Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

NuMarvel wrote: »

It would seem that the GPs objections aren't on moral grounds about women being able to access abortion, but about practical issues around training and resources for providing the service. Similar issues were raised by one of the GP unions.

These are certainly important issues for consideration in the development of the service after repeal, but the key issue for voters to consider when it comes to vote on the 8th is that a clear majority of GPs polled favour repeal.

Its more like classical morality shifting ... 'I won't do it myself ... but I'll let others do it.'
It's the same as saying, I would never drink and drive myself ... but I don't mind if other people do so.

If it involves the killing of Human Beings and you wouldn't do it yourself, you cannot morally justify others doing it.

There is both a moral and a practical reason for adopting this principle when it comes to killing ... the moral reason is obvious ... don't do (or allow others to do), what you wouldn't want to be done unto yourself ... and the practical reason for doing so ... is that you could become the victim of the killing that you tolerate others engaging in.
Once a 'culture of death' becomes established in a society ... then nobody is safe ... if we start killing unborn children because they have some deficiency, like cleft palate or Downs Syndrome ... then we shouldn't be surprised if we are told that we will be killed, to make a hospital bed available to some more 'deserving' case ... because we have a serious illness that has a terminal prognosis or for which significant medical resourses are required. We may not even be told ... the medical protocols may simply mandate that hydration or intensive care may be withdrawn, from us in these circumstances.

GPs will also have to take into account that they may not be able to 'opt out' of abortion, if it is introduced, without significant affects on their careers ... or possibly worse, if it became regarded as malpractice for doctors not to prescribe abortion pills, for a woman who asks for them.
... so GPs may be the one group in society who may not actually be able to not do it themselves, if abortion is introduced. It's called being 'hoist upon your own petard', if some GPs support repeal of the 8th ... but then refuse to prescrible abortion pills for conscience reasons.

Delirium wrote: »

If you read the article, why didn't call JC on their obvious cherry-picking of the article?

For someone who recently defended the honesty of pro-life advocates, it seems contradictory to gloss over that clear case of misinformation.

I did no 'cherry picking' ... I simply quoted the headline and the first paragraph of the Independent Article ... which accurately summarised the position of GPs on providing abortion pills.
I also posted a link to the article in my original post ... so anybody, who wanted to could read the entire article ... so I wasn't hiding anything.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/twothirds-of-gps-will-refuse-to-provide-abortion-pills-36682050.html

The view of GPs on repeal of the 8th is a different matter.

... and I have covered the hypocracy of their position on this in my previous post ... as well as the danger it represents to their position on not supplying abortion pills, if the 8th is repealed.

I don't buy the idea that they won't provide the pills due to training requirements. I was listening to a doctor on radio the other day and he said that the training requirements for prescribing abortion pills could be done in an afternoon by a GP on a continuous professsional develpoment course.

... I think that many doctors simply don't want to be involved with abortion ... and the GPs who are in favour of repeal but opposed to personally taking part in abortions, are playing a dangerous personal game by advocating for the introduction of abortion ... which may seriously disadvantage them professionally, if it is introduced and they refuse to prescribe abortion pills, for conscience reasons.

Please read the extract below from the original Hippocratic Oath ... which dates from the 4th Century BC Pagan Greece:-

Quote:-
"I will use treatment to help the sick according to my ability and judgment, but never with a view to injury and wrong-doing. Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. But I will keep pure and holy both my life and my art."

Sometimes I wonder if we are becoming less-civilised, as time goes on.
Certainly, the current pressure to introduce abortion on demand ... and assisted suicide, indicates that we are becoming less-enlightened than the ancient Greeks.

Quote Wikippedia:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath
The Hippocratic Oath is an oath historically taken by physicians. It is one of the most widely known of Greek medical texts. In its original form, it requires a new physician to swear, by a number of healing gods, to uphold specific ethical standards. The Oath is the earliest expression of medical ethics in the Western world, establishing several principles of medical ethics which remain of paramount significance today."

... you could say that allright ... except that the principles are no longer held to be of paramount significance, by some societies!!

... and we are all the more vulnerable, when we get sick ... as a result.

david75 wrote: »

Same oath didn’t help Savita and countless others.

There aren't 'countless others' ... Savita died due to complications from a septic miscarriage ... and that was a one-off tragedy, in Ireland.
The PLDPA has now clarified the position on abortion when a mothers life is at risk ... but there will always be people who die in hospital for all kinds of reasons ... including situations where everyone is wiser after the event.

david75 wrote: »

THAT article covers all European countries abortion laws and I don’t see ‘abortion on demand up to birth’ on a single one of them.

Strange that.

I think you may have missed the add-ons to the 'abortion on demand' with limited gestation length in each country.

For example, first up was Belgium, with 12 weeks on demand abortion plus "Abortions are allowed at any stage later in pregnancy if two physicians agree there is a serious risk to the health of the mother or that the child has an "extremely serious and incurable disease".

Three things to note about these add-on abortions :-

1. They are right up to term at nine months ... even though the baby is viable from 6 months ... and therefore are a form of de facto infanticide, when performed after 24 weeks.

2. A 'serious risk to the health of the woman' is highly subjective ... and is effectively abortion on demand, by another name ... with just a few easy to comply with formalities.

3. The child with an 'extremely serious and incurable disease' could be anything from Cleft Palate to Downs Syndrome ... and again they can be killed up to nine months ... even though they are viable from 6 months.

Also interesting that Belgium, didn't even pretend that it isn't a child that we are dealing with. They don't even bother with euphemisms like 'fetus'.

... and if or when we have abortion on demand in Ireland, the people who were brazenly marching down the streets of Dublin the other day, loudly demanding that they be allowed to kill their unborn children by abortion, as they see fit ... won't bother with any euphemisms either.

Abortion with no gestational age, isn't unique to Belgium. For example:-

In the Czech Republic:-
"If gestation is more than 12 weeks, the abortion requires authorisation by a medical commission."

In Denmark :-
"Abortions can be provided over 12 weeks but it must be approved by a committee."

In France:-
"A termination can be performed up to the very end if there is a serious threat to the life of the mother or a grave abnormality in the foetus."

In Germany:-
"Abortions can also be provided after 12 weeks when there is a danger to a woman’s life, her health or mental health. A termination can also be provided if a foetal abnormality is identified."

In Italy:-
"After the first three months of pregnancy, abortion is only allowed to save the woman's life or when the mother's physical or mental health is endangered, including if a foetal abnormality is identified."

In Iceland:-
"However, this limit does not apply in cases where the mother’s life or health is in jeopardy or if foetal deformity is identified."


Another thing to note is that Ireland already has abortion without gestational limit in the PLDPA. We are the most liberal of all countries in Europe for these types of abortion. The only thing stopping the actual killing of these unborn children after 24 weeks, is the 8th requirement to take account of the life of the child. This will immediately be removed if the 8th is repealed.

Some other European Countries have gestational limits of 22-24 weeks for all abortions ... because after 22-24 weeks the baby is viable ... and it can be delivered by caesarian ... and saved.

In Netherlands:-
"Under the law, an abortion may be performed up to the time when the foetus is viable outside the mother’s body. This is generally taken to mean the 24th week of the pregnancy."

In Greece:-
"If the pregnancy is the result of a rape or incest, an abortion can be carried out until the 19th week of pregnancy. In the case of severe foetal abnormalities, the limit for terminating the pregnancy is 24 weeks."

In Finland:-
"Terminations can be provided up to 20 weeks when there is a risk to the physical health of the woman or in cases involving girls under the age of 17. If a foetal abnormality is identified, abortions can take place up to 24 weeks."

In Latvia:-
"Terminations are provided up to 12 weeks without restriction and up to 22 weeks for “medical reasons”.

In Portugal:-
"Abortions are provided up to the 12th week to save a woman's life or to preserve her mental or physical health. In cases of rape, abortions are allowed within 16 weeks. The limit is 24 weeks if there is a risk that the child will be born with an incurable disease or deformity."

david75 wrote: »

And none of the above that I could read without being distracted by constant bolding, is abortion on demand

There are two general abortion regimes in countries in Europe.

One (more liberal) regime involves abortion on demand plus abortion for various stated reasons with no gestational limit ... this is the same regime proposed and already legislated for in Ireland as well.

The second (more conservative) regime limits all abortion to a maximum of 22-24 weeks i.e. until viability of the baby.

... so Ireland is heading for the most liberal abortion regime in Europe ... and all that stands in the way is the 8th.

... in any event they're all very radical as they involve the killing of tiny vulnerable Human Beings ... 99% of the time for nothing more than the pregnancy is unwanted ... or the child is potentially disabled.

For example in England and Wales,
Quote:-
In 2016, 97% of abortions (180,794) were undertaken under ground C. A further 2% were
carried out under ground E (3,208 abortions) and a similar proportion (1%: 1342 abortions) under ground D. "


Ground C the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of
the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of
injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman.

Ground D the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of
the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of
injury to the physical or mental health of any existing children of the family of the
pregnant woman.

Ground E there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such
physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.