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CIE Unions Pathological Strike Culture

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    #62
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    You seem resistant to change.

    Do you not think commuters deserve a 10 minute DART?

    of course he does, once his mates receive more pay! Out of interest, did transdev employees receive a pay increase as part of the longer trams introduced or did that even come up?

    The problem is actually totally down to government, more than CIE or the unions. Think about this for a minute, when there are strikes, the unions are setting all of the terms, how much they will lose in pay immediately, but will receive in pay increases down the line. Its farcical. If they propose striking again, let them know, there is no way in hell they are going to be financially better off, simple, stops the strikes once and for all... Where in gods name else will they be employed on those lottery like pay, pensions and working conditions? they dont have a leg to stand on realistically!


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    #63
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    of course he does, once his mates receive more pay! Out of interest, did transdev employees receive a pay increase as part of the longer trams introduced or did that even come up?

    No what makes you think that?


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    #64
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    No what makes you think that?
    because it nearly beggars belief that they wouldnt be out tying to thieve more money for it, as IR drivers certainly would and have...


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    #65
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Infini wrote: »
    The whole "mentoring is delaying a 10min service" is a copout.

    I never mentioned mentoring
    IRISH RAIL HAS postponed its plans to run Darts every 10 minutes due to what it described as the “intransigence” of unions.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-10-minute-dart-2687904-Mar2016/

    That was 2 years ago!


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    #66
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    No what makes you think that?

    People read too much internet and think and react like the whole lot is on strike every few weeks. They see the same people on the news and because theyre the same representatives its all the same. C_C

    Seriously CIE is a shell company for property only these days there more or less 3 seperate companies with limited shared resources from legacy issues. What I find silly is people think its always on strike yet in real terms in my experience I've only been out on strike 3 days..... in 13 YEARS.

    Problem I find is people are too quick to give out and blame anything for any inconvenience (I blame cancer media for that). Things get done through negotiations. The reason half the time things blow up like this is usually not simply because "the union said no" but because someone with an ego or on a power trip tries forcing an agenda through without talking to the people on the ground who work the job, pisses off too many people doing so and in the end nothing gets done because they aggrivated too many people and noone will agree because of it.


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    #67
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Infini wrote: »

    Problem I find is people are too quick to give out and blame anything for any inconvenience (I blame cancer media for that). Things get done through negotiations.

    It seems like nothing is getting done through negotiations. 2 years of talk about driving the Dart every ten minutes. Does this seem reasonable?

    The unions hold all the cards here. Management can't hire people willing to work, they can't promote from within nor can they take action against drivers refusing to drive the new rosters.

    Meanwhile the commuter suffers


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    #68
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    It seems like nothing is getting done through negotiations. 2 years of talk about driving the Dart every ten minutes. Does this seem reasonable?

    The unions hold all the cards here. Management can't hire people willing to work, they can't promote from within nor can they take action against drivers refusing to drive the new rosters.

    Meanwhile the commuter suffers

    The commuter suffers because they (the government) still treat public transport as a money making company instead of an infrastructure. Lets be honest the investments in the PHYSICAL infrastructure should have been done sooner not as an afterthought. I dont see the 10m service running very well because of the previous bottlenecks i mentioned.

    As for the drivers refusing to train mentee, do you really expect them to put their own job and financial security at risk and take the blame for someone elses mistake? Do you think any of them would want to take that risk considering the kind of untrustworthy management running the place tends to throw the lowest level employee under the train at the first opportunity?


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    #69
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,674 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Infini

    Are existing DART drivers and unions refusing to cooperate with roster changes to enable a 10 minute DART....


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    #70
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    of course he does, once his mates receive more pay! Out of interest, did transdev employees receive a pay increase as part of the longer trams introduced or did that even come up?

    their pay deal will cover it.
    Idbatterim wrote: »
    The problem is actually totally down to government, more than CIE or the unions. Think about this for a minute, when there are strikes, the unions are setting all of the terms, how much they will lose in pay immediately, but will receive in pay increases down the line. Its farcical. If they propose striking again, let them know, there is no way in hell they are going to be financially better off, simple, stops the strikes once and for all...

    no it won't stop the strikes. at all.
    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Where in gods name else will they be employed on those lottery like pay, pensions and working conditions?

    well seeing as we are discussing IE, the staff (the drivers at least) would get similar over in the uk, and further afield.
    Idbatterim wrote: »
    they dont have a leg to stand on realistically!

    they do.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #71
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Infini wrote: »
    Oh would you stop with this line of reasoning. The whole "mentoring is delaying a 10min service" is a copout. Seriously there is 2 real reasons why a 10m service isnt gonna work.

    1) Northern Line Bottleneck and
    2) 5 level crossings over 2~3KM on the southside.

    I honestly think that the 10m service is a bad idea not out of principal but because the DART isnt a standalone system. It has to share capacity with mainline and intercity trains and capacity will be so tight that the smallest of things is all it will take to break the whole lot down.

    oh no, i'm apparently negatively effecting these people by reminding them the railway is for all users and not just the dart. this is dispite the fact it's well known here i don't work for IE, NTA or any of the transport companies.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #72
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Infini wrote: »
    The commuter suffers because they (the government) still treat public transport as a money making company instead of an infrastructure. Lets be honest the investments in the PHYSICAL infrastructure should have been done sooner not as an afterthought. I dont see the 10m service running very well because of the previous bottlenecks i mentioned.

    My understanding is all the infrastructure required for 10 minute DARTs is in place. If it runs very well or not isn't the drivers concern.


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    #73
    Colonel Claptrap
    Registered Users Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Colonel Claptrap


    end of the road wrote: »
    oh no, i'm apparently negatively effecting these people by reminding them the railway is for all users and not just the dart. this is dispite the fact it's well known here i don't work for IE, NTA or any of the transport companies.

    Which of these is true?

    Unions will not accept 10 minute DART because it is incompatible with intercity services?

    Unions will not accept 10 minute DART because older members refuse to mentor new entrants?


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    #74
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,868 ✭✭✭trellheim


    The commuter suffers because they (the government) still treat public transport as a money making company instead of an infrastructure. Lets be honest the investments in the PHYSICAL infrastructure should have been done sooner not as an afterthought. I dont see the 10m service running very well because of the previous bottlenecks i mentioned.

    That is the NTAs concern. Lets put the 10 minute service on and its up to them to sort it out. The driver of the bus is hardly the one fixing the potholes.


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    #75
    tabbey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    Stephen15 wrote: »

    Do have a problem with people who have a secure job with good overtime?

    Not at all.

    But I do have with one group of them demanding to be treated more favourably than another group paid from the same public source.

    There should be equality all round.

    The problem was one created by the two governments between 2008 and 2013. A case of divide and rule.


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    #76
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    Which of these is true?

    Unions will not accept 10 minute DART because it is incompatible with intercity services?

    Unions will not accept 10 minute DART because older members refuse to mentor new entrants?

    pop an email off to the union and ask them.
    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    My understanding is all the infrastructure required for 10 minute DARTs is in place. If it runs very well or not isn't the drivers concern.

    the signalling is in place yes. however the concern is in relation to whether there is enough contingentsy in terms of track capacity.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #77
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    tabbey wrote: »
    The problem was one created by the two governments between 2008 and 2013. A case of divide and rule.

    But the government doesn't have a say in pay deals sought by workers in semi state bodies


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    #78
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »



    the signalling is in place yes. however the concern is in relation to whether there is enough contingentsy in terms of track capacity.

    Who's concern? Drivers are paid to drive as we are so often reminded. If only there was a way to find out if we have enough capacity like I don't know running the trains to a 10 minute schedule?


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    #79
    Working class heroes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,508 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    end of the road wrote: »
    pop an email off to the union and ask them.



    the signalling is in place yes. however the concern is in relation to whether there is enough contingentsy in terms of track capacity.

    Pc@siptu.com is it?

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



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    #80
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    I generally take a neutral view when it comes to arguments about industrial disputes regarding CIE companies but I have to say I think there might be a certain element of jealousy coming from certain people who are jealous that CIE workers have strong unions that are willing to fight for a pay rise for them.

    Then some complain saying that they "would gladly drive a bus/train for the money those lads are on" but yet DB and BE have recruited for drivers on numerous ocassions in recent years and unless these people who constantly complain on here and in comments sections are the ones applying which I somehow doubt as I believe uptake for these positions isin't that high I'm sure you near fill every DB, IE and BE driving position with everyone who has said that at this stage.

    They really should stop saying they'd happily do the job whenever there is a strike or if they are going to say then maybe they should look at getting a D licence and applying for a job as a driver for DB or BE whenever they come or they're just pure and utter hypocrites.


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    #81
    Colonel Claptrap
    Registered Users Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Colonel Claptrap


    Come off it. The only reason we are giving out is because of begrudgery?

    I am a customer of IE. I am also a taxpayer. It infuriates me to see this sort of carry on because I am directly effected by It, not because I'm jealous of their cushy number.

    Further to your point, I would not want to work in a closed shop with a hive mind of union members. I previously worked in 2 jobs with overbearing union heads on power trips. I didnt stick around for long. I improved my "terms and conditions" by upskilling and getting the hell out of there.


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    #82
    Flex
    Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Flex


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    Come off it. The only reason we are giving out is because of begrudgery?

    I am a customer of IE. I am also a taxpayer. It infuriates me to see this sort of carry on because I am directly effected by It, not because I'm jealous of their cushy number.

    Further to your point, I would not want to work in a closed shop with a hive mind of union members. I previously worked in 2 jobs with overbearing union heads on power trips. I didnt stick around for long. I improved my "terms and conditions" by upskilling and getting the hell out of there.

    Indeed the begrudgery line is refuge of the lazy and ignorant. If I own shares in a company where staff is paid significantly above market rates of pay and are returning mediocre outputs and obstructing improvements in efficiency, agility and performance I would be equally disgusted and demand results before withdrawing my investment in said company

    As a tax payer I have a stake in these companies and I fund them through my income taxes and so on. I cant withdraw my taxes from the government so my only means of retort when I see staff paid significantly above market rates of pay and are returning mediocre outputs and obstructing improvements in efficiency, agility and performance is to demand the government to take a harder line.

    I don't have a lobby group (in the form of trade unions) to represent me in strike debates/demands, and I am at a huge disadvantage because these same staff have 'jobs for life' (further vexing, as this privilege is funded by taxpayers and used a tool to gouge those same taxpayers further) so there is effectively absolutely no downside for this bad attitude and sense of entitlement; the result is I have to hand over more of my money through taxation than I would otherwise. Beyond that, theres simple fact we have such mediocre public services in Ireland due to the fact the high unionisation means the services are viewed as a means of employing people who would otherwise be unemployed, so those services are ran for the benefit of the staff, rather than the public, which as a socially left-wing individual I find very frustrating


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    #83
    brokenarms
    Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    Flex wrote: »
    Indeed the begrudgery line is refuge of the lazy and ignorant. If I own shares in a company where staff is paid significantly above market rates of pay and are returning mediocre outputs and obstructing improvements in efficiency, agility and performance I would be equally disgusted and demand results before withdrawing my investment in said company

    As a tax payer I have a stake in these companies and I fund them through my income taxes and so on. I cant withdraw my taxes from the government so my only means of retort when I see staff paid significantly above market rates of pay and are returning mediocre outputs and obstructing improvements in efficiency, agility and performance is to demand the government to take a harder line.

    I don't have a lobby group (in the form of trade unions) to represent me in strike debates/demands, and I am at a huge disadvantage because these same staff have 'jobs for life' (further vexing, as this privilege is funded by taxpayers and used a tool to gouge those same taxpayers further) so there is effectively absolutely no downside for this bad attitude and sense of entitlement; the result is I have to hand over more of my money through taxation than I would otherwise. Beyond that, theres simple fact we have such mediocre public services in Ireland due to the fact the high unionisation means the services are viewed as a means of employing people who would otherwise be unemployed, so those services are ran for the benefit of the staff, rather than the public, which as a socially left-wing individual I find very frustrating

    Yet the very post you deny begrudgery , you exhibit it in the next paragraph?


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    #84
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    Come off it. The only reason we are giving out is because of begrudgery?

    I am a customer of IE. I am also a taxpayer. It infuriates me to see this sort of carry on because I am directly effected by It, not because I'm jealous of their cushy number.

    Further to your point, I would not want to work in a closed shop with a hive mind of union members. I previously worked in 2 jobs with overbearing union heads on power trips. I didnt stick around for long. I improved my "terms and conditions" by upskilling and getting the hell out of there.

    When did I say begrudge. I said I think some people are jealous of CIE workers as they say they would gladly do the job for whatever money the CIE workers are on. I was not targeting this post at you you never said that I was targeting it at other people who they would gladly drive bus/train but never apply for a job as one.


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    #85
    StreetLight
    Registered Users Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    Come off it. The only reason we are giving out is because of begrudgery?

    I am a customer of IE. I am also a taxpayer. It infuriates me to see this sort of carry on because I am directly effected by It, not because I'm jealous of their cushy number.

    Further to your point, I would not want to work in a closed shop with a hive mind of union members. I previously worked in 2 jobs with overbearing union heads on power trips. I didnt stick around for long. I improved my "terms and conditions" by upskilling and getting the hell out of there.

    Who mentioned begrudgery?

    You view someone who works a full week with anti-social shifts (and sometimes with even more anti-social customers) on the average industrial wage as having a cushy number?

    The politicians are laughing at you.


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    #86
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Flex wrote: »
    Indeed the begrudgery line is refuge of the lazy and ignorant. If I own shares in a company where staff is paid significantly above market rates of pay and are returning mediocre outputs and obstructing improvements in efficiency, agility and performance I would be equally disgusted and demand results before withdrawing my investment in said company

    As a tax payer I have a stake in these companies and I fund them through my income taxes and so on. I cant withdraw my taxes from the government so my only means of retort when I see staff paid significantly above market rates of pay and are returning mediocre outputs and obstructing improvements in efficiency, agility and performance is to demand the government to take a harder line.

    I don't have a lobby group (in the form of trade unions) to represent me in strike debates/demands, and I am at a huge disadvantage because these same staff have 'jobs for life' (further vexing, as this privilege is funded by taxpayers and used a tool to gouge those same taxpayers further) so there is effectively absolutely no downside for this bad attitude and sense of entitlement; the result is I have to hand over more of my money through taxation than I would otherwise. Beyond that, theres simple fact we have such mediocre public services in Ireland due to the fact the high unionisation means the services are viewed as a means of employing people who would otherwise be unemployed, so those services are ran for the benefit of the staff, rather than the public, which as a socially left-wing individual I find very frustrating


    on what basis are you claiming "staff are paid significantly above market rates of pay"
    there is a difference in being paid over the market rate and not agreeing with their rate of pay. irish rail drivers for example are paid similar to the uk, so are paid within the european rail market rates of pay.
    there are no jobs for life in the public service anymore.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #87
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Infini

    Are existing DART drivers and unions refusing to cooperate with roster changes to enable a 10 minute DART....

    Havent a clue atm about this because I've heard nothing about it. All I've heard is what's been posted here by other people who are drivers and have said basically that its a liability issue. That's the core problem with the mentoring in the first place: It's the company trying to force driver's to take new drivers out and make them liable for any mistakes the mentor make regardless of how much time as passed.

    Driver's said no because
    1) its voluntary and
    2) they dont trust the company if something goes wrong so the only thing they can do is stay away from it.

    Edit: I also wish some poster's would stop using the "I'm a taxpayer" angle as an "argument". Regardless of the fact that EVERYONE here is a taxpayer thank you very much (unless your living in malta! :P ), it seems to be overused as an excuse to come across as self important rather than an actual argument. EVERYONE has problem's we can only deal with them as they come along.


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    #88
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Infini wrote: »
    make them liable for any mistakes the mentor make regardless of how much time as passed.

    Can someone please post a link to this? I can't find it even on the NBRU site. All I found was
    Our members have rejected the Recommendation which was designed to facilitate a move from the currently agreed voluntarist system of training new drivers, to one where it would become compulsory for all train drivers to mentor new colleagues.

    http://nbru.ie/index.php/nbru-members-reject-labour-court-proposal-on-past-productivity-and-driver-training/


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    #89
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,674 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Infini wrote: »
    Havent a clue atm about this because I've heard nothing about it. All I've heard is what's been posted here by other people who are drivers and have said basically that its a liability issue. That's the core problem with the mentoring in the first place: It's the company trying to force driver's to take new drivers out and make them liable for any mistakes the mentor make regardless of how much time as passed.

    Driver's said no because
    1) its voluntary and
    2) they dont trust the company if something goes wrong so the only thing they can do is stay away from it.

    Edit: I also wish some poster's would stop using the "I'm a taxpayer" angle as an "argument". Regardless of the fact that EVERYONE here is a taxpayer thank you very much (unless your living in malta! :P ), it seems to be overused as an excuse to come across as self important rather than an actual argument. EVERYONE has problem's we can only deal with them as they come along.

    Well one of the unions said a few months ago they would not co-operate with roster changes to allow the 10 minute schedule.

    By right there should be 0 new DART drivers needed to facilitate but "resistance to change" is the problem and not wanting to give up shift/break patterns.


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    #90
    tabbey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    But the government doesn't have a say in pay deals sought by workers in semi state bodies

    The government had power to enact any legislation it chose prior to the 2016 election. It is also the owner of semi-state companies, with power to change the boards, and/or liquidate the companies. It could also abolish the NTA.


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    #91
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    tabbey wrote: »
    The government had power to enact any legislation it chose prior to the 2016 election. It is also the owner of semi-state companies, with power to change the boards, and/or liquidate the companies. It could also abolish the NTA.

    But pay and conditions are an internal matter for CIE management which is appointed by the minister for transport that's the only connection between the Minister for Transport and his civil servants and CIE. It's an entirely separate entity from the department of transport as they delegate responsibility for CIE and their companies away from the DoT.


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