Match preview & thread: FRA vs IRE (Sat Feb 3, 1645)

Yeah_Right · 05-02-2018 02:12PM

As others have mentioned, that final drive on Saturday was very reminiscent of the ABs. Especially of that match in 2013 and I had the same confidence on Saturday night as I had back then. We were going to win*

I will admit that when Sexton took the DG, I did shout WTF! as I though he was too far out.

Winning that way I think helps the team in the long run. If they'd limped home with a 12-9 victory it would have been meh. But having to fight back like that, coming so close to losing, means they will be more focused and the analysis more critical. I think.

It also showed how disciplined, tough and together this team is. Everyone did their job. No one panicked. No one had a brain explosion. They all did what was required of them. It was really impressive.

* by "we" I'm an AB supporter but when they're not playing, I obviously support Ireland.

.ak · 05-02-2018 02:26PM

awec wrote: »

Interesting article in the times this morning.

Since 2014 Ireland have scored 37 tries in the Six Nations. 31 of these have been against Italy and Scotland.

We will dispatch of poor tier two sides with ease, hammer the poor six nations teams and get big results in one off Autumn games. But as of yet we haven’t cracked the nut on how to develop a cutting edge against the good six nations side, and turn possession into points consistently.

I don’t know what the problem is. Maybe it’s the tactics, maybe the players aren’t as good as we think, maybe it’s a mental issue. We never have a problem getting ourselves up for individual big matches that we target, but we don’t seem capable of stringing 5 clinical performances back to back.

Maybe it’s because England, Wales and France are good teams.

irishbucsfan · 05-02-2018 02:31PM

.ak wrote: »

Maybe it’s because England, Wales and France are good teams.

As awec pointed out after the post you quoted, not quite

.ak · 05-02-2018 02:38PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

As awec pointed out after the post you quoted, not quite

They’re tough teams to crack, and France and England have better talent at their disposal for scoring tries.

I think people will be a long time waiting to see a Leinster-esque performance from an Irish team against England, Wales or France.

05-02-2018 02:39PM

Stander, Leavy Conan would be my back row against Italy. If you are leaving Stander at 8 then I'd put Jordi or Conan at 6. Joe is going to have to seriously consider our starting back row as we got slow ball all day against France. Owens somewhat to blame but it wasn't good enough. If Seanie is back then that changes things, but we're going to need to be better if we fancy ourselves champions. We also provided no threat from the backrow in attack and we needed someone like Conan who can get in behind the French and get their hands away. I don't think O'Mahony is in good enough form to be starting at the moment. He worked hard on Saturday but was completely ineffectual.

I think we're going to see changes to the back three also. Kearney and Stockdale both with mixed games. Stockdale guilty a few times this season of making bad or no decisions in defence and I think one of he or Kearney are going to be replaced next week and if it's Stockdale it won't be a good sign for him.

Ringrose and Sean O'Brien would have made a big difference to us today. I don't know who you replace if Ringrose comes in but we lacked a spark in mid field as an alternative when the ball was slow.

05-02-2018 02:40PM

.ak wrote: »

They’re tough teams to crack, and France and England have better talent at their disposal for scoring tries.

I think people will be a long time waiting to see a Leinster-esque performance from an Irish team against England, Wales or France.

I thought the win on Saturday was extremely Leinster-esque. Especially away in France.

.ak · 05-02-2018 02:42PM

Thought Henshaw had a mixed bag imo ... but There’s a lot to be said for using a club combination in midfield and getting Henshaw and Ringrose partnered up again.

Aki was fantastic going forward yesterday tho

molloyjh · 05-02-2018 02:47PM

awec wrote: »

No, not at all.

In the 2015/2016/2017 Six nations, the tries scored against France / Ireland / England / Wales by nation are:

Ireland - 6
Wales - 12
England - 18
France - 12

Sorry, but go back through the games individually as opposed to the totals. Scoring 0-2 tries against top opposition is the norm. Ireland won the 2015 6Ns having scored very few tries at all and in the same year that mental France-England game saw 12 tries scored, warping the total figures. The 2015 Championship is no less valuable despite the lack of tries scored. Wales have a few games where they've scored 3 tries against us and England, but sure how much good has that done them in those years? They finished below us twice in the 3 years.

Team|2015|2016|2017
Ireland|2|2|2
Wales|3|5|4
England|9(2)|6|3
France|7(2)|2|3

That crazy game in Paris aside (tries outside that game are in brackets) the only appreciable difference is 2016 where Wales and England performed better. Other than that we're not far off the norm at all. And we already know that 2016 was our worst 6Ns since Joe took over.

Jack Kanoff · 05-02-2018 02:52PM

Just saw a report that JVDF is out for the season.... horrid news for Ireland and him personally if it's true.

.ak · 05-02-2018 02:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I thought the win on Saturday was extremely Leinster-esque. Especially away in France.

by Leinster-esque I mean being utterly dominate and accurate and scoring tries from it.

AbusesToilets · 05-02-2018 02:59PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ringrose and Sean O'Brien would have made a big difference to us today. I don't know who you replace if Ringrose comes in but we lacked a spark in mid field as an alternative when the ball was slow.

I'd drop Henshaw for Ringrose myself. He didn't contribute much, which is disappointing given his generally positive efforts at 13 for leinster this year.

baas baa · 05-02-2018 03:19PM

awec wrote: »

Interesting article in the times this morning.

Since 2014 Ireland have scored 37 tries in the Six Nations. 31 of these have been against Italy and Scotland.

We will dispatch of poor tier two sides with ease, hammer the poor six nations teams and get big results in one off Autumn games. But as of yet we haven’t cracked the nut on how to develop a cutting edge against the good six nations side, and turn possession into points consistently.

I don’t know what the problem is. Maybe it’s the tactics, maybe the players aren’t as good as we think, maybe it’s a mental issue. We never have a problem getting ourselves up for individual big matches that we target, but we don’t seem capable of stringing 5 clinical performances back to back.

For all his talents I'm not sure Murray is suited to playing the high tempo game you need to break down the better sides.

phog · 05-02-2018 03:46PM

Very disappointed with our performance on Saturday, I know we had the ball ripped once or twice when in good positions but we never looked like we'd score a try.

Sexton's kicks to win the game were high risk and executed brilliantly and everyone can take a sigh of relief that we won but we should never have been in that position with the possession we had. We had zero line breaks - ZERO and that tells it's own story.

Thankfully, we have Italy next to rid ourselves of any rustiness that might be there but we need to be able to threaten the opposition a but more than we did v France.

Overall, we're in a good place, we won in Paris and should see off Italy and Scotland handy enough, we have Wales at home too which is a bonus so as most have predicted then it's down to our last game away to England.

aloooof · 05-02-2018 04:08PM

Just spotted something to clear this up:

aloooof wrote: »

One other point that I don't think I've seen anyone else mention; how come Machenaud didn't take the penalty they missed? He was back on the field at that point, right?

Murray Kinsella has posted this on Twitter:

HIA replacements CAN take place kicks. The protocol was amended last year.
Makes it very difficult to understand why Maxime Machenaud didn't take that shot at goal. Arguably cost France the game.

GreeBo · 05-02-2018 04:17PM

One thing I have noticed during my various re-watching of the last 41 phases.
Most of the time we were passing deep to static runners.

If you are going to be static you might as well be flat, at least that way you aren't losing so much ground.

blackwhite · 05-02-2018 04:21PM

GreeBo wrote: »

One thing I have noticed during my various re-watching of the last 41 phases.
Most of the time we were passing deep to static runners.

If you are going to be static you might as well be flat, at least that way you aren't losing so much ground.

It wasn't just for the 41 phases - it was a noticeable problem for plenty of periods during the game. Ball-carriers with no momentum before the tackle meaning we struggled to move forward in the tight.

We often seem to revert to static one-out passes when faced with quick-up defensive line.
I get that it means the forwards can set their pods and we're less likely to be isolated and turned over, but it also means we're much less likely to get over the gain-line.

GreeBo · 05-02-2018 04:49PM

blackwhite wrote: »

It wasn't just for the 41 phases - it was a noticeable problem for plenty of periods during the game. Ball-carriers with no momentum before the tackle meaning we struggled to move forward in the tight.

We often seem to revert to static one-out passes when faced with quick-up defensive line.
I get that it means the forwards can set their pods and we're less likely to be isolated and turned over, but it also means we're much less likely to get over the gain-line.

True enough.
Its something I notice we do a lot (static 'runners') but I hadnt noticed it with runners standing deep before. Surely you can set a pod with a forward just off the ruck (we do that often enough too)
But throwing to Healy when he is 5M deep and standing still means he has a huge amount of work to do, just for the move to break even.

Akrasia · 05-02-2018 05:17PM

GreeBo wrote: »

One thing I have noticed during my various re-watching of the last 41 phases.
Most of the time we were passing deep to static runners.

If you are going to be static you might as well be flat, at least that way you aren't losing so much ground.

We had to pass deep because France were offside most of the time

lotmc · 05-02-2018 06:18PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

the big turning point in the game came in and around the 50 minute mark, we were battering away 10 meters out, 12 points to 3 up... when Furlong gets ripped and they kick down field (a note here... Murrays delivery to Furlong was incredibly slow, whether by design or by france slowing it down). Two minutes later sexton catches on our 22 and we set up for an exit.... twice however murray declined that option.... second crash ball and Leavy gets caught not releasing. It was an absolutely terrible penalty to give away, on our own 22, letting the get back into the game at 6 - 12

Furlong had gone to ground, and had a knee on the ground, when the ball was ripped from him. Penalty Ireland in front of the posts for tackler not releasing. Oh wait, Nige was reffing.....

who_me · 05-02-2018 06:25PM

Was anyone else like me; watching as that kick was flying: watching the kick (he's too far out!!) watching Owens to see if he'd stick his arm up... Owens waiting and waiting (big attention seeker!

). He still hasn't put up the arm... The camera cuts to Sexton celebrating and I went "**** this, can't wait any longer" and started leaping and screaming and everyone else joined in.

I don't think you can say it's a bad performance given how terrible our record has been there. France, on a bad day, are still a good side.

We're definitely a low-risk, low error side at the moment. On the negative side - we're very predictable to read, put a lot of pressure on our defence, and won't put many sides away. That last bit could really hurt us now that BPs are in the Six Nations!!

On the plus side: predictability helps you play your game faster and more accurately. You get the feeling the 2003 RWC winning English team could have played blindfold, they were so well drilled. This Irish team feels a bit like that. Not spectacular, but very controlled and accurate. Plus, the kicking game negates big sides who want to beat us up. If we're not trying to smash through them, they can't push us back.

We saw the result of all that though in the shape of this game: we were probably dominant through most of the game, without looking anything like scoring a try, so we never pulled away. We got our kickchase wrong for one kick and France scored.

mfceiling · 05-02-2018 08:24PM

phog wrote: »

we have Wales at home too which is a bonus so as most have predicted then it's down to our last game away to England.

Wales will be no pushover. They'll look at us being suspect out wide and play the width of the field. If our defence is anyway narrow we could concede tries.

Ardillaun · 05-02-2018 08:26PM

We generate records for other teams’ tackle counts which is both good and bad news I suppose:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/france-broke-six-nations-defensive-records-against-ireland-and-the-stats-dont-make-good-reading-for-joe-schmidt-36568434.html

Neil3030 · 05-02-2018 08:28PM

If Wales can remain healthy and competitive in this year's championship it will be an incredible achievement, considering who they are already missing. But make no mistake, they could send the Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch U16s and still feel confident coming to Dublin, we just don't seem to phase them!

NollagShona · 05-02-2018 08:38PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

If Wales can remain healthy and competitive in this year's championship it will be an incredible achievement, considering who they are already missing. But make no mistake, they could send the Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch U16s and still feel confident coming to Dublin, we just don't seem to phase them!

Oh, what’s occouring? They don’t play much rugby up there tbf

penybont exile · 05-02-2018 09:04PM

mangobob wrote: »

Look I am absolutely over the moon that we won, and it took me hours to come down off the high of that last four minutes of sheer fupping epicness. As I have said on another site, it was a piece of skill for the ages. I simply cannot say enough great things about it.

But that shouldn't mask the fact that we got out of there with a win by the skin of our teeth against a side that we were rightly expected to dominate. It was in some ways quite a flawed performance. We were worryingly blunt in attack, never even looked like scoring a try and we failed to put France away after 65 odd minutes of controlling the match. As a team we were vastly more settled and experienced, with a far superior coach and tremendous strength in depth. The French fielded a team with a 19 year old fly half making his first appearance, a raft of unfamiliar combinations, a bench with a combined total of 16 caps (vs 200 odd on ours) and were playing their very first 6 Nations game under a coach whose resume is vastly inferior to ours. The conditions are no excuse, as they were the same for both sides. It should never have been that close.

The fact is that in the end, we got out of jail BIG TIME and yes luck most certainly played a part in it. Johnny missed a crucial penalty. Then Belleau missed a sitter. Those two events have no relation to each other. Just because one happened, doesn't mean the other must happen to cancel it out. They are totally independent, and it was sheer luck that the French player chosen to kick missed it. We also got lucky that Machenaud wasn't the one kicking it, because you can bet your house on it that he would have got it. Its also fair to say that several of those French penalties were unforced, so a significant portion of our points were gifts.

All of the positives you stated about Ireland's performance are true. But acknowledging that we got lucky isn't diminishing what we achieved out there. Its simply being honest. In every close game you need a little luck, whether that means little things going for you at crucial times or at the very least not going against you when they could have. Its like the infamous loss to the All Blacks in Dublin. The AB's were lucky to win that. How? They got lucky in the sense that Nigel gave them a very kind decision at a crucial time, and then they got lucky again that Luke Fitzgerald charged the missed conversion too early giving them another chance to win it instead of simply drawing. But that doesn't diminish in any way how incredible their last play was, as they still needed the skill and the composure to capitalise on it.

Saying that Ireland were the better team and yet still were lucky to win is not a contradiction. Its simply the nature of sport.

Couldn't have put it better myself .......

Neil3030 · 05-02-2018 09:09PM

NollagShona wrote: »

Oh, what’s occouring? They don’t play much rugby up there tbf

Sure George North is from out that way!

05-02-2018 09:13PM

phog wrote: »

Very disappointed with our performance on Saturday, I know we had the ball ripped once or twice when in good positions but we never looked like we'd score a try.

Sexton's kicks to win the game were high risk and executed brilliantly and everyone can take a sigh of relief that we won but we should never have been in that position with the possession we had. We had zero line breaks - ZERO and that tells it's own story.

Thankfully, we have Italy next to rid ourselves of any rustiness that might be there but we need to be able to threaten the opposition a but more than we did v France.

Overall, we're in a good place, we won in Paris and should see off Italy and Scotland handy enough, we have Wales at home too which is a bonus so as most have predicted then it's down to our last game away to England.

I agree with all this. Zero line breaks is dreadful and it comes from playing ultra direct rugby and not really having a second playmaker outside Sexton. I'm not really convinced the Italy game will be indicative of anything.

Awec has pointed out in the other thread how hard we find scoring tries compared to the other teams. It's not good enough.

Neil3030 · 05-02-2018 09:49PM

I reckon we are pretty much where we are, tbh, and there's not a whole lot we can do to improve our try-scoring from deep. Our backs are fine - particularly Earls and Stockdale; for example, you could imagine them scoring tries if you put them in the otherwise first choice England or Welsh sides. Our issue is that we lack the threat of a couple of big ball carriers, so we never really contract defenses or get front-foot ball. And thereafter, for all the good things Henshaw does, he really isn't a what you'd call a zippy distributer (as in, a Farrell or a Davies). So when England or Wales get a sniff, the ball can hit the flanks pronto, whereas we just take that split second too long. Not sure what I'd do to rectify it though - Ringrose in for Henshaw? Forget about Joey at 10, and develop him as a playmaking 15? Maybe Larmour at 15 will become the answer?

Just to add - we had a pretty lightweight back row at the weekend, which is why many thought Ryan got the nod over Toner. And France are massive, and were, for once organised. So maybe not the end of the world, all things considered.

Skyfloater · 05-02-2018 10:12PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

I reckon we are pretty much where we are, tbh, and there's not a whole lot we can do to improve our try-scoring from deep. Our backs are fine - particularly Earls and Stockdale; for example, you could imagine them scoring tries if you put them in the otherwise first choice England or Welsh sides. Our issue is that we lack the threat of a couple of big ball carriers, so we never really contract defenses or get front-foot ball. And thereafter, for all the good things Henshaw does, he really isn't a what you'd call a zippy distributer (as in, a Farrell or a Davies). So when England or Wales get a sniff, the ball can hit the flanks pronto, whereas we just take that split second too long. Not sure what I'd do to rectify it though - Ringrose in for Henshaw? Forget about Joey at 10, and develop him as a playmaking 15? Maybe Larmour at 15 will become the answer?

Just to add - we had a pretty lightweight back row at the weekend, which is why many thought Ryan got the nod over Toner. And France are massive, and were, for once organised. So maybe not the end of the world, all things considered.

Did the Ireland pack not have 30kg on the french pack. I think we have to get past this notion that everyone else is huge, and that the poor irish lads are all 10st weaklings.

Neil3030 · 05-02-2018 10:22PM

Skyfloater wrote: »

Did the Ireland pack not have 30kg on the french pack. I think we have to get past this notion that everyone else is huge, and that the poor irish lads are all 10st weaklings.

OK, so maybe the French unit wasn't collectively enormous, but VdF and POM are not known for their ball-carrying, and Stander just doesn't seem to make the same impact carrying at International level as he does for Munster. All these players obviously have enormous positives elsewhere, but in terms of getting front-foot ball, and contracting the French defense, they just didn't make it happen on Saturday.

Match preview & thread: FRA vs IRE (Sat Feb 3, 1645)

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