What % of pple on the dole deserve to be on it?

the_pen_turner

everyone on the ole should be automatically on a CE scheme . you want your money you do 19.5 hours a week. sent them out picking rubbish and sweeping the streets. cutting hedges, powerwashing the footpaths ,
there are thousands of jobs in every area that need doing.

look at the state of our country. it really needs a good clean. imagine thousands of people out everyday cleaning up

win win and it would make people less likely to create the mess if they had to clean it up

Rory28

BattleCorp wrote: »

While I don't recommend sending people to a shed for 5 days a week where they don't learn anything, it is a good idea to send people somewhere where they learn skills that will increase their employability. You seem to be knocking cv building classes and interview training. Both are useful to people who are actively seeking employment.

Getting people to so something to help increase their employability is far better than paying them to lie in bed all day and do nothing to improve their circumstances.

I completely agree with the first part. A place where people go to learn marketable skills would be great.

But having been on the cv course i can honestly say its a waste of time. fair enough there are people out there who benefit from it but the numbers they are sending to these courses which all gets billed to the DPS is worse than if they had just stayed in bed. It would cost less.

BillyBobBS

piplip87 wrote: »

Back on the dole myself after a long time off it. Travelling to Dublin each day. Leaving at 6 not home until 8. I am only in Virginia an hour and a half away.

People tend to forget when looking at the unemployment figures compared to jobs available, is that most work is in Dublin. Somebody starting out at 25,000 a year cannot move to Dublin, maybe financially better off waiting in Leitrim, Donegal or West Cavan until something closer to home materialises.

A friend of mine went for a job interview only yesterday morning. He wants to get back to work and is sick to death of being sent on training courses and the like. He went to a lot of effort to get the job, pre interview session with a professional recruitment outfit as well as getting his CV spot on etc... It went fantastic until they told him the salary was 20,500 per year for a 40 hr week before tax. :eek:

He lives in Wexford so it's a 2 hour commute each way to Sandyford and by the time he factored in buying a car, insurance, motor tax, servicing costs, consumables, petrol etc.. as well as the loss of rent allowance he would be actually worse off financially signing off the social welfare.

Iv'e been saying it for an eternity but until employers pay a fair wage for a fair days work the dole will remain the better choice for a lot of people.

Macy0161

Rory28 wrote: »

Send them to a shed for 5 days a week? are you serious? Much as you'd like we cant control our populace like this.

The education scheme sounds good but in practice it would just be cv building classes and interview training.

That was the last of my options. It could be the library, but I'd rather it was into education or CE scheme. My main point that sitting at home should not be an option, even if that means going somewhere that isn't "meaningful" - both for the person long term, or for use welfare, being active and doing something should be important. There should be an expectation on people to be showing up for a normal working day, the same as people who are actually working. Lest we forget, to qualify for payment you're supposed to be actively seeking work! Proof should be more than it clearly is.

splinter65

Rory28 wrote: »

Send them to a shed for 5 days a week? are you serious? Much as you'd like we cant control our populace like this.

The education scheme sounds good but in practice it would just be cv building classes and interview training.

http://menssheds.ie/about-us/

It’s not a shed. But you knew that already.

Rory28

splinter65 wrote: »

http://menssheds.ie/about-us/

It’s not a shed. But you knew that already.

As I said already. That sounds great but I still don't see how we can force people to go to this. The education route sure.

Kingp35

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Iv'e been saying it for an eternity but until employers pay a fair wage for a fair days work the dole will remain the better choice for a lot of people.

What type of job was it?

You could also look at it the other way - maybe social welfare benefits are too high and this is the reason people are turning down work rather than the job paying too little.

splinter65

Rory28 wrote: »

As I said already. That sounds great but I still don't see how we can force people to go to this. The education route sure.

It’s not a question of forcing anyone to do anything. JSB is for 9 months max. Right now unemployment in Ireland is dropping like a stone. If you haven’t got a job or gone back into education or training by the time you are going to be meanstested for JSA then the JSA can be subject to you attending something like the men’s shed on a daily basis.
I can’t see what the problem is.
Everyone who has a job only gets paid on the basis that they turn up for work.
What is the difference?

Rory28

splinter65 wrote: »

It’s not a question of forcing anyone to do anything. JSB is for 9 months max. Right now unemployment in Ireland is dropping like a stone. If you haven’t got a job or gone back into education or training by the time you are going to be meanstested for JSA then the JSA can be subject to you attending something like the men’s shed on a daily basis.
I can’t see what the problem is.
Everyone who has a job only gets paid on the basis that they turn up for work.
What is the difference?

There is no payoff. Its just sending them somewhere for the day out of spite because we have to go to work everyday and they dont. If they go the education route then at least they come out of it with some qualification.

splinter65

BillyBobBS wrote: »

A friend of mine went for a job interview only yesterday morning. He wants to get back to work and is sick to death of being sent on training courses and the like. He went to a lot of effort to get the job, pre interview session with a professional recruitment outfit as well as getting his CV spot on etc... It went fantastic until they told him the salary was 20,500 per year for a 40 hr week before tax. :eek:

He lives in Wexford so it's a 2 hour commute each way to Sandyford and by the time he factored in buying a car, insurance, motor tax, servicing costs, consumables, petrol etc.. as well as the loss of rent allowance he would be actually worse off financially signing off the social welfare.

Iv'e been saying it for an eternity but until employers pay a fair wage for a fair days work the dole will remain the better choice for a lot of people.

Does he have kids? Based on those figures he’ll be entitled to FIS.
How many kids does he have and I’ll tell you how much.
I’m assuming his spouse doesn’t work?

Doctor Jimbob

splinter65 wrote: »

It’s not a question of forcing anyone to do anything. JSB is for 9 months max. Right now unemployment in Ireland is dropping like a stone. If you haven’t got a job or gone back into education or training by the time you are going to be meanstested for JSA then the JSA can be subject to you attending something like the men’s shed on a daily basis.
I can’t see what the problem is.
Everyone who has a job only gets paid on the basis that they turn up for work.
What is the difference?

I'm on the dole and can't see a problem with it either.

Absolutely no reason you shouldn't be doing something with your time. It's good for your own mental health if nothing else.

jeffy jefferies

On the scratcher since Jan having been in full time employment for the last 20 years. Still in bed but planning to get up in the next 15 minutes in fairness.

splinter65

jeffy jefferies wrote: »

On the scratcher since Jan having been in full time employment for the last 20 years. Still in bed but planning to get up in the next 15 minutes in fairness.

You just take a break for yourself there. You deserve it after 20 years.

CruelCoin

Kingp35 wrote: »

What type of job was it?

You could also look at it the other way - maybe social welfare benefits are too high and this is the reason people are turning down work rather than the job paying too little.

They are too high.

They are significantly higher than the majority of Europaen countries.

We could do with a little trimming in this regard, given that we're a full blown welfare state.
https://fullfact.org/sites/fullfact.org/files/styles/large/public/GDP_Eurostat_government_social_protection_spending.JPG?itok=x2M-USIb

The Oort Cloud

Look who is the real waster of taxpaying citizens money... Our own government. It looks like there is not only a data protection issue with this card, but it is also a human rights issue as well. And the taxpayers are giving out about people getting a social welfare payment.

So far the public services card project has cost €60 million. The State says it has garnered somewhere between €1.7 million and €2 million in savings. It is costing the State money and there is a significant uncrystallised liability also.

http://www.thejournal.ie/public-services-card-oireachtas-committee-3840426-Feb2018/

Macy0161

Rory28 wrote: »

There is no payoff. Its just sending them somewhere for the day out of spite because we have to go to work everyday and they dont. If they go the education route then at least they come out of it with some qualification.

Not out of spite - keeping them engaged with (what should be) societal norms of getting out of bed in the morning and going to work. It cannot be healthy doing nothing all day - which is one of the main points of the men's sheds you seem to have a downer on. The movement is about promoting social interaction, giving people somewhere to go etc. It would be somewhat productive even on those levels.

Rory28

Macy0161 wrote: »

Not out of spite - keeping them engaged with (what should be) societal norms of getting out of bed in the morning and going to work. It cannot be healthy doing nothing all day - which is one of the main points of the men's sheds you seem to have a downer on. The movement is about promoting social interaction, giving people somewhere to go etc. It would be somewhat productive even on those levels.

As I have repeatedly said. The mens shed sound great. If you are interested in it then I'm sure its very worthwhile but I still dont see how we can force people to go.

I do not have a problem with the mens shed but I do have a problem with making someones claim reliant on attending it.

Macy0161

Rory28 wrote: »

I do not have a problem with the mens shed but I do have a problem with making someones claim reliant on attending it.

Again, as a last resort when they won't engage with other options such as training and education, not as first resort! Doing nothing should not be an option.

Rory28

Macy0161 wrote: »

Again, as a last resort when they won't engage with other options such as training and education, not as first resort! Doing nothing should not be an option.

Thats a different matter all together. If they are not engaging with training and education after 6 months on the welfare then cut or stop the payment. Sending them to the mens shed wont help someone like this.

pilly

_Roz_ wrote: »

Me ma works for social welfare and I can tell ya there's a lot on there who shouldn't be. One of her neighbours claims a payment he's not entitled to, but because she only knows that outside of work, she can't actually do anything about it.

That said unless it's blatently obvious, I'd usually err on the side of empathy for rather than suspicion of someone's reason for being on the dole, as I was on it for a long time myself once.

Yeah, your "ma" is breaking the law by telling you that information too.

koumi

I had to go to the Social earlier to hand in some documents. The first person I spoke to was pretty nice, the second looked like she ate a wasps nest for breakfast and the third just spoke to me like I was retarded and didn't really answer the question that I went there to ask. Two out of three I suppose.

Stonedpilot

koumi wrote: »

I had to go to the Social earlier to hand in some documents. The first person I spoke to was pretty nice, the second looked like she ate a wasps nest for breakfast and the third just spoke to me like I was retarded and didn't really answer the question that I went there to ask. Two out of three I suppose.

Ya didn't do too bad so, in my past experience most that work in welfare offices I think there is a criteria. World weary battle axe type obese middle aged women who have an at the very a best leaving cert education seems to be it.

Amount of times I had to spell basic words to them

"November?. How's that go again?.

Previous work. Illustrator?. How does I spells that?. :rolleyes:

I know welfare offices don't require surgeons brains but I'd imagine it can be demoralizing for some unemployed folk to have to incessantly spell words to a eejit behind the counter who has the brains of a gnat.
Why don't they employ capable educated young people rather than some confused bitter ould one who has trouble with basic words?.


Anyway that's how it goes.

koumi

It is a bit demoralizing to be fair but I suspect there's an amount of grievance instilled in them about people like "us" and maybe the bed was too warm to get out of this morning.

HandsomeBob

The_Brood wrote: »

In your rough estimate, how many people who are on the dole deserve to be getting such social benefits, either due to severe physical or mental disability or whatever criteria you hold to be legitimate? 90%? 60? 30?

And how many do you think are just having a good time on your heard earned money, enjoying state-sponsored theft of tax money as you slave away at your job, sometimes unable to even get a proper night's sleep? Gaming the system in any way that they can that will allow them to stay on the dole?

Because as someone who knows someone who has access to information quite relevant to the question....let me tell you that it's worse than you can expect. Much worse.

I am first in line to argue that those in the former category deserve every bit of help, don't get me wrong...but how are people, politicians, just anyone ok with how remarkably large the latter group is?

If someone can't cope with their job to that level where they can't sleep then maybe they should be big enough to accept that the job isn't for them. That would be a more productive thing to do for you and those around you instead of channelling your bitterness into people who have nothing to do with the choices you've made.

splinter65

Rory28 wrote: »

As I have repeatedly said. The mens shed sound great. If you are interested in it then I'm sure its very worthwhile but I still dont see how we can force people to go.

I do not have a problem with the mens shed but I do have a problem with making someones claim reliant on attending it.

Why though? What specifically is the problem with attaching conditions on state payments? If you could just explain then maybe we could understand.

splinter65

HandsomeBob wrote: »

If someone can't cope with their job to that level where they can't sleep then maybe they should be big enough to accept that the job isn't for them. That would be a more productive thing to do for you and those around you instead of channelling your bitterness into people who have nothing to do with the choices you've made.

There’s disability allowance for people who’s mental health is too precarious to allow them to be productive.
That’s what your describing.
It’s just a question of having medical evidence to back up the claim, which shouldn’t be too difficult.

El Weirdo

splinter65 wrote: »

Why though? What specifically is the problem with attaching conditions on state payments? If you could just explain then maybe we could understand.

There are conditions. You must:

• Be unemployed (you must be fully unemployed or unemployed for at least 4 days out of 7)
• Be capable of work
• Be available for full-time work and genuinely seeking work
• Satisfy the means test
• Meet the habitual residence condition

If you do not meet all of these conditions, you will be denied the payment or have it stopped.

Rory28

splinter65 wrote: »

Why though? What specifically is the problem with attaching conditions on state payments? If you could just explain then maybe we could understand.

We have no right to force someone into a room with a bunch of randoms just so they can claim what we are all entitled too. If they are refusing upskilling or training then by all means cut or suspend their welfare but just because they are on the welfare does not mean we have any agency over their day to day as long as they are looking for work.

HandsomeBob

splinter65 wrote: »

There’s disability allowance for people who’s mental health is too precarious to allow them to be productive.
That’s what your describing.
It’s just a question of having medical evidence to back up the claim, which shouldn’t be too difficult.

Nah all I'm saying is that it's pretty sad if someone who can't cope with their job is taking out their anger at someone on the dole. Get another job if that's the case, and debt is not an excuse either for staying in a high paying job that you're miserable in.

My job comes with its difficulties but not once have I got bitter about people on the scratch. The reason is because I'm a grown ****ing man who made his own choices.

splinter65

El Weirdo wrote: »

There are conditions. You must:

• Be unemployed (you must be fully unemployed or unemployed for at least 4 days out of 7)
• Be capable of work
• Be available for full-time work and genuinely seeking work
• Satisfy the means test
• Meet the habitual residence condition

If you do not meet all of these conditions, you will be denied the payment or have it stopped.

That’s fine but if people have been 9 months without finding a job in our current economy then I think it’s a good idea if they are given the opportunity to get back in a work like routine by making the added condition of attending either the men’s shed or some other community effort which may be of benefit to both the claimant and the environment .