What % of pple on the dole deserve to be on it?

The_Brood wrote: »

This is very much on point.

Many people here seem to be very optimistic and think that this problem applies only to a very small minority of cases, but that is not reality.

No one is arguing that being on the dole means you will get more money than being full time employed - though as a side note, I have seen people on various social welfare programs who are living in much better conditions and eat better food than me, and I am not even on a very small salary, albeit small it might still be compared to others.

But it seems that the benefits of working (for those of us who are struggling in various ways, and not enjoying the "luxuries" some here suggest) are dangerously close to not significantly outweighing the freedom of not working at all, but still having - obviously not a posh - but acceptable enough life anyway. That to me seems to be a critical problem, that is not being addressed.

If they looked more destitute would that make you happier?

piplip87 wrote: »

6 months maximum, if you cannot find work after that period, Community employment scheme/Course to upskill should be made compulsory.

I myself am on it since November but applying for 10 plus jobs daily and will have no problem going on community employment.

Agree with this. The courses should be legitimate tho. Not some nonsense that just bounces people from the dole to fas back to the dole and on and on and on.

What percentage? no-one. No-one deserves to be on the dole because unemployed people deserve better than a system that provides no options for many to obtain real meaningful education or employment.

That pushes people onto useless education and training courses they have no interest in just so a civil servant or employment agency worker can tick a box and the Govt. can they say there are fewer people on the live registry. I have seen this happen with people who were shunted onto a course I was on who had absolutely no interest in the subject being taught. They admitted they only did it to keep the dole office off their backs for a year or two.

That disincentives people to accept or look for work that is low paid or short term because they lose valuable benefits like their medical cards or rent allowance that is worth far more to them than what they can earn.

That compels the unemployed to attend meetings and participate in 'job activation' and workfare measures in for profit companies like Seetec and Turas Nua-private employement services companies outsourced by the DSP with appalling track records in how they treated many unemployed in the UK, with schemes like JobPath that compel people into jobs-any job no matter how temporary or low paid they can get and no matter how unsuitable it may be-as quickly as possible. Because it will earn the 'Personal Advisor' one is assigned to in these companies a bonus for everyone they can get take credit for in getting a s*it job.
I've been through it and it's demoralising, depressing, humiliating and a complete waste of time.

The more progressive, smarter and more humane way of helping unemployed people realise their full potential and take the 'hoop jumping' time consuming and stressful aspect of being on the dole away, so freeing up people to take on meaningful work-perhaps self employment, is to give them a universal basic income-free money with no strings attached essentially, as Finland have been trialling. And it has support from the left AND the right there. As someone on that video said-unemployed people want to work-in Finland as I believe they do in Ireland. They just don't like the limited restrictive options the system currently offers where it's often more advantageous to stay on the dole than accept the jobs that are on offer.

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2018/jan/12/money-for-nothing-is-finlands-universal-basic-income-trial-too-good-to-be-true

I think the only question should be when is it coming to Ireland if the results of the Finnish trial prove it to be a success for all of society.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Agreed.

A lot of the courses available are extremely basic and have no real use beyond the piece of paper it represents. Employers aren't going to be impressed with many of them. Fact is, unless you apply for the springboard courses (which have many limitations anyway), very few other courses are of any real use. They're designed simply to keep people occupied rather than giving employable skills.

TBH I really wish that Ireland would commit to better courses in IT/programming. Most of the courses available are foundation courses, or aimed at areas which are declining. For example, there are jobs in Java programming, but the whole area is gradually being taken over by other languages. And yet, most of the programming courses outside of the springboard relate to dying industries and/or are focused on providing a very simple introduction (Cloud computing is nice, but the courses available are rather simple).

I taught myself programming in 3 languages within six months (zero previous experience). I'm not wonderful at it (yet) but I can do enough freelance work to provide for myself. I'm also doing web/3D Design, and other graphical related material. It provides me with a fairly decent income, and I can't quite understand why there aren't more "professional" courses available to learn this stuff. (without having to fork out thousands to a private school)

I'm teaching myself advanced Javascript now (udemy, youtube), because of the huge demand for Javascript programmers in Europe and Asia. But you don't see many courses being offered to prepare the unemployed to take advantage of this shortage. Or any of the other shortages going around.

It seems to me that Irish education is doomed to repeat its mistakes. Aiming to stick people in training without considering whether that training will get people employed long-term.

What kind of freelance work do you do?

The_Brood wrote: »

I am sorry but the bolded part is completely not true. First of all, only people who have been on the dole for over a year get placed on those programs, and the majority have been on it for much longer than that.

Nope. I was only on the dole about 6 weeks when I got the letter that I was to attend a meeting in my local Turas Nua office and I got put on their crap JobPath scheme. Something you're given no choice in btw.

The_Brood wrote: »

Second of all, you are put forth only for jobs that you want to do, and those that match your experience and qualifications. There is absolutely no way shape or form they can do anything to "punish" you for not wanting to do a particular job. What is more, temporary jobs do not check anyone's list - only full-time long term employment passes. These are the facts, not what you are claiming.

I was indeed asked what my qualifications were and then expected to look for work in that area. Nothing was offered that I could not have done myself in my own time.
I could have been looking for jobs online instead of coming into an office to do so on their computers. And many others I saw there were simply parked in front of a computer to do the same thing.
I was given "help" in updating my CV that I was later informed by a CV writing service was a load of tosh. I was told I had to pick three areas I was interested in looking for employment in, not just the one I was qualified for. I ended up making jobs up just to come up with something. Ridiculous. The 'Personal Advisor' knew what I was doing and just went along with it. It was just an exercise in ticking boxes off on an online assessment supposedly to see what my strengths and weakness were and suitability for certain types of work-all in the form of dozens of multiple choice questions.
He then went over the same thing a few weeks later to see if any of my answers had changed. Then again a few weeks after that. Complete waste of time.

I told him I was looking into possible job opportunities in a certain employer. He did not ask if it was full time long term employment, he just asked to get back to him the following meeting on how it went.

The rest of the time for several months we chatted not about job opportunities-of which there were few of any value where I lived as he well knew, but of his experience living here in Germany- I told him I was thinking of moving here, and we chatted about when he went to Uni here and what he thought of it, about my previous employment history and the area of work I was in, and how I came to be interested in it. This was all just filling in time basically because we both knew there was little else he could do for me, but he was forced to go through the motions of these update interviews every six weeks because it was his job to do so. Nice enough chap but a complete waste of time as I said.

Oh and I was put on an interview assessment course that was also a waste of time because it was seemingly devised and tailored for those with...shall we say limited education and I found myself bored to death with it. Fortunately it only lasted 3 hours instead of the scheduled 6. :pac:

The 'punish' part is the threat that if you don't play along with the charade your dole will be cut off.

The_Brood wrote: »

You are portraying yourself as someone who is eagerly trying to find work who had a bad experience with those agencies - if so, count yourself among a small percentage, because many who end up there will do anything not to work.

I'm not eagerly trying to find work now as I work P/T for myself right now and my circumstances have changed completely. Yes I did want to find work, as do most who are unemployed-there have been studies done proving this.

The_Brood wrote: »

Whether badly managed or not, these agencies are some of the few actually finding unemployed people work.

It's not that they're badly managed, it's that they are there for their own purposes-to make a profit, not to get the best outcome possible for their 'clients', because as I said the DSP has decided to outsource what should be a state service to the private sector. Some individuals working there I'm sure do their best, but if they were genuinely trying to get people into suitable jobs it would have been structured a hell of a lot differently than it was.

The_Brood wrote: »

I'm reading that article on Finland - it does not clarify, is the "universal" basic income for all people? So employed people will also be being paid that monthly sum (which comes from their own taxes...)? Because if it's only for unemployed people...then I fail to see how it is any different from any other social welfare system - except that it imposes even less expectations on people to search for work.

No, just a small cohort of 2000 unemployed on a trial basis. For now. Read the article again and watch the video if you can't see the benefits of it to the unemployed who were chosen to participate.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Maybe our educational system is failing to address their needs, leading to them signing on?

Maybe they are lazy oafs who think the world owes them a living?

I recently visited a country in south-east Asia where there is no unemployment benefits. Every single person gets up every day and does some form of work to survive eg. street cleaning, selling bits and bops on the streets, repairing bikes at the road side, etc... if they don't work, they don't eat, plain and simple. Sounds tough, but Ireland could take a leaf out of their book. I also learnt that that they have very low crime rates, as people are too busy working to have time for vandalizing, robbing cars, farms and old people, road racing, and up-to-no-good hanging out on the streets with a cans of cider smoking weed. 
I estimate that less than 20% of  people on the dole in Ireland today (ie. 18-65 year old, not sick and not disabled) genuinely qualify for unemployment benefits and that these 20% are looking for work and to better their life. I know approx. 15 people very well who are on the dole, all long term on the dole (10 years +), and every single one works  cash in hand at their leisure, probably coming out with more each week that the guy down the local factory who gets up at 6am, works 40 hours a week, gets 20 days annual leave and pays all his taxes. and I think all of us know unmarried couples with kids,  where the mother is claiming dole with single-parent supplement, and the father is working full time. 
And we ask why? because of the easy and generous social benefits culture the government has implemented over the past 40 years. These people (as mentioned above) remain on the dole as no one is chasing them, no one is demanding they find a job, no one is checking up on them. The department of social protection could never have enough resources to check every single person every week, and the gardaí are also stretched, but where they can improve is in the area of the power they are given. We need dedicated social benefit officers who's one job is carrying out spot-checks, and that they can arrest and hold people, like anyone suspected of a crime.  Look at the ICE (immigration control) in the US, they walk into a work place and if you are working / living there illegally, you are picked up and dealt with with full force. I may not agree  with automatic deportation and splitting up families, but I am making the point as I would like to see similar powers given to dole officers in Ireland. If we did, you would see people coming off the dole very quickly. Yes, its tougher now to walk in and sign on than it was years ago, but for anyone in the system, they can ride it for years, up until they move over to their non-contributory state pension. Every few weeks we see a case of benefit fraud on the news - where the person gets a slap on the wrist and has to payback a few quid a week for the next 10 years. But that's only 1 results out of hundreds of thousands. They got away with it for 10+years, and there are thousands more that are getting away with it every day. 
I pay a lot of taxes and I work hard, and it really errks me when I see public services like hospitals, schools, care homes,  sports facilities, etc.. in need of upgrades and repairs and the country can't afford it as every year we are spending billions on dole heads. I rest my case.

The_Brood wrote: »

Not gonna dispute your experience, except to say that whenever the new rules were implanted, now you have to be a minimum of one year on the dole to be sent to these agencies.

Thank you. If the rules have since changed last year then you are correct as things stand now then, and that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned given my experience on it. If it has then they should make it more clear on the Citizens Advice website which states: "Supports from JobPath are aimed at people who are long-term unemployed and people who are newly unemployed but who may need intensive support to find work. "http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/employment_supports.html

The_Brood wrote: »

And employees now only meet their targets based on long-term full-time employment work they secure for others. I do not know when they changed this, or indeed whether some offices don't play shenanigans to beef up their numbers, but that is how they are supposed to operate. And some of these offices pay people transportation costs to encourage them to come for appointments.

Best practice and what actually happens are two different things then if you know that to be the case. I did get transportation costs reimbursed, which I was grateful for.
Read the account of how another person was treated on JobPath if you need any further proof of what Seetec are like. http://www.thejournal.ie/jobpath-seetec-employment-3633723-Oct2017/
There was a long running thread, now closed in the Jobs forum on people's experiences on it and it was a litany of stories like this:

"He was prohibited from accepting any other external offers of employment during the training time and threatened with sanctions if he accepted work outside of the JobPath scenario. Eventually he could not refuse work any longer and he took a job.
She said the man and his new employer became absolutely pestered by Seetec Ltd to fill in forms, stating that JobPath had actually secured the employment for him, which it had not.
When he refused to do so he was cajoled, shouted at, threatened and harassed. The same happened to his employer, so much so that eventually the employer signed the forms,” she added.

The_Brood wrote: »

As for being for profit - their employees are not paid by the government, and so income is required.

Indeed, which makes it open to all forms of abuse as stated-read up on how Seetec Ltd has been the subject of a fraud investigation in the UK following its actions while under contract to the UK Department of Work and Pensions. That's the kind of company the DSP employs to deal with job seekers in Ireland! why?

because they could not care less about whether they provide a top quality, effective and well run service that will really benefit unemployed people, only how they can get people off the live register as you don't have to sign on when you are "invited" i.e. forced onto JobPath. In addition to costing the state less to outsource to private interests what has traditionally been work down by the DSP and Fas/Solas... whatever they're called now. It's the privatisation of public services.

The_Brood wrote: »

I know the article talks about a 2000 people experiment, but my question is what is the end game. If they implement a real living wage for all citizens, not just barely scraping by but something you can adequately function with - sure that will be fantastic, but I would be amazed as to where the government would get the money. How many people will actually want to be employed? Especially the coming generations who will lose the fear of having to do jobs or education they don't like in order to survive, which is basically the majority of humankind.

Uh that's a good thing if people are free from fear and worry!! who wouldn't want that? I don't know your circumstances but imagine you had enough money where you didn't have to work. You might think you would spend all day on the beach or whatever and never do any work ever again, but actually you probably would after the novelty wears off because a life without any work has no purpose or meaning. Look at how lottery winners lives often fall apart after a big win. Human beings need purpose and the satisfaction through some kind of work...work freely chosen. That's the difference. And the desire for knowledge and education is also another natural human desire-look at how many scientists have done research even though they may not get paid for it, look at how artists must paint because of their drive to create, regardless of profit.

Well in Finland one aim is to simplify a complex state welfare system-current rules make it impossible for any unemployed who wants to be self employed to do so for example because then they don't qualify for job seekers benefit and would have to have thousands in savings to start a business. Pirkko Mattila, the Finnish Minister for Social Affairs and Health stated “The social security system has become complex over time, and needs simplification”. She hopes participants in the Finnish pilot will find it easier to take short-term jobs and start their own businesses.
That's the Govt. take on it.

Taxes are paying for it I imagine as they already are all the other benefits their citizens receive like housing benefit and children allowance. This basic income amount supplement-€560 a month for two years is only a fraction of the very generous state benefits all Finns receive. Equality is a very important grounding principle in the Nordic countries. I lived and worked there many years and experienced it myself. They don't baulk at paying another 1 or 2% extra in taxes if they see it will benefit their society as a whole.

Look at the anarchist chap on the video in the link-he's busier than ever coming up with creative ideas for work even though he has his basic income. Without money worries it has freed his time and imagination up to be able to really think about what he wants to do in life to find satisfaction and fulfilment through work, rather than just doing some boring unsatisfying job because he needs the money.

The_Brood wrote: »

Who is going to want to do so many of the jobs that are necessary but are not so appealing? Will extra money be enough incentive, if you can already live alright and with no social stigma? The jobs which people love and would do regardless of pay are very few and very far between. Where will the tax money come from to pay for it all?

Many jobs could be done away entirely with that do not benefit society or the planet or automated-that's one thing. Another is those jobs that are unappealing but essential-e.g sewage treatment could be done on a rota or shared job system if it came to that, where everyone has to do a few hours every week in order for essential services to keep running. It's not beyond the bounds of human ingenuity to solve such problems and not a reason certainly not to try universal basic income at least on a pilot basis as in Finland.

It will be interesting to see the costs and benefits of it after the trial is over, then we may have some clearer information on if it would work if they implemented a full living wage. Until then I say well done to them

Rory28  "Poorly spaced too I might add"

[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]FYI ... . I did space into paragraphs it but it changed format after posting it [/font]