn't like it but the people will have spoken.
Looking for the so called right decision in a second vote by either group is trying to tell the people you don't know what you really want.....try again.
Brings me back to the Nice treaty..or was it Lisbon?
We need to be grown up and respect the wishes of the majority. That's how a democracy works.

And if the majority view changes, the democracy allows the citizens to revisit the issue. That's how we've arrived at the upcoming referendum after all.

There was a vote in the 80s and now there's enough support to warrant another vote on the issue. Democracy in action.

david75 · 17-03-2018 03:42PM

Interesting to see us talking about democracy when the pro life campaign have hired the same company that hijacked the democratic process both in brexit and the US election.

uck51js9zml2yt · 17-03-2018 04:03PM

david75 wrote: »

Interesting to see us talking about democracy when the pro life campaign have hired the same company that hijacked the democratic process both in brexit and the US election.

You really like lumping everyone together , don't you?

It's not like amnesty have broken any rules or anything like taking foreign money which is nothing but a foreign individual seeking to influence a national debate.

Delerium. It's not a case of a change of mind at some future date, after all we've seen that happen in several debates over the years. It's looks very much like being told the answer was wrong. Vote the right way next time.
Interesting that the repeal side are already considering a possible defeat:)

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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