Discovery 1x12 – "Vaulting Ambition" [** SPOILERS **]

Spear

Agreed, I suspect he did die on the Buran. He wouldn't last long in the mirror universe.

Though that still leaves a question of how Mirror Lorca got across in the first place. It wasn't via the same method as the Defiant, The Terran Empire doesn't have the spore drive, so their ISS Discovery equally doesn't, and Stamets was on the ISS Charon. I would hope some of these questions will get answered.

Goodshape

Cunning Alias wrote: »

This was the first episode where I stopped thinking of this as Star Trek and it made it a lot more enjoyable.

TNG wasn't Star Trek because it didn't have Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, had a Klingon (if you can even call that mars-bar headed thing a Klingon!) on the bridge, and some old bald man for a captain. Pathetic.

DS9 wasn't Star Trek because Star Trek is always about exploration and this soap opera nonsense is on a star base. Laughable.

Voyager was Star Trek in name only. What's the point if you're going to set it so far away with totally new aliens?! What happened to everything we've established so far??! Ridicules. Should have just called it something else.

Enterprise didn't even use the name Star Trek at first and for good reason! Prequel nonsense.

None of the films, except maybe TMP, are real Star Trek. Vengeance stories and action set pieces. Where's the SCIENCE!?!?


Discovery certainly isn't Star Trek because if it was, it wouldn't be just like all the other Star Treks.

Vicxas

So, that was a hell of an Episode. 

I can see why some people hated it, but overall i really like where this is going. Its like Star Trek but with the Grittiness of BSG or the later parts of DS9

The_Valeyard

What a ship!

Is that like a Mass Effect citadel going on? Which buildings, lakes and greenery around the mini sun?

Evade

The_Valeyard wrote: »

What a ship!

Is that like a Mass Effect citadel going on? Which buildings, lakes and greenery around the mini sun?

One thing the shots of the Charon needed was one of the known size ships so we can get a really good idea of the size of the thing.

Evade

Goodshape wrote: »

None of the films, except maybe TMP, are real Star Trek.

But TMP had mars bar heads so it's not real Star Trek either.

ezra_

fxotoole wrote: »

Good spot.

I'm wondering where is Prime-Lorca? Likewise for Mirror-Tyler? I'd like to see them both make appearances.

Didn't mirror Tyler get killed by the guy torturing Lorca in the agoniser room?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

One thing the shots of the Charon needed was one of the known size ships so we can get a really good idea of the size of the thing.

We saw the shuttle craft dock with the Charon, so it seemed like it might have been about the size of a larger Constitution class vessel.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

We saw the shuttle craft dock with the Charon, so it seemed like it might have been about the size of a larger Constitution class vessel.

I think it's much bigger. Counting the rows of windows in the Valeyard's post it looks to me like the top section on its own is almost as tall as a Constitution class.

Does it remind anyone else of a D'deridex class warbird on steroids? Even the technology might be similar, being powered by a star instead of a small black hole.

corkie

Star Trek: Discovery Episode 12 Review - Vaulting Ambition

jasonb

So, am i right in thinking this about Voq...

Basically, they physically altered Voq by performing extensive surgery on him to make him look like Tyler, and 'put' Tyler's mind into him, leaving his own mind buried beneath. Is that right? In other words, the body is Voq's, just radically altered, and Tyler's body is basically dead, unless they've kept him in a cell somewhere?

Spear

jasonb wrote: »

So, am i right in thinking this about Voq...

Basically, they physically altered Voq by performing extensive surgery on him to make him look like Tyler, and 'put' Tyler's mind into him, leaving his own mind buried beneath. Is that right? In other words, the body is Voq's, just radically altered, and Tyler's body is basically dead, unless they've kept him in a cell somewhere?

That seems to be it. Tyler's memories were copied over, giving a surface personality that passes any checking. They're vague on how he passes the DNA test, but I presume grafted cloned muscle and organ mass. Which would explain the scarring around the bones they mentioned. But ultimately Voq in Tyler suit.

Evade

Spear wrote: »

There vague on how he passes the DNS test,

They mentioned in this episode that they changed his DNA to Tyler's.

Spear

Evade wrote: »

They mentioned in this episode that they changed his DNA to Tyler's.

I got that, but he'd need cells/blood to pass a test, hence the grafts of cloned tissue that would be needed.

Evade

Spear wrote: »

I got that, but he'd need cells/blood to pass a test, hence the grafts of cloned tissue that would be needed.

But if they changed his DNA his own cells would have Tyler's DNA.

The way I understand it is they made him physicaly resemble Tyler with those surgeries then teched the Voq DNA into Tyler's DNA. The Cardassians used to do something like that on DS9 and Voyager.

CramCycle

also if memory serves, the differences between races is miniscule compared to the similarities thanks to something that left a message in all the other races DNA and basically kickstarted all the races. I may have been crazy tired when that episode was on.

The point was, to reverse engineer into a human may not be terribly difficult without destroying the klingons mind. Replace bone marrow, replace the organs (bar the brain, a load of anti rejection drugs until it all takes.

Evade

CramCycle wrote: »

also if memory serves, the differences between races is miniscule compared to the similarities thanks to something that left a message in all the other races DNA and basically kickstarted all the races. I may have been crazy tired when that episode was on.

That's an accurate summary of that episode but minuscule is a stretch. It would still be about as hard if not harder than turning a human into another member of the ape family since the same pre-destined DNA thing applies to all lifeforms on those planets.

ads20101

Feck - brilliant ep

Damn annoyed that I didn't see the twist

It's not the ST of my youth but it has me converted. Can't wait for more eps

Drumpot

Really enjoying the show. Like Seamus said, I’m more interested in enjoying it then picking apart. Haven’t anticipated any twists and find the show more enjoyable for it. Hope this gets renewed, I love the universe and the more adult feel.

AMKC

Spear wrote: »

They were referred to as Lords of the Empire, with the survivor being a Lord Ealing. But in an empire like that they were always going to be little more than toadying sycophants, so they're plenty disposable. Lord Ealing appears to only have been left alive for the purpose of getting a mop and bucket.

There's a couple of small details people haven't commented on.

It had been implied before the Terran Empire had its roots in the Roman Empire, and the Empress's titles seem to lean into that.

Also they ate the Kelpian. It didn't really add anything to the story, it's just a nicely horrible detail.

Agreed very horrible. The face on Micheal when she realised it was on alien she was eating. If it was me I think I would have felt sick.

Drumpot wrote: »

Really enjoying the show. Like Seamus said, I’m more interested in enjoying it then picking apart. Haven’t anticipated any twists and find the show more enjoyable for it. Hope this gets renewed, I love the universe and the more adult feel.

It has been renewed already. They announced it a few months back.

https://www.space.com/38537-star-trek-discovery-renewed-season-2.html

Goodshape

Why didn't Lorca just say the sister's name when asked? Now that we know he is MU, he still seemed to be pretending to be prime universe Lorca pretending to be mirror universe Lorca.

Why not just be mirror universe Lorca? Burnham wasn't around to notice.

Was there a reason for that that I missed? Or just a narrative trick?

fritzelly

Maybe that's just the character he is, don't give the enemy the satisfaction of knowing they've broken you
Mirror universe adds another dimension to it but still the same thing

spookwoman

They love the number 312. Stamets Patient number 312132 There's Murasaki 312 was listed on an alternate universe yesterdays enterprise. Episode 132 of ds9 is a mirror universe one of Vedek Bareil Resurrection. There is also DS9 Past tense part 2 Season 3 episode 12. And then there is section 31 and discovery's number NCC-1031.
Forgot to add 132 the spore jump that sent them to the MU

silverharp

have they explained how "old" these parallel universes are? for it to "logically" work the universes would have had to split within everyone's lifetime or their histories were exactly the same up until some point in recent history

Evade

silverharp wrote: »

have they explained how "old" these parallel universes are? for it to "logically" work the universes would have had to split within everyone's lifetime or their histories were exactly the same up until some point in recent history

The split was at least 200 years ago, probably a lot more. The infinite multiverse does allow for very different but very similar situation it's just the chances of finding it are infinitesimally low. Let alone consistently finding it nine times, four of which were accidents.

Johnny Storm

Goodshape wrote: »

Why didn't Lorca just say the sister's name when asked? Now that we know he is MU, he still seemed to be pretending to be prime universe Lorca pretending to be mirror universe Lorca.

All part of his cunning plan to get himself released from the Agoniser booth....

Johnny Storm

Evade wrote: »

The split was at least 200 years ago, probably a lot more. The infinite multiverse does allow for very different but very similar situation it's just the chances of finding it are infinitesimally low. Let alone consistently finding it nine times, four of which were accidents.

Not an expert - and I really can hardly bring myself to say anything positive about so-called "Enterprise" :rolleyes: - but IIRC in the opening credits of the Enterprise episode that dealt with the Mirror Universe we see the Nazis winning WWII. It is implied that that is the branching point that leads to the Terran Empire.

Evade

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Not an expert - and I really can hardly bring myself to say anything positive about so-called "Enterprise" :rolleyes: - but IIRC in the opening credits of the Enterprise episode that dealt with the Mirror Universe we see the Nazis winning WWII. It is implied that that is the branching point that leads to the Terran Empire.

There's no explicit Nazis winning WWII scenes in the opening but there is an F-15 Eagle, a B1 Lancer, and a Saturn V all of which are post war American vehicles. The shot of the Terran Empire sword is even imposed over American WWIIish soldiers marching. Maybe the Terran Empire is the US taking that Roman influence they had in their early years way too far.

pixelburp

For comparison, here's the intro being talked about: don't think there's much to be taken from it beyond generic war imagery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfbsZRbwbJ4