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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

J C

I don't believe that a Christian can morally vote for unlimited abortion.

The Sixth Commandment is very simple and very clear ... 'Thou shalt not kill'.

It means that you cannot kill yourself or another Human Being, except in self defence (or the defence of another Human Being) where no other option is available.
This is the basis for all laws protecting the person and criminalising the killing of other people in Common Law Jurisprudence.

Induced abortion is ethically and morally wrong ... except where the life of the mother is directly threatened and there is no other option available to save her.

This is the current law in Ireland.

Voting to expand Irish Law to allow the unlimited killing of unborn children is not something that any Christian (or other monotheist, indeed) can do in conscience and in clear contravention of the Sixth Commandment of God.

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Timberrrrrrrr

end of the road wrote: »

i haven't proved your point. there is no real tangible evidence that the 8th will or won't be repealed, or that momentum is on the repeal or non-repeal side. the reality is we do not know which way the vote will go. marches and opinion poles are something only a minority of people will ultimately take part in so aren't enough to gage anything really.
a lot of people are silent on their views, and there is a bit of a back-clash around the world at the moment against eliberalism/libtardism, so that may have a part to play in the vote as well, meaning a huge no vote is possible. but only the vote will tell us, so trying to predict the vote is futile.

Copy/paste drivel

end of the road

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Thanks for proving me right.

i haven't proved your point. there is no real tangible evidence that the 8th will or won't be repealed, or that momentum is on the repeal or non-repeal side. the reality is we do not know which way the vote will go. marches and opinion poles are something only a minority of people will ultimately take part in so aren't enough to gage anything really.
a lot of people are silent on their views, and there is a bit of a back-clash around the world at the moment against eliberalism/libtardism, so that may have a part to play in the vote as well, meaning a huge no vote is possible. but only the vote will tell us, so trying to predict the vote is futile.

Timberrrrrrrr

end of the road wrote: »

there is no real tangible evidence for that. the reality is we do not know which way the vote will go. marches and opinion poles are something only a minority of people will ultimately take part in so aren't enough to gage anything really.
a lot of people are silent on their views, and there is a bit of a back-clash around the world at the moment against eliberalism/libtardism, so that may have a part to play in the vote also.

Thanks for proving me right.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And yet hundreds of thousands will and the 8th will be repealed. Now I'm sure.you will come back with your usual drivel but the fact of the matter is that momentum is on the repeal side.

end of the road

pilly wrote: »

1. This is about Christians apparently, not Catholics.

2. Nobody's asking you to have an abortion so that's that problem solved. You won't have to kill anyone.

except it's not problem solved as people will be able to kill human beings just because they are inconvenient.

pilly

Graces7 wrote:

Speaking as a Catholic, always NO

1. This is about Christians apparently, not Catholics.

2. Nobody's asking you to have an abortion so that's that problem solved. You won't have to kill anyone.

pilly

end of the road wrote:

the discussion and the question is whether a christian can morally vote for the killing of the unborn though. there is no debate that one can legally vote whatever way they want, or not vote at all.

Read the thread title again EOTR.

end of the road

david75 wrote: »

SO the poster who wants to save DS babies just used the word libtard.

The level of utter stupidity and hypocrisy from the pro lifers never ever ceases to make me laugh.

if it was true then i'd agree it would amaze us. it's not.

pilly wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The answer to the question that is the title of the thread is YES, a christian CAN vote to repeal the 8th if they want. That's a fact so I wish people would stop telling lies.

A christian can vote whatever way they like in this referendum or not vote at all because we're not members of a cult thankfully.

We have free choice.

the discussion and the question is whether a christian can morally vote for the killing of the unborn though. there is no debate that one can legally vote whatever way they want, or not vote at all.

pilly

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The answer to the question that is the title of the thread is YES, a christian CAN vote to repeal the 8th if they want. That's a fact so I wish people would stop telling lies.

A christian can vote whatever way they like in this referendum or not vote at all because we're not members of a cult thankfully.

We have free choice.

Graces7

Lisa Billions Gum wrote: »

Maybe.

Speaking as a Catholic, always NO

Articles 2270 onwards in our Catechism are uncompromising.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

Graces7

volchitsa wrote: »

This Hippocratic oath mythologizing again. Your own link says that it banned surgery (use of the knife) so hardly something to be copied directly.

Not only that, the link also says : "The Oath's prohibition of abortion is also not found in contemporary medical texts. The Hippocratic text On the Nature of the Child contains a description of an abortion, without any implication that it was morally wrong,[13] and descriptions of abortifacient medications are numerous in the ancient medical literature.[14] "

So not all that clearcut at all then.

In reality most doctors in Ireland do not take the Hippocratic Oath
https://www.imt.ie/opinion/guest-posts/what-does-the-hippocratic-oath-mean-24-04-2009/

david75

end of the road wrote: »

there is no real tangible evidence for that. the reality is we do not know which way the vote will go. marches and opinion poles are something only a minority of people will ultimately take part in so aren't enough to gage anything really.
a lot of people are silent on their views, and there is a bit of a back-clash around the world at the moment against eliberalism/libtardism, so that may have a part to play in the vote also.

SO the poster who wants to save DS babies just used the word libtard.

The level of utter stupidity and hypocrisy from the pro lifers never ever ceases to make me laugh.

end of the road

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And yet hundreds of thousands will and the 8th will be repealed. Now I'm sure.you will come back with your usual drivel but the fact of the matter is that momentum is on the repeal side.

there is no real tangible evidence for that. the reality is we do not know which way the vote will go. marches and opinion poles are something only a minority of people will ultimately take part in so aren't enough to gage anything really.
a lot of people are silent on their views, and there is a bit of a back-clash around the world at the moment against eliberalism/libtardism, so that may have a part to play in the vote also.

Timberrrrrrrr

end of the road wrote: »

it's definitely a no

And yet hundreds of thousands will and the 8th will be repealed. Now I'm sure.you will come back with your usual drivel but the fact of the matter is that momentum is on the repeal side.

end of the road

it's definitely a no

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

No

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yes

Maybe.

Timberrrrrrrr

Graces7 wrote: »

No

Yes

Graces7

J C

david75 wrote: »

And none of the above that I could read without being distracted by constant bolding, is abortion on demand

There are two general abortion regimes in countries in Europe.

One (more liberal) regime involves abortion on demand plus abortion for various stated reasons with no gestational limit ... this is the same regime proposed and already legislated for in Ireland as well.

The second (more conservative) regime limits all abortion to a maximum of 22-24 weeks i.e. until viability of the baby.

... so Ireland is heading for the most liberal abortion regime in Europe ... and all that stands in the way is the 8th.

... in any event they're all very radical as they involve the killing of tiny vulnerable Human Beings ... 99% of the time for nothing more than the pregnancy is unwanted ... or the child is potentially disabled.

For example in England and Wales,
Quote:-
In 2016, 97% of abortions (180,794) were undertaken under ground C. A further 2% were
carried out under ground E (3,208 abortions) and a similar proportion (1%: 1342 abortions) under ground D. "

Ground C the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of
the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of
injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman.

Ground D the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of
the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of
injury to the physical or mental health of any existing children of the family of the
pregnant woman.

Ground E there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such
physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.

david75

Again with the bolding. We can read JC. Please.

And none of the above that I could read without being distracted by constant bolding, is abortion on demand

J C

david75 wrote: »

THAT article covers all European countries abortion laws and I don’t see ‘abortion on demand up to birth’ on a single one of them.

Strange that.

I think you may have missed the add-ons to the 'abortion on demand' with limited gestation length in each country.

For example, first up was Belgium, with 12 weeks on demand abortion plus "Abortions are allowed at any stage later in pregnancy if two physicians agree there is a serious risk to the health of the mother or that the child has an "extremely serious and incurable disease".

Three things to note about these add-on abortions :-

1. They are right up to term at nine months ... even though the baby is viable from 6 months ... and therefore are a form of de facto infanticide, when performed after 24 weeks.

2. A 'serious risk to the health of the woman' is highly subjective ... and is effectively abortion on demand, by another name ... with just a few easy to comply with formalities.

3. The child with an 'extremely serious and incurable disease' could be anything from Cleft Palate to Downs Syndrome ... and again they can be killed up to nine months ... even though they are viable from 6 months.

Also interesting that Belgium, didn't even pretend that it isn't a child that we are dealing with. They don't even bother with euphemisms like 'fetus'.

... and if or when we have abortion on demand in Ireland, the people who were brazenly marching down the streets of Dublin the other day, loudly demanding that they be allowed to kill their unborn children by abortion, as they see fit ... won't bother with any euphemisms either.

Abortion with no gestational age, isn't unique to Belgium. For example:-

In the Czech Republic:-
"If gestation is more than 12 weeks, the abortion requires authorisation by a medical commission."

In Denmark :-
"Abortions can be provided over 12 weeks but it must be approved by a committee."

In France:-
"A termination can be performed up to the very end if there is a serious threat to the life of the mother or a grave abnormality in the foetus."

In Germany:-
"Abortions can also be provided after 12 weeks when there is a danger to a woman’s life, her health or mental health. A termination can also be provided if a foetal abnormality is identified."

In Italy:-
"After the first three months of pregnancy, abortion is only allowed to save the woman's life or when the mother's physical or mental health is endangered, including if a foetal abnormality is identified."

In Iceland:-
"However, this limit does not apply in cases where the mother’s life or health is in jeopardy or if foetal deformity is identified."

Another thing to note is that Ireland already has abortion without gestational limit in the PLDPA. We are the most liberal of all countries in Europe for these types of abortion. The only thing stopping the actual killing of these unborn children after 24 weeks, is the 8th requirement to take account of the life of the child. This will immediately be removed if the 8th is repealed.

Some other European Countries have gestational limits of 22-24 weeks for all abortions ... because after 22-24 weeks the baby is viable ... and it can be delivered by caesarian ... and saved.

In Netherlands:-
"Under the law, an abortion may be performed up to the time when the foetus is viable outside the mother’s body. This is generally taken to mean the 24th week of the pregnancy."

In Greece:-
"If the pregnancy is the result of a rape or incest, an abortion can be carried out until the 19th week of pregnancy. In the case of severe foetal abnormalities, the limit for terminating the pregnancy is 24 weeks."

In Finland:-
"Terminations can be provided up to 20 weeks when there is a risk to the physical health of the woman or in cases involving girls under the age of 17. If a foetal abnormality is identified, abortions can take place up to 24 weeks."

In Latvia:-
"Terminations are provided up to 12 weeks without restriction and up to 22 weeks for “medical reasons”.

In Portugal:-
"Abortions are provided up to the 12th week to save a woman's life or to preserve her mental or physical health. In cases of rape, abortions are allowed within 16 weeks. The limit is 24 weeks if there is a risk that the child will be born with an incurable disease or deformity."

david75

THAT article covers all European countries abortion laws and I don’t see ‘abortion on ddemand up to birth’ on a single one of them.

Strange that.

david75

Great stuff in the times. For both sides. Facts and explanations of everything in and around the referendum and our history on it.

https://t.co/b12qVEXGx6?amp=1

J C

volchitsa wrote: »

This Hippocratic oath mythologizing again. .

No mythologizing ... just the bare facts ... including a direct quote from the original Hippocratic Oath.

volchitsa wrote: »

Your own link says that it banned surgery (use of the knife) so hardly something to be copied directly.

You are wrong about this ... the oath banned physicians from using the knife i.e. surgery ... but it mandated referral to specialist surgeons, when appropriate ... exactly like happens today.

Quote:-
"I will not use the knife, not even, verily, on sufferers from stone, but I will give place to such as are craftsmen therein."
(Emboldening to draw attention to the part you previously 'missed'.)

Surgeons, historically, weren't medical doctors (or physicians) ... historically they were just neat users of cutting instruments like knives and razors. Many were barbers, and that is why the 'barbers pole' today is a spiral of white and red.
http://broughttolife.sciencemuseum.org.uk/broughttolife/people/barbersurgeons

Today surgeons are also medically qualified ... but they continue the historically 'lay' aspect of surgery, by referring to themselves as Mr. Ms. etc. ... rather than Dr.
Surgeons also no longer cut hair (in their day job, anyway) !!:)

volchitsa wrote: »

Not only that, the link also says : "The Oath's prohibition of abortion is also not found in contemporary medical texts. The Hippocratic text On the Nature of the Child contains a description of an abortion, without any implication that it was morally wrong,[13] and descriptions of abortifacient medications are numerous in the ancient medical literature.[14] "

So not all that clearcut at all then.

The Hippocratic Oath was quite clear on medical abortion ... it banned physicians from having anything to do with it.
Quote :-
"Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion."
(Emboldening to draw attention to the part you seem to have previously 'missed'.)

Interestingly, as we have already discussed, modern physicians in Ireland, just like their their ancient Greek antecedents, are similarly inclined to have nothing to do with medical abortion pills (or pessaries), ... with only 15 % of GPs saying that they would provide abortion pills, if the 8th is repealed.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/twothirds-of-gps-will-refuse-to-provide-abortion-pills-36682050.html
Quote:-
"Nearly seven in 10 of the 497 GPs who voted in a closed doctors' forum said they would not be involved in medical abortions.

Around 15.7pc said they would provide the service and 16.1pc were "unsure".

Another interesting aspect of my quote from the Oath, is the juxtaposition of the ban on assisted suicide, doctor led euthanasia and abortion.
The ancient Greeks wisely knew that the 'culture of death' doesn't confine itself to killing people of any particular age ... and if it is countenanced, it will spread its tentacles to ultimately include everybody in its grip.
Quote :-
"Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion."

volchitsa

J C wrote: »

Please read the extract below from the original Hippocratic Oath ... which dates from the 4th Century BC Pagan Greece:-

Quote:-
"I will use treatment to help the sick according to my ability and judgment, but never with a view to injury and wrong-doing. Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. But I will keep pure and holy both my life and my art."

Sometimes I wonder if we are becoming less-civilised, as time goes on.
Certainly, the current pressure to introduce abortion on demand ... and assisted suicide, indicates that we are becoming less-enlightened than the ancient Greeks.

Quote Wikippedia:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath
The Hippocratic Oath is an oath historically taken by physicians. It is one of the most widely known of Greek medical texts. In its original form, it requires a new physician to swear, by a number of healing gods, to uphold specific ethical standards. The Oath is the earliest expression of medical ethics in the Western world, establishing several principles of medical ethics which remain of paramount significance today."

This Hippocratic oath mythologizing again. Your own link says that it banned surgery (use of the knife) so hardly something to be copied directly.

Not only that, the link also says : "The Oath's prohibition of abortion is also not found in contemporary medical texts. The Hippocratic text On the Nature of the Child contains a description of an abortion, without any implication that it was morally wrong,[13] and descriptions of abortifacient medications are numerous in the ancient medical literature.[14] "

So not all that clearcut at all then.

J C

david75 wrote: »

Same oath didn’t help Savita and countless others.

The 'countless others' that the Hypocratic Oath hasn't helped, are the hundreds of millions of unborn babies, that have been aborted ... over 1.4 billion abortions worldwide since 1980 ... and the death toll continues:-

http://www.numberofabortions.com/

... and BTW, because of the 8th ... there was over a quarter of a million less abortions in Ireland during this time.

Delirium

MOD NOTE

JC carded for ignoring mod requests to stop with the over use of the bold feature

Timberrrrrrrr

You know we can read those for ourselves without the ridiculous use of the bolding function right?

You claim it's for highlighting parts of the post you deem pertinent but to be honest it makes me just skim past your posts when you go overboard as you have just done.

J C

david75 wrote: »

Same oath didn’t help Savita and countless others.

There aren't 'countless others' ... Savita died due to complications from a septic miscarriage ... and that was a one-off tragedy, in Ireland.
The PLDPA has now clarified the position on abortion when a mothers life is at risk ... but there will always be people who die in hospital for all kinds of reasons ... including situations where everyone is wiser after the event.

david75

Same oath didn’t help Savita and countless others.

J C

Please read the extract below from the original Hippocratic Oath ... which dates from the 4th Century BC Pagan Greece:-

Quote:-
"I will use treatment to help the sick according to my ability and judgment, but never with a view to injury and wrong-doing. Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. But I will keep pure and holy both my life and my art."

Sometimes I wonder if we are becoming less-civilised, as time goes on.
Certainly, the current pressure to introduce abortion on demand ... and assisted suicide, indicates that we are becoming less-enlightened than the ancient Greeks.

Quote Wikippedia:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath
The Hippocratic Oath is an oath historically taken by physicians. It is one of the most widely known of Greek medical texts. In its original form, it requires a new physician to swear, by a number of healing gods, to uphold specific ethical standards. The Oath is the earliest expression of medical ethics in the Western world, establishing several principles of medical ethics which remain of paramount significance today."

... you could say that allright ... except that the principles are no longer held to be of paramount significance, by some societies!!

... and we are all the more vulnerable, when we get sick ... as a result.