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What % of pple on the dole deserve to be on it?

The_Brood

In your rough estimate, how many people who are on the dole deserve to be getting such social benefits, either due to severe physical or mental disability or whatever criteria you hold to be legitimate? 90%? 60? 30?

And how many do you think are just having a good time on your heard earned money, enjoying state-sponsored theft of tax money as you slave away at your job, sometimes unable to even get a proper night's sleep? Gaming the system in any way that they can that will allow them to stay on the dole?

Because as someone who knows someone who has access to information quite relevant to the question....let me tell you that it's worse than you can expect. Much worse.

I am first in line to argue that those in the former category deserve every bit of help, don't get me wrong...but how are people, politicians, just anyone ok with how remarkably large the latter group is?

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Cheerful Spring

We are lucky is there not 40+ percent youth unemployment in Spain. That 40 percent of the population that is struggling at a young age. Things will only get worse in the future when factory employers start using machines and AI to do jobs that humans are currently now doing. I was unemployed in 2010 around the recession and took me a couple of years to find a new job. It not easy to find a job if you have no experience or current experience. A lot of people could be out of work since the recession and there are no jobs for them. I will say if you fit to work and never worked ever then it's fairly obvious you decided to sit on the bum for your whole life.

Mrs OBumble

batistuta9 wrote: »

Not really, after that you just transfer to jobseekers allowance.

Not necessarily. It's income and asset tested, so a co-habiting partner earning even a modest income means that you get nothing.

flutered

a far smaller percentage, that a present minister screwing the system by getting driven to work on a roundabout route, to collect far bigger exes

batistuta9

Shenshen wrote: »

You do know that's pretty much what's happening already anyway, yes?

"Jobseeker's Benefit is paid for 9 months (234 days) for people with 260 or more PRSI contributions paid. It is paid for 6 months (156 days) for people with fewer than 260 PRSI contributions paid."

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_benefit.html

Not really, after that you just transfer to jobseekers allowance.

Rory28

Shenshen wrote: »

You do know that's pretty much what's happening already anyway, yes?

"Jobseeker's Benefit is paid for 9 months (234 days) for people with 260 or more PRSI contributions paid. It is paid for 6 months (156 days) for people with fewer than 260 PRSI contributions paid."

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_benefit.html

I do but I have an issue with the courses on offer.

Shenshen

Rory28 wrote: »

It was a ridiculous post. You were saying we take a leaf from some asian countries which forces people to do whatever they can to survive because they live in extreme poverty.

You are throwing out extreme examples of people claiming the welfare. The way I think the dole should be run has already been mentioned. If you're fit and able for work and haven't found any in 6 months then its time to upskill or have your payment reduced. We have nothing to learn from countries in extreme poverty for how we help our own poor.

You do know that's pretty much what's happening already anyway, yes?

"Jobseeker's Benefit is paid for 9 months (234 days) for people with 260 or more PRSI contributions paid. It is paid for 6 months (156 days) for people with fewer than 260 PRSI contributions paid."

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_benefit.html

somefeen

Its funny how it would have been easier to scam the dole during the boom years. I remember when you could get payments straight into your bank and sign on once a month or so.
It was all very hands off.

I don't think most people who complain about long term welfare recipients understand how much has changed or how it works now.

[Deleted User]

Juran wrote: »

Agree - life is cheap there and they don't have a great quality of life. I never said we should adopt their model, the point I was making is that the dole heads in Ireland have it so easy compared with other parts of the world.

Which is likely why so many people want to migrate to western countries. Western lifestyles are generally much better than other countries.

There's also the difference in cost of living too, although that's starting to change in Asia for lower income levels. I suspect you have very little understanding of the shockingly bad lifestyles the poor have to live through in those countries.

Take China for example. You get old (say over 60), amd you're thrown out of your apartment (no private ownership of property, it's all owned by the state). Ageism is rife, can't get real work, no pensions (except for some government jobs, and even then it's very low and unreliable), no unemployment or welfare available. So you get a job sweeping the streets or collecting plastic bottles from the wastebins. Great! No permanent work, you're competing against a few million other elderly people, corruption is rampant (so you need to bribe others for daily job placements, and you mightn't get paid at the end anyway), no healthcare for the poor. Then add in the government militia to beat you up, the police who force you to sleep outside the city limits, criminal gangs control the streets especially near construction areas, etc.

Yup. Those on the dole definitely have it better here. Well done pointing that out. :rolleyes:

And I refer to dole heads as the % who have no intention of looking for work ever.

I have seen dozens of these kinds of threads and statements on boards, and I've yet to see any definitive statistics to show the numbers of people who have "no intention of working ever" (or even to show the numbers obviously taking advantage of the system)... Instead, you get these generalized statements assuming the numbers involved. Plucking numbers or percentages out of the air to justify their quite odd "beliefs".

So... any reliable statistics or evidence to back up your statements?

Rory28

Juran wrote: »

Agree - life is cheap there and they don't have a great quality of life. I never said we should adopt their model, the point I was making is that the dole heads in Ireland have it so easy compared with other parts of the world. And I refer to dole heads as the % who have no intention of looking for work ever.

Rory28 - 'Ridiculous post' ?? So you don't mind Irish tax money being spent to support the lifestyle of those who chose not to work ? You don't mind that they are let away with long term benefits and working on the side? If you lost your job in the morning, you don't mind that you will receive less financial support than the guy who is 15 years on the dole? unless you are going to contribute to the discussion, I suggest you get a life!

It was a ridiculous post. You were saying we take a leaf from some asian countries which forces people to do whatever they can to survive because they live in extreme poverty.

You are throwing out extreme examples of people claiming the welfare. The way I think the dole should be run has already been mentioned. If you're fit and able for work and haven't found any in 6 months then its time to upskill or have your payment reduced. We have nothing to learn from countries in extreme poverty for how we help our own poor.

Oranage2

seamus wrote: »

Who cares?

So long as they're getting enough money for their smokes and their booze it means they'll stay off the streets and won't be out robbing houses.

It's not like if you cut off the people who don't want to work, that they're going to get up the next day, stick on a shirt and tie and go get a job.

One way or another, the people working will pay for the ones who won't. I'd rather pay in a structured way than have a robbery-lottery to find out whose house will be burgled next.

Well I don't think it's right that we must appease these people by basically 'bribing' them not to do any crimes.

And my suggestion is not to cut welfare, but put in place a 10-15 hour a week over 2-3 days mandatory community service in order to receive welfare. This way, the long term unemployed keep their payments while also getting a sense of achievement from working and the tax payer is getting cleaner streets and old people are have some company.

Greentopia

The_Brood wrote: »

Will extra money be enough incentive, if you can already live alright and with no social stigma? The jobs which people love and would do regardless of pay are very few and very far between.

Sorry Brood, I see I didn't address these points in my last reply.

Extra money be enough incentive to work? yes I believe so. It depends on what kind of lifestyle and level of income you consider essential I suppose and as I stated-I believe there is an inherent desire and need for the vast majority of people to do meaningful and fulfilling work they will derive satisfaction from.

If the jobs people love and would do regardless are very few and far between then that is a lot down to personal choice is it not, and fulfilling the expectations of society, parents, teachers and so on of the jobs they should be doing rather than people deciding to forge their own path find their vocation in life.

It also shows that the system we live under is not working for a lot of people if they have to endure jobs they hate just to put food on the table. Which is one of the purposes of basic income support-to give people back control, freedom and choice in their lives.

I know circumstances beyond the control of some make that difficult if not impossible-full time carers or those with disabilities for example, but I think we can all do something to fulfil some of our dreams or goals in life even if it's only in spare time as a hobby.

And there is no social stigma in Finland to getting money from the state btw because people pay high taxes there and expect something back through the mode of income distribution via the state, and income top ups, supports and benefits of various kinds bring everyone up to a minimum reasonable level of income that everyone can live on without living in poverty.

Juran

Rory28 "Poorly spaced too I might add"

[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]FYI ... . I did space into paragraphs it but it changed format after posting it [/font]

Juran

Deleted User wrote: »

But then, life is very cheap in Asia.

Aren't western countries supposed to be better than that?

Agree - life is cheap there and they don't have a great quality of life. I never said we should adopt their model, the point I was making is that the dole heads in Ireland have it so easy compared with other parts of the world. And I refer to dole heads as the % who have no intention of looking for work ever.

Rory28 wrote: »

Juran wrote: »

if they don't work, they don't eat, plain and simple. Sounds tough, but Ireland could take a leaf out of their book.

Ridiculous post. Poorly spaced too I might add.

Rory28 - 'Ridiculous post' ?? So you don't mind Irish tax money being spent to support the lifestyle of those who chose not to work ? You don't mind that they are let away with long term benefits and working on the side? If you lost your job in the morning, you don't mind that you will receive less financial support than the guy who is 15 years on the dole? unless you are going to contribute to the discussion, I suggest you get a life!

Hector Savage

42 and one half percent OP ..

Rory28

Juran wrote: »

if they don't work, they don't eat, plain and simple. Sounds tough, but Ireland could take a leaf out of their book.

Ridiculous post. Poorly spaced too I might add.

Greentopia

The_Brood wrote: »

Not gonna dispute your experience, except to say that whenever the new rules were implanted, now you have to be a minimum of one year on the dole to be sent to these agencies.

Thank you. If the rules have since changed last year then you are correct as things stand now then, and that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned given my experience on it. If it has then they should make it more clear on the Citizens Advice website which states: "Supports from JobPath are aimed at people who are long-term unemployed and people who are newly unemployed but who may need intensive support to find work. "http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/employment_supports.html

The_Brood wrote: »

And employees now only meet their targets based on long-term full-time employment work they secure for others. I do not know when they changed this, or indeed whether some offices don't play shenanigans to beef up their numbers, but that is how they are supposed to operate. And some of these offices pay people transportation costs to encourage them to come for appointments.

Best practice and what actually happens are two different things then if you know that to be the case. I did get transportation costs reimbursed, which I was grateful for.
Read the account of how another person was treated on JobPath if you need any further proof of what Seetec are like. http://www.thejournal.ie/jobpath-seetec-employment-3633723-Oct2017/
There was a long running thread, now closed in the Jobs forum on people's experiences on it and it was a litany of stories like this:

"He was prohibited from accepting any other external offers of employment during the training time and threatened with sanctions if he accepted work outside of the JobPath scenario. Eventually he could not refuse work any longer and he took a job.
She said the man and his new employer became absolutely pestered by Seetec Ltd to fill in forms, stating that JobPath had actually secured the employment for him, which it had not.
When he refused to do so he was cajoled, shouted at, threatened and harassed. The same happened to his employer, so much so that eventually the employer signed the forms,” she added.

The_Brood wrote: »

As for being for profit - their employees are not paid by the government, and so income is required.

Indeed, which makes it open to all forms of abuse as stated-read up on how Seetec Ltd has been the subject of a fraud investigation in the UK following its actions while under contract to the UK Department of Work and Pensions. That's the kind of company the DSP employs to deal with job seekers in Ireland! why?

because they could not care less about whether they provide a top quality, effective and well run service that will really benefit unemployed people, only how they can get people off the live register as you don't have to sign on when you are "invited" i.e. forced onto JobPath. In addition to costing the state less to outsource to private interests what has traditionally been work down by the DSP and Fas/Solas... whatever they're called now. It's the privatisation of public services.

The_Brood wrote: »

I know the article talks about a 2000 people experiment, but my question is what is the end game. If they implement a real living wage for all citizens, not just barely scraping by but something you can adequately function with - sure that will be fantastic, but I would be amazed as to where the government would get the money. How many people will actually want to be employed? Especially the coming generations who will lose the fear of having to do jobs or education they don't like in order to survive, which is basically the majority of humankind.

Uh that's a good thing if people are free from fear and worry!! who wouldn't want that? I don't know your circumstances but imagine you had enough money where you didn't have to work. You might think you would spend all day on the beach or whatever and never do any work ever again, but actually you probably would after the novelty wears off because a life without any work has no purpose or meaning. Look at how lottery winners lives often fall apart after a big win. Human beings need purpose and the satisfaction through some kind of work...work freely chosen. That's the difference. And the desire for knowledge and education is also another natural human desire-look at how many scientists have done research even though they may not get paid for it, look at how artists must paint because of their drive to create, regardless of profit.

Well in Finland one aim is to simplify a complex state welfare system-current rules make it impossible for any unemployed who wants to be self employed to do so for example because then they don't qualify for job seekers benefit and would have to have thousands in savings to start a business. Pirkko Mattila, the Finnish Minister for Social Affairs and Health stated “The social security system has become complex over time, and needs simplification”. She hopes participants in the Finnish pilot will find it easier to take short-term jobs and start their own businesses.
That's the Govt. take on it.

Taxes are paying for it I imagine as they already are all the other benefits their citizens receive like housing benefit and children allowance. This basic income amount supplement-€560 a month for two years is only a fraction of the very generous state benefits all Finns receive. Equality is a very important grounding principle in the Nordic countries. I lived and worked there many years and experienced it myself. They don't baulk at paying another 1 or 2% extra in taxes if they see it will benefit their society as a whole.

Look at the anarchist chap on the video in the link-he's busier than ever coming up with creative ideas for work even though he has his basic income. Without money worries it has freed his time and imagination up to be able to really think about what he wants to do in life to find satisfaction and fulfilment through work, rather than just doing some boring unsatisfying job because he needs the money.

The_Brood wrote: »

Who is going to want to do so many of the jobs that are necessary but are not so appealing? Will extra money be enough incentive, if you can already live alright and with no social stigma? The jobs which people love and would do regardless of pay are very few and very far between. Where will the tax money come from to pay for it all?

Many jobs could be done away entirely with that do not benefit society or the planet or automated-that's one thing. Another is those jobs that are unappealing but essential-e.g sewage treatment could be done on a rota or shared job system if it came to that, where everyone has to do a few hours every week in order for essential services to keep running. It's not beyond the bounds of human ingenuity to solve such problems and not a reason certainly not to try universal basic income at least on a pilot basis as in Finland.

It will be interesting to see the costs and benefits of it after the trial is over, then we may have some clearer information on if it would work if they implemented a full living wage. Until then I say well done to them

[Deleted User]

Juran wrote: »

I recently visited a country in south-east Asia where there is no unemployment benefits. Every single person gets up every day and does some form of work to survive eg. street cleaning, selling bits and bops on the streets, repairing bikes at the road side, etc... if they don't work, they don't eat, plain and simple. Sounds tough, but Ireland could take a leaf out of their book. I also learnt that that they have very low crime rates, as people are too busy working to have time for vandalizing, robbing cars, farms and old people, road racing, and up-to-no-good hanging out on the streets with a cans of cider smoking weed.

Which country are you referring to?

I lived a decade in China (and traveled extensively throughout Asia) which is similar to what you're referring to, but it's very much a surface scan, considering that most crime statistics in Asian countries are not reported (or reported accurately). Most Asian countries have serious issues with graft and corruption, and the manner in which the state protects its citizens is almost non-existent.

But then, life is very cheap in Asia.

Aren't western countries supposed to be better than that? [I also wonder did you spend any time looking at the quality of life (or life expectancy) for the average person living in those conditions?]

Juran

I recently visited a country in south-east Asia where there is no unemployment benefits. Every single person gets up every day and does some form of work to survive eg. street cleaning, selling bits and bops on the streets, repairing bikes at the road side, etc... if they don't work, they don't eat, plain and simple. Sounds tough, but Ireland could take a leaf out of their book. I also learnt that that they have very low crime rates, as people are too busy working to have time for vandalizing, robbing cars, farms and old people, road racing, and up-to-no-good hanging out on the streets with a cans of cider smoking weed.
I estimate that less than 20% of people on the dole in Ireland today (ie. 18-65 year old, not sick and not disabled) genuinely qualify for unemployment benefits and that these 20% are looking for work and to better their life. I know approx. 15 people very well who are on the dole, all long term on the dole (10 years +), and every single one works cash in hand at their leisure, probably coming out with more each week that the guy down the local factory who gets up at 6am, works 40 hours a week, gets 20 days annual leave and pays all his taxes. and I think all of us know unmarried couples with kids, where the mother is claiming dole with single-parent supplement, and the father is working full time.
And we ask why? because of the easy and generous social benefits culture the government has implemented over the past 40 years. These people (as mentioned above) remain on the dole as no one is chasing them, no one is demanding they find a job, no one is checking up on them. The department of social protection could never have enough resources to check every single person every week, and the gardaí are also stretched, but where they can improve is in the area of the power they are given. We need dedicated social benefit officers who's one job is carrying out spot-checks, and that they can arrest and hold people, like anyone suspected of a crime. Look at the ICE (immigration control) in the US, they walk into a work place and if you are working / living there illegally, you are picked up and dealt with with full force. I may not agree with automatic deportation and splitting up families, but I am making the point as I would like to see similar powers given to dole officers in Ireland. If we did, you would see people coming off the dole very quickly. Yes, its tougher now to walk in and sign on than it was years ago, but for anyone in the system, they can ride it for years, up until they move over to their non-contributory state pension. Every few weeks we see a case of benefit fraud on the news - where the person gets a slap on the wrist and has to payback a few quid a week for the next 10 years. But that's only 1 results out of hundreds of thousands. They got away with it for 10+years, and there are thousands more that are getting away with it every day.
I pay a lot of taxes and I work hard, and it really errks me when I see public services like hospitals, schools, care homes, sports facilities, etc.. in need of upgrades and repairs and the country can't afford it as every year we are spending billions on dole heads. I rest my case.

Greentopia

Oranage2 wrote: »

So instead of actually really trying to look for a job you just took the piss?

And any help or interview skills they offered you thought you were above it?

This reply was directed to me I presume?

I didn't say I wasn't looking for work just because I found the Turas Nua experience a sham. I looked for jobs in my own time, and knew not to expect much after the first meeting and what my "progression plan" was to be.

I expressed an interest in starting my own business from the first meeting and it was like I said nothing-he didn't want to know because that's not part of their remit. So that told me it's not a service that's there to help with what jobs people actually want or are suitable for, it's to find people work of any kind they can get. Regardless of any nicely worded stated objectives on their website or 'mission statements'.

Perhaps it does offer some people help if you completely lack any computer skills for example or don't know how to do up a CV, or have no clue as to how to conduct yourself at an interview, but I couldn't derive any benefits from it because I wasn't in that category.

And yes I was actually above the level of help that was offered because it was very basic stuff that should be taught in schools, not to adults with a third level education with years of experience in the jobs market. Why was everyone lumped in together and put in a class teaching these basic skills regardless of educational attainments or job experience?

You could have someone with a PhD. and 10 years work experience in a classroom with an early school leaver with no qualifications or experience in the world of work. It's absurd and a waste of everyone's time to run it like this and not tailor courses or skills classes to the needs of their clients. That's basic stuff, but was beyond either their capabilities or interest to get it right apparently. All they had to do was look at our CV's to see what level of help was suitable for each person.

Despite the obvious shortcomings of the scheme I should add I was respectful, polite and co-operative at all times to the guy assigned to deal with my case. Was very glad I had a reason to be able to finish it well ahead of time though.

Brendan Bendar

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Maybe our educational system is failing to address their needs, leading to them signing on?

Maybe they are lazy oafs who think the world owes them a living?

Jim Bob Scratcher

Geuze wrote: »

There are 163,500 unemployed people in Ireland, 2017 Q3.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lfs/labourforcesurveyquarter32017/

In Aug 2017 there were 250,000 on the Live Register.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lr/liveregisterdecember2017/

BTEA most likely the reason for those figures

Paddy Cow

My biggest gripe with the dole is that people who have been working for years and paying their PRSI get less than someone who is long term unemployed. It's a slap in the face to get €193 per week but be told that you can't get the fuel allowance until you've been unemployed for over a year. That's just stupid. You should get higher to start with based on what you've paid into the system and then have it lowered over a period of time. Why on earth are they rewarding long termers by giving them more benefits plus christmas bonus??? The longer someone is on the dole the less motivated they become. Don't be making it easier by handing over more money.

A poster lost their job after 14 years and they'll be getting less than someone who hasn't worked in 14 years. That's absolute madness.

The_Brood

Greentopia wrote: »

Nope. I was only on the dole about 6 weeks when I got the letter that I was to attend a meeting in my local Turas Nua office and I got put on their crap JobPath scheme. Something you're given no choice in btw.

I was indeed asked what my qualifications were and then expected to look for work in that area. Nothing was offered that I could not have done myself in my own time.
I could have been looking for jobs online instead of coming into an office to do so on their computers. And many others I saw there were simply parked in front of a computer to do the same thing.
I was given "help" in updating my CV that I was later informed by a CV writing service was a load of tosh. I was told I had to pick three areas I was interested in looking for employment in, not just the one I was qualified for. I ended up making jobs up just to come up with something. Ridiculous. The 'Personal Advisor' knew what I was doing and just went along with it. It was just an exercise in ticking boxes off on an online assessment supposedly to see what my strengths and weakness were and suitability for certain types of work-all in the form of dozens of multiple choice questions.
He then went over the same thing a few weeks later to see if any of my answers had changed. Then again a few weeks after that. Complete waste of time.

I told him I was looking into possible job opportunities in a certain employer. He did not ask if it was full time long term employment, he just asked to get back to him the following meeting on how it went.

The rest of the time for several months we chatted not about job opportunities-of which there were few of any value where I lived as he well knew, but of his experience living here in Germany- I told him I was thinking of moving here, and we chatted about when he went to Uni here and what he thought of it, about my previous employment history and the area of work I was in, and how I came to be interested in it. This was all just filling in time basically because we both knew there was little else he could do for me, but he was forced to go through the motions of these update interviews every six weeks because it was his job to do so. Nice enough chap but a complete waste of time as I said.

Oh and I was put on an interview assessment course that was also a waste of time because it was seemingly devised and tailored for those with...shall we say limited education and I found myself bored to death with it. Fortunately it only lasted 3 hours instead of the scheduled 6. :pac:

The 'punish' part is the threat that if you don't play along with the charade your dole will be cut off.

I'm not eagerly trying to find work now as I work P/T for myself right now and my circumstances have changed completely. Yes I did want to find work, as do most who are unemployed-there have been studies done proving this.

It's not that they're badly managed, it's that they are there for their own purposes-to make a profit, not to get the best outcome possible for their 'clients', because as I said the DSP has decided to outsource what should be a state service to the private sector. Some individuals working there I'm sure do their best, but if they were genuinely trying to get people into suitable jobs it would have been structured a hell of a lot differently than it was.

No, just a small cohort of 2000 unemployed on a trial basis. For now. Read the article again and watch the video if you can't see the benefits of it to the unemployed who were chosen to participate.

Not gonna dispute your experience, except to say that whenever the new rules were implanted, now you have to be a minimum of one year on the dole to be sent to these agencies. And employees now only meet their targets based on long-term full-time employment work they secure for others. I do not know when they changed this, or indeed whether some offices don't play shenanigans to beef up their numbers, but that is how they are supposed to operate. And some of these offices pay people transportation costs to encourage them to come for appointments.

As for being for profit - their employees are not paid by the government, and so income is required.

I know the article talks about a 2000 people experiment, but my question is what is the end game. If they implement a real living wage for all citizens, not just barely scraping by but something you can adequately function with - sure that will be fantastic, but I would be amazed as to where the government would get the money. How many people will actually want to be employed? Especially the coming generations who will lose the fear of having to do jobs or education they don't like in order to survive, which is basically the majority of humankind. Who is going to want to do so many of the jobs that are necessary but are not so appealing? Will extra money be enough incentive, if you can already live alright and with no social stigma? The jobs which people love and would do regardless of pay are very few and very far between. Where will the tax money come from to pay for it all?

[Deleted User]

batistuta9 wrote: »

What kind of freelance work do you do?

Pretty much anything I can win a bid for.

Websites (the usual css/js/wp/bootstrap/etc), database work, ecom, some minor app development re html.

Started recently with 3d design (mostly structural and architectural design environments), some animation and modeling, a little bit of video logo design.

Still feeling my way through it all. I have no design background so there is sooo much to learn, and in spite of all the forums saying that the market is saturated with designers, there still is money to be made (even if you're new like me, it's better than the dole).

Oranage2

So instead of actually really trying to look for a job you just took the piss?

And any help or interview skills they offered you thought you were above it?

Greentopia

The_Brood wrote: »

I am sorry but the bolded part is completely not true. First of all, only people who have been on the dole for over a year get placed on those programs, and the majority have been on it for much longer than that.

Nope. I was only on the dole about 6 weeks when I got the letter that I was to attend a meeting in my local Turas Nua office and I got put on their crap JobPath scheme. Something you're given no choice in btw.

The_Brood wrote: »

Second of all, you are put forth only for jobs that you want to do, and those that match your experience and qualifications. There is absolutely no way shape or form they can do anything to "punish" you for not wanting to do a particular job. What is more, temporary jobs do not check anyone's list - only full-time long term employment passes. These are the facts, not what you are claiming.

I was indeed asked what my qualifications were and then expected to look for work in that area. Nothing was offered that I could not have done myself in my own time.
I could have been looking for jobs online instead of coming into an office to do so on their computers. And many others I saw there were simply parked in front of a computer to do the same thing.
I was given "help" in updating my CV that I was later informed by a CV writing service was a load of tosh. I was told I had to pick three areas I was interested in looking for employment in, not just the one I was qualified for. I ended up making jobs up just to come up with something. Ridiculous. The 'Personal Advisor' knew what I was doing and just went along with it. It was just an exercise in ticking boxes off on an online assessment supposedly to see what my strengths and weakness were and suitability for certain types of work-all in the form of dozens of multiple choice questions.
He then went over the same thing a few weeks later to see if any of my answers had changed. Then again a few weeks after that. Complete waste of time.

I told him I was looking into possible job opportunities in a certain employer. He did not ask if it was full time long term employment, he just asked to get back to him the following meeting on how it went.

The rest of the time for several months we chatted not about job opportunities-of which there were few of any value where I lived as he well knew, but of his experience living here in Germany- I told him I was thinking of moving here, and we chatted about when he went to Uni here and what he thought of it, about my previous employment history and the area of work I was in, and how I came to be interested in it. This was all just filling in time basically because we both knew there was little else he could do for me, but he was forced to go through the motions of these update interviews every six weeks because it was his job to do so. Nice enough chap but a complete waste of time as I said.

Oh and I was put on an interview assessment course that was also a waste of time because it was seemingly devised and tailored for those with...shall we say limited education and I found myself bored to death with it. Fortunately it only lasted 3 hours instead of the scheduled 6. :pac:

The 'punish' part is the threat that if you don't play along with the charade your dole will be cut off.

The_Brood wrote: »

You are portraying yourself as someone who is eagerly trying to find work who had a bad experience with those agencies - if so, count yourself among a small percentage, because many who end up there will do anything not to work.

I'm not eagerly trying to find work now as I work P/T for myself right now and my circumstances have changed completely. Yes I did want to find work, as do most who are unemployed-there have been studies done proving this.

The_Brood wrote: »

Whether badly managed or not, these agencies are some of the few actually finding unemployed people work.

It's not that they're badly managed, it's that they are there for their own purposes-to make a profit, not to get the best outcome possible for their 'clients', because as I said the DSP has decided to outsource what should be a state service to the private sector. Some individuals working there I'm sure do their best, but if they were genuinely trying to get people into suitable jobs it would have been structured a hell of a lot differently than it was.

The_Brood wrote: »

I'm reading that article on Finland - it does not clarify, is the "universal" basic income for all people? So employed people will also be being paid that monthly sum (which comes from their own taxes...)? Because if it's only for unemployed people...then I fail to see how it is any different from any other social welfare system - except that it imposes even less expectations on people to search for work.

No, just a small cohort of 2000 unemployed on a trial basis. For now. Read the article again and watch the video if you can't see the benefits of it to the unemployed who were chosen to participate.

doolox

Many of the courses offered to unemployed are not focused enough to get people off the dole and into real good paying jobs. Why are there so few tilers, plumbers plasterers etc in our country???

There is never a decent tradesman around when you need one yet there are 100's of software and computer and IT courses around which do not deliver the jobs promised when the course is done.

batistuta9

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Agreed.

A lot of the courses available are extremely basic and have no real use beyond the piece of paper it represents. Employers aren't going to be impressed with many of them. Fact is, unless you apply for the springboard courses (which have many limitations anyway), very few other courses are of any real use. They're designed simply to keep people occupied rather than giving employable skills.

TBH I really wish that Ireland would commit to better courses in IT/programming. Most of the courses available are foundation courses, or aimed at areas which are declining. For example, there are jobs in Java programming, but the whole area is gradually being taken over by other languages. And yet, most of the programming courses outside of the springboard relate to dying industries and/or are focused on providing a very simple introduction (Cloud computing is nice, but the courses available are rather simple).

I taught myself programming in 3 languages within six months (zero previous experience). I'm not wonderful at it (yet) but I can do enough freelance work to provide for myself. I'm also doing web/3D Design, and other graphical related material. It provides me with a fairly decent income, and I can't quite understand why there aren't more "professional" courses available to learn this stuff. (without having to fork out thousands to a private school)

I'm teaching myself advanced Javascript now (udemy, youtube), because of the huge demand for Javascript programmers in Europe and Asia. But you don't see many courses being offered to prepare the unemployed to take advantage of this shortage. Or any of the other shortages going around.

It seems to me that Irish education is doomed to repeat its mistakes. Aiming to stick people in training without considering whether that training will get people employed long-term.

What kind of freelance work do you do?

Geuze

There are 163,500 unemployed people in Ireland, 2017 Q3.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lfs/labourforcesurveyquarter32017/

In Aug 2017 there were 250,000 on the Live Register.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lr/liveregisterdecember2017/

[Deleted User]

BillyBobBS wrote: »

And one wonders why Boards isn't relevant.

And yet, here you are. :rolleyes: