Discovery 1x12 – "Vaulting Ambition" [ SPOILERS ]

fritzelly · 22-01-2018 11:03PM

bluewolf wrote: »

i think both stamets woke up on their respective ships. they showed alt stamets first then ours

Yep, you got it

The whole voq thing still not making sense to me

Anyone know the budget per episode? CGI and sets are top notch - Palace ship was a delight to see!

AtomicHorror · 22-01-2018 11:20PM

CramCycle wrote: »

Not convinced he has, as my understanding is that Tyler is Voq, Voq is not Tyler. I get the impression the med crew haven't a clue what is going on and they think that Tyler has had Voqs memories implanted on top of him. I fully suspect she has just pushed the memories back down, although could be wrong in the face of a mirror universe and religion being a crock of sh1t.

L'Rell thinks Voq is dead at least.

pixelburp · 22-01-2018 11:24PM

Well I hold my hands up, I insisted that Lorca couldn't be of the mirror universe, that it was a stupid idea. I was only half right :P I genuinely didn't think they'd go for this idea, that it'd undermine what had amounted to a complex, interesting take on Trek captaincy, but here we are.

I suppose it at least validates the notion that he's not a proper Trek captain - cos he isn't now, in the most literal sense (I wonder if we'll see a flashback episode of how this Lorca came to replace the real one. Maybe the Buran was destroyed to cover his tracks). I wonder, does this make Discoverys detractors feel better about the overall shape of the show, knowing a larger part of the tonal deviance was intentional? Am curious.

Again though, the mirror universe shenanigans have dominated the discussion, though I think we might be seeing the first steps in ensuring the Spore network fits into canon. Feels like alt Stamets may be responsible for actions that lead to the network dimishing, and if so would certainly drive the Federation to abandon the research, rather than risk destruction of the network.

I did have some faith the continuity would be restored and looks like Discovery has started that correction.

fritzelly · 22-01-2018 11:38PM

Just reading a little ol' theory on reddit and some things kinda fit in nicely but

Section 31 - ship registration, attitude of Lorca (and maybe someone else...)

fxotoole · 23-01-2018 12:18AM

Best episode so far. Good pacing and they’re really getting into the swing of things now. Nice theory confirmation but Lorca’s motivations for doing what he did are now weird and kinda creepy.

hal9550 · 23-01-2018 01:03AM

I was wrong about lorca too - (although ye never know! lol)

As for the IMPERIAL FLAGSHIP

Powered by an artificially contained micro-star?? Pretty awesome!

23-01-2018 01:04AM

feel like I should have seen that coming but didn't. they gave us enough to see it a mile off. Quality writing there.

Goodshape · 23-01-2018 01:16AM

Aw, I really wasn't surprised at all. Thought it was 50/50, will they / won't they... And they did. Not a suprise, just one of the two options available.

So far the only shocking event for me has been Culber's death.

I need to read less r/startrek on Reddit :-p

c.p.w.g.w · 23-01-2018 01:25AM

Goodshape wrote: »

Aw, I really wasn't surprised at all. Thought it was 50/50, will they / won't they... And they did. Not a suprise, just one of the two options available.

So far the only shocking event for me has been Culber's death.

I need to read less r/startrek on Reddit :-p

One of the problems with the internet...

When a show sets up a twist and does it properly they will always be someone who will theorize correctly. And if a show sets it up in a subtle manner its called out as a plot hole because it wasn't built up correctly...

I don't read a huge amount about my tv show online, i just came across a few threads here myself when looking for an netflix related issue.

BlitzKrieg · 23-01-2018 01:54AM

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

One of the problems with the internet...

When a show sets up a twist and does it properly they will always be someone who will theorize correctly. And if a show sets it up in a subtle manner its called out as a plot hole because it wasn't built up correctly...

I don't read a huge amount about my tv show online, i just came across a few threads here myself when looking for an netflix related issue.

My observation. It is worse for filmmakers and tv show runners to try and outplay theory people on reddit, frankly a lot of people get enjoyment out of it, I get it too on some topics, I love talking predictions for certain shows and films, but trying to out twist those guesses has landed a few shows with duds.

JJ Abrams is the best example both in terms of Star Trek (when he tried so so so hard to hide that he was doing Khan when he was obviously doing Khan) and Lost (when it felt like he spent multiple seasons trying to hide what people guessed halfway through the first season)

Better to take the J.K Rowling route and just let them at it and let people decide themselves if they want to read those theories or not. I like to read the ones that end up wrong in retrospective (Neville would have done it in 4 books!), I find it gives a good insight into what people prioritise in their entertainment.

On the episode itself, I wasnt a big fan of last week's episode and I actually hadnt read the star trek reddit much, so this week's twist genuinely did catch me by surprise and I liked it.

I was slightly annoyed at the mirror universe aspect as it felt like discovery doing a bit of what Enterprise did where it was throwing the towel in somewhat on its own thing and diverging directly into *things fans like* territory. Not saying In a mirror darkly was crap, just that it was an excellent 2 part detour away from anything related to enterprise and its success I feel directly influenced why they opted for a Next Generation tie in finale that was ****. Which let's be honest all other use of the mirror universe in the star trek series outside of the original series has been used for detours. Deep Space Nine may have got multiple episodes out of the mirror universe and had fun with it (especially Nana Visitor), but they were firmly detour episodes especially in the latter seasons.

I'm genuinely glad that what felt like for 2 episodes of fan nods (including Sarek with a Goatee) to hold us over while they sat up whatever main plot they intend to do with Tyler has turned out TO BE THE MAIN PLOT and not a detour.

AMKC · 23-01-2018 02:35AM

Wow so Lorca is from the Mirror Universe. Guess should have seen that coming fair play to the ones that did. I found the bit about Micheal betraying the Empress and the Empress about to kill her good but found Micheal getting out of it by telling her she was not actually from her universe as a lazy way out. I also thought it was a bit crazy that the Empress would just kill all her guards just like that surely if they were her top guard they would have been loyal to her. Did not think the device used while very effective was not very Star Trek. Now she has to go get more guards.
I found all the nonsense about the spores as just that nonsense. Really hope they get rid of that part of it.
Do think Micheal is crazy to think she can trust the Empress but maybe she will give her false or wrong information or old information on the spore drive if she does at all.
The episode was very short. Hope the rest are not like that too.

Evade · 23-01-2018 02:45AM

AMKC wrote: »

I also thought it was a bit crazy that the Empress would just kill all her guards just like that surely if they were her top guard they would have been loyal to her.

The two that brought Bunrham in were guards but I think the rest were supposed to be courtiers.

Spear · 23-01-2018 08:47AM

Evade wrote: »

The two that brought Bunrham in were guards but I think the rest were supposed to be courtiers.

They were referred to as Lords of the Empire, with the survivor being a Lord Ealing. But in an empire like that they were always going to be little more than toadying sycophants, so they're plenty disposable. Lord Ealing appears to only have been left alive for the purpose of getting a mop and bucket.

There's a couple of small details people haven't commented on.

It had been implied before the Terran Empire had its roots in the Roman Empire, and the Empress's titles seem to lean into that.

Also they ate the Kelpian. It didn't really add anything to the story, it's just a nicely horrible detail.

ezra_ · 23-01-2018 10:11AM

I think also that the seeds for continuity have been sown in this episode.

There is no further mention of the spore network, because the spore network has been destroyed (and research classified, etc etc).
Somewhat pat, but it does solve timeline issues.

pixelburp · 23-01-2018 10:13AM

Yeah; I remarked to my OH that Burnham didn't know what she was picking from the Kelpians for. I presumed either death or reward, but the actual end-result was particularly horrible. Just when the Terran Empire couldn't get any nastier, they're eating the races they enslave. I've now truly graduated to the point where continuity be damned: I want to see that universe burn.

Someone on another site was speculating though: if the Mirror universe is indeed the reverse of all things, would the Borg exist there & what would they be like? Perhaps a benevolent hive mind, one that invites rather than enslaves, and still retains peoples' personalities despite joining the Collective? It'd be interesting to see.

So if Lorca is not of this universe, surely that's going to leave a gap in the Captain's chair: Saru has definitely stepped up, and his gambit with Tyler in the holding cell showed proper cunning and lateral thinking (I liked the little touch that even when giving orders in the sickbay, he said 'please' to the nurse

)

Johnny Storm · 23-01-2018 10:14AM

AMKC wrote: »

... I also thought it was a bit crazy that the Empress would just kill all her guards just like that surely if they were her top guard they would have been loyal to her. Did not think the device used while very effective was not very Star Trek. Now she has to go get more guards.

Logical flaw with the whole MU idea, IMHO .....

I found all the nonsense about the spores as just that nonsense. Really hope they get rid of that part of it.

Totally agree

TheIrishGrover · 23-01-2018 10:18AM

That wasn't bad...... I think the double fake-out of Lorca was a bit silly. I would have preferred if Lorca was from our universe and just a bit edgier than what we were used to so far. Now we know he's going to go full-goatee and it will be silly. For me it was definitely the weakest episode so far.... And short.

seamus · 23-01-2018 10:21AM

Evade wrote: »

But how? The Charon wasn't there. She says she had to "dispatch them myself" so was there another ship or are there warp speed torpedoes or since she's a gold clad emperor of mankind did she just will them to be destroyed and the warp mycelial network obliged?

I did like the listing of the Empress' titles.

I was under the impression that it was the Defiant that had appeared and wiped out the rebels - the Shenzhou couldn't detect the ship. But maybe it was the Charon.

Spear wrote: »

It had been implied before the Terran Empire had its roots in the Roman Empire, and the Empress's titles seem to lean into that.

She also made mention of the Empire existing for "millennia", which basically confirms it.

Also they ate the Kelpian. It didn't really add anything to the story, it's just a nicely horrible detail.

I think it foreshadowed what happened at the dinner. It illustrated that Burnham still didn't "get" the Terran empire and thought she could save Saru by selecting him.
Likewise if she properly understood the Terrans, she would have been prepared for the dinner to be a trap.

I think to a certain extent the major twists have been cleared up. Now we just have 3 episodes of "how do they get out of this?". Tyler/Voq thing will probably be left to settle until next season and then become a big point again.

The resolution of the spore thing will see the technology shared with the emperor, but then Discovery will make one last jump home, where Stamets will merge with the spore network and make it permanently unusable.

Which would be a shame; I think the series would be legitimately weaker without Stamets and Lorca. Everyone else is too nice, you need two complete assholes to balance things out.

We saw a darker side to Saru in this too; his apparent nervousness makes his an uninspiring captain, but what he did with Tyler was pretty badass. If he does end up Captain, hopefully we see more of that coming out in him.

Johnny Storm · 23-01-2018 11:44AM

Did I see Security Chief Landry in the trailer for next week?
My personal belief is that Lorca and Landry both crossed over to our universe (somehow and probably accidentally) due to the disaster that destroyed the Buran (sp?)
So if Landry is in next weeks ep she is probably the version from our universe and she will no doubt provide lots of information including the location of the Lorca from our universe.

Also, does anyone really think that mirror-Burnham is actually dead? :rolleyes:

jasonb · 23-01-2018 12:08PM

AMKC wrote: »

I also thought it was a bit crazy that the Empress would just kill all her guards just like that surely if they were her top guard they would have been loyal to her. Did not think the device used while very effective was not very Star Trek. Now she has to go get more guards.

Earlier she'd told someone to assemble the Council for Michael's execution, so I assume that was the Council. And when Michael confirmed the existence of the MU, she didn't trust/want the Council to know (as she views the Federation as something that would give her subjects dangerous ideas about 'Freedom' and 'Equality') so she basically took out all the witnesses to Michael's information about the existence of the MU. Apart from the one person she trusted more than the others, or at least viewed him as less of a threat, and got him to clean up!

That's how I viewed it anyhow.

Bacchus · 23-01-2018 12:14PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Someone on another site was speculating though: if the Mirror universe is indeed the reverse of all things, would the Borg exist there & what would they be like? Perhaps a benevolent hive mind, one that invites rather than enslaves, and still retains peoples' personalities despite joining the Collective? It'd be interesting to see.

My understanding of the mirror universe is that it's not a "mirror" strictly speaking. It's not all opposites. It's basically the same as the prime universe but humanity took a more violent course and that had ripples across the galaxy. So a good person isn't automatically a bad person, they just grew up in a universe where humanity is generally a back stabbing lot.

Bacchus · 23-01-2018 12:24PM

Another great episode btw. The Lorca thing was on the cards for a while now but it was still very well done and accounts for the shift in tone from earlier in the season that took some getting used too. It's great to see the team behind the show set up and execute their vision so well.

Only quibble with the episode is Michael inviting the Discovery into what is so obviously a trap. Here's hoping there was a "by the book" moment in her message to Saru.

pixelburp · 23-01-2018 12:31PM

Bacchus wrote: »

My understanding of the mirror universe is that it's not a "mirror" strictly speaking. It's not all opposites. It's basically the same as the prime universe but humanity took a more violent course and that had ripples across the galaxy. So a good person isn't automatically a bad person, they just grew up in a universe where humanity is generally a back stabbing lot.

No no, I get that, I just mean if the Mirror Universe is (often) an excuse to invert or subvert normal characters' statuses, depiction or outlook, what would be an interesting tweak to the Borg that'd work in that universe?

It'd be kinda cool if the Terran Empire, now firmly established as a deeply unequal, racist and fascist organisation, had to fight The Borg, only here the cyborgs are an egalitarian collective, a race trying to unify the galaxy through peace and harmony.

It'd be a difficult needle to thread, given how those kind of hive-mind races in Sci Fi are often skewed towards a certain benevolent malice; so to be seen as good guys it'd want to emphasise that no-one's individualism was lost or absorbed by this 'nice' version of the Borg.

Spear · 23-01-2018 12:44PM

Bacchus wrote: »

Only quibble with the episode is Michael inviting the Discovery into what is so obviously a trap. Here's hoping there was a "by the book" moment in her message to Saru.

Like much of the other elements of the show, they've always foreshadowed things with otherwise innocuous comments. I suspect that Emperors comments about Burnham always trying to do something clever is another example of this.

Goodshape · 23-01-2018 12:48PM

I really don't think the Mirror Universe holds up to any sort of scrutiny when you start thinking of things like continuity.

Everything is different except for the many things which remain – across centuries – exactly the same. Same ships, same crews (more or less), same relationships, plenty of the same key events when it suits the narrative. There's no concept or notion of any sort of butterfly/ripple-effect on the timeline at all.

It seems from the Enterprise episode that First Contact (the film) happened in the MU too, more or less, up to the point of the actual first contact where it became a fun idea to switch things up and shoot the vulcans.

And then, somehow without any of the help that prime-universe Earth had, they managed to get things to a point where the Shenzhou, Discovery, Enterprise, etc., all existed in perfect parallel. Except again for the handful of things that were fun to switch up.

And 100+ years later, DS9 exists and more or less the same people have found their way onboard.

I guess this is why Lorca spoke of some kind of destiny but really, in a "science fiction" show, that's single-ply wet tissue paper thin.

They're making a really good and exciting show of it but it's still the most ridicules concept. I hope they have their fun and get back home by the end of the season.

seamus · 23-01-2018 12:57PM

Goodshape wrote: »

They're making a really good and exciting show of it but it's still the most ridicules concept. I hope they have their fun and get back home by the end of the season.

As I've said in other threads, you can retcon it in by invoking multiverse theory, but then you're left trying to explain away the odds that Federation ships would travel to the same Mirror Universe multiple times rather than any of the other infinite universes.

People really need to stop looking at ST with a microscope and just enjoy the ride.

Greyjoy · 23-01-2018 01:23PM

A good episode in itself but I've got big reservations about the plot developments. The double twist of both Tyler AND Lorca having secret identities feels very repetitive and overloaded. The writers needed to make a choice between one or the other. The twist about Lorca I think makes him a less interesting character for me as it provides too neat an explanation for his personality.

fxotoole · 23-01-2018 03:04PM

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Did I see Security Chief Landry in the trailer for next week?
My personal belief is that Lorca and Landry both crossed over to our universe (somehow and probably accidentally) due to the disaster that destroyed the Buran (sp?)
So if Landry is in next weeks ep she is probably the version from our universe and she will no doubt provide lots of information including the location of the Lorca from our universe.

Also, does anyone really think that mirror-Burnham is actually dead? :rolleyes:

Good spot.

I'm wondering where is Prime-Lorca? Likewise for Mirror-Tyler? I'd like to see them both make appearances.

Stark · 23-01-2018 03:17PM

fxotoole wrote: »

Good spot.

I'm wondering where is Prime-Lorca?

I'm guessing blown up along with the rest of the crew on the Buran.

Cunning Alias · 23-01-2018 03:26PM

First episode where it finally snapped for me and went from a disjointed mess to 'dumb but incredibly enjoyable'. It felt like I was watching a modern day Flash Gordon at times. Hope they stay in the evil universe for the rest of the run.

This was the first episode where I stopped thinking of this as Star Trek and it made it a lot more enjoyable.

Discovery 1x12 – "Vaulting Ambition" [** SPOILERS **]

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Discovery 1x12 – "Vaulting Ambition" [ SPOILERS ]