Discovery 1x12 – "Vaulting Ambition" [** SPOILERS **]

spookwoman

Lots of questions answered.

Had a feeling there was a another reason why Lorca chose Burnham but I didn't expect that.

Tristram

Loved it. Another cracker. Really belting along now and I'm excited to see where it goes.

c.p.w.g.w

Great Episode, love how how different in tone this series is, compared to previous Trek series

corkie

Lorca?

Has the sensitivity to light by terrains ever been mentioned in other Mirror Universe episodes?

Hardcore Trekkies will be quick to point out that this light sensitivity thing is new to the canon and that no one in 1967’s “Mirror, Mirror,” seemed to be bothered by bright lights. Still, this retcon makes a lot of sense.

https://www.inverse.com/article/40376-star-trek-discovery-mirror-universe-terrans-humans-light-sensitivity

hal9550

9/10 Pretty Decent in my book

Light sensitivity - im fine with it i genuinely dont mind this slight retcon

So Questions answered but it just brings up new ones

Where is our Lorca? Will we get him back? I dont think this mirror lorca is actually 'bad' in the mirror sense of the word.. I have a feeling he actually wants to over through the RACIST/TERRAN-ONLY side of the empire, which would tend to explain the more multi-species empire in Mirror Mirror - Spock and Vulcans etc

How did he get over to Prime universe? Spores? Transporter? etc

Personally i would NOT trust the Emperor, and im shocked Burnham is going to give her the spore schematics - i would trust Lorca far more than Georgeau -

SO let the theorizing begin! And im curious to see how many people are PLAGUED by the retcon -

Starfleet Student

Wow that was a really great twist.
I did not see that coming at all.

ezra_

That was a great episode - how many are left?

Evade

Pretty good episode. So who fired on the rebel base in the last episode? I thought it might have been Georgiou on her ship but it apparently wasn't there.

Voq Ash is still dumb. They changed his genes and brain patterns but still had to do primitive, by comparison, surgery for the rest.

If mirror Stametts is on the Charon why did the USS Discovery switch places with the ISS Discovery as opposed to just appearing in the Mirror Universe?

So next series we'll have Captain Saru and First Officer Burnham unless Michael gets a taste for Kelpien.

Just as a thread question. Is there any need to spoiler text stuff from this episode? It makes it awkward to read.

ezra_

Evade wrote: »

Pretty good episode. So who fired on the rebel base in the last episode? I thought it might have been Georgiou on her ship but it apparently wasn't there.

Georgiou says in the episode that she fired on the rebels.

Evade

ezra_ wrote: »

Georgiou says in the episode that she fired on the rebels.

But how? The Charon wasn't there. She says she had to "dispatch them myself" so was there another ship or are there warp speed torpedoes or since she's a gold clad emperor of mankind did she just will them to be destroyed and the warp mycelial network obliged?

I did like the listing of the Empress' titles.

ezra_

Evade wrote: »

But how? The Charon wasn't there. She says she had to "dispatch them myself" so was there another ship or are there warp speed torpedoes or since she's a gold clad emperor of mankind did she just will them to be destroyed and the warp mycelial network obliged?

I did like the listing of the Empress' titles.

Wasn't her ship there? Why else was Burham taking a shuttle craft over to her, and not just go in the Shen Zou?

Fenster

Cracking episode. Discovery is really going down a weird and wild rabbit hole. The last scene between Hugh and Paul was beautiful.

Evade

ezra_ wrote: »

Wasn't her ship there? Why else was Burham taking a shuttle craft over to her, and not just go in the Shen Zou?

The shuttle went to warp and Burnham mentions something about the Charon's location being a secret. If the Charon was there they could have just transported over.

Why is the Empress' daughter commanding a ship that's about a century old? I thought nepotism would at least get her one of those fancy new Constitution classes.

Slydice

That was so good!

The shock ending! The feels! More Mirror Universe!

BKtje

I guess the Charon warped in and killed the rebels before leaving again so no one knew the location of the ship (or at least for long). The Charon didn't go very far which is why the shuttle only took a couple of minutes at warp 1.

Sometimes the easiest explanation and all that...

Evade

BKtje wrote: »

I guess the Charon warped in and killed the rebels before leaving again so no one knew the location of the ship (or at least for long). The Charon didn't go very far which is why the shuttle only took a couple of minutes at warp 1.

Sometimes the easiest explanation and all that...

Wouldn't it have made more sense to beam Burnham and Lorca on board the Charon and then warp away? The way you described has a greater chance of someone finding where the Charon is because the coordinates had to be transmitted and transferred to the shuttle so they could be intercepted or copied along the way.

Johnny Storm

Extra ganglia for all the mirror-Lorca deniers ........ :pac::pac::pac::pac:

Goodshape

That was really good!

Not totally thrilled that the Mirror-Lorca 'twist' came to pass. I guess it's seemed pretty inevitable for a while now if you've been paying attention (particularly to forums/reddit etc.) but along with Ash/Voq and just being in the Mirror Universe in general, it seems like maybe a twist too far.

It also undermines the interesting character that Lorca was, although it might be interesting now to go back and re-watch the series with the confirmed knowledge that he's not who he says he is.

And if Voq has now been 'killed', as it seems he might have been, then that whole thing seems a bit pointless altogether. But still to be determined where they go with that.


Having said all that, really enjoyed the episode!

Johnny Storm

That episode seemed incredibly short?

Goodshape

Johnny Storm wrote: »

That episode seemed incredibly short?

Yeah, 37 minutes :-/

khaldrogo

c.p.w.g.w wrote:

Great Episode, love how how different in tone this series is, compared to previous Trek series

Doesn't really feel like star trek imo. Take away the uniform and the prime directive and it could be a stand alone.

c.p.w.g.w

khaldrogo wrote: »

Doesn't really feel like star trek imo. Take away the uniform and the prime directive and it could be a stand alone.

Which I do enjoy, it's a different, darker star trek

The_Valeyard

excellent episode. Really enjoyed it. The Imperial palace, wow, what a ship!

And is Lorca beginning to show his true colours?

aw man you guys were right all along about lorca, someone pointed out the 'dim light of this world' last week and all
that was exciting!!!!!

fritzelly

Need to rewatch this episode

What did they do with Voq?

Stamets wakes up on the Charon but Tilly is there? Is that our Stamet?

fritzelly

fritzelly wrote: »

Need to rewatch this episode

What did they do with Voq?

Stamets wakes up on the Charon but Tilly is there? Is that our Stamet?

i think both stamets woke up on their respective ships. they showed alt stamets first then ours

The_Valeyard

bluewolf wrote: »

i think both stamets woke up on their respective ships. they showed alt stamets first then ours

Alt Stamets needs to report to The Emperor. Theres an MU invasion to prepare for.

CramCycle

Evade wrote: »

If mirror Stametts is on the Charon why did the USS Discovery switch places with the ISS Discovery as opposed to just appearing in the Mirror Universe?

We don't actually know this happened, mirror discovery could have been destroyed but taking that it was, it is possible that they are simply separate events. Mirror Stamets only knows of Stamets because they worked on the same ideas.

So next series we'll have Captain Saru and First Officer Burnham unless Michael gets a taste for Kelpien.

Or that Lorca, knowing that him and Burnham were working together, the original is still alive. This seems unlikely to me but that doesn't mean a first officer will hold Captains rank outside of battlefield promotion.

Just as a thread question. Is there any need to spoiler text stuff from this episode? It makes it awkward to read.

I could be wrong but I though the point of the episode specific threads was so we didn;t have to after release date, the general thread needs it but not this. I maybe wrong/

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Extra ganglia for all the mirror-Lorca deniers ........ :pac::pac::pac::pac:

I thought he was at first and then my mind changed as it felt either too obvious or too nonsensical. They played it well with him not saying her name. Happy to admit I was sort of surprised, not terribly but enjoyably, and it made sense.

Goodshape wrote: »

Not totally thrilled that the Mirror-Lorca 'twist' came to pass. I guess it's seemed pretty inevitable for a while now if you've been paying attention (particularly to forums/reddit etc.) but along with Ash/Voq and just being in the Mirror Universe in general, it seems like maybe a twist too far.

I think they left enough doubt in there that they could have gotten away with it either way if they wanted.

And if Voq has now been 'killed', as it seems he might have been, then that whole thing seems a bit pointless altogether. But still to be determined where they go with that.

Not convinced he has, as my understanding is that Tyler is Voq, Voq is not Tyler. I get the impression the med crew haven't a clue what is going on and they think that Tyler has had Voqs memories implanted on top of him. I fully suspect she has just pushed the memories back down, although could be wrong in the face of a mirror universe and religion being a crock of sh1t.

CramCycle

bluewolf wrote: »

i think both stamets woke up on their respective ships. they showed alt stamets first then ours

I made he mistake of presuming they were in alternate universes but when I look at their reactions (I wasn't really paying attention first time round), there is no flinching from either in regards location. They both woke up in their own bodies, as you said.

terryduff12

Great episode didn't see it coming, was hesitant about the parallel universe but it has tied in very well.

Evade

CramCycle wrote: »

We don't actually know this happened, mirror discovery could have been destroyed but taking that it was, it is possible that they are simply separate events. Mirror Stamets only knows of Stamets because they worked on the same ideas.

The ISS Discovery was at that battle that took place just before the USS Discovery crossed over wasn't it? The USS Discovery didn't detect any debris from Federation/Imperial ships (I'm assuming it would be similar) at the battle site so where is the ISS Discovery? It's possible it was destroyed on the way to the Prime Universe but it still begs the question why they appear to have switched when the ISS Discovery doesn't have a DASH drive.

CramCycle wrote: »

Or that Lorca, knowing that him and Burnham were working together, the original is still alive. This seems unlikely to me but that doesn't mean a first officer will hold Captains rank outside of battlefield promotion.

I'm thinking back to the initial description of the series that it will follow a first officer as the main character. We thought after Burnham's court martial that this premise was a bit of a red herring but it could come around again in series two. I think it's unlikely they'll demote or get rid of Saru so up is the only real way for him to go. It is (was?) a war after all captains could be in short supply and it's a TV series the actor probably has a contract so they'll have to keep him around. Jason Isaacs only signed on for one series didn't he?

fritzelly

bluewolf wrote: »

i think both stamets woke up on their respective ships. they showed alt stamets first then ours

Yep, you got it

The whole voq thing still not making sense to me

Anyone know the budget per episode? CGI and sets are top notch - Palace ship was a delight to see!

AtomicHorror

CramCycle wrote: »

Not convinced he has, as my understanding is that Tyler is Voq, Voq is not Tyler. I get the impression the med crew haven't a clue what is going on and they think that Tyler has had Voqs memories implanted on top of him. I fully suspect she has just pushed the memories back down, although could be wrong in the face of a mirror universe and religion being a crock of sh1t.

L'Rell thinks Voq is dead at least.

pixelburp

Well I hold my hands up, I insisted that Lorca couldn't be of the mirror universe, that it was a stupid idea. I was only half right :P I genuinely didn't think they'd go for this idea, that it'd undermine what had amounted to a complex, interesting take on Trek captaincy, but here we are.

I suppose it at least validates the notion that he's not a proper Trek captain - cos he isn't now, in the most literal sense (I wonder if we'll see a flashback episode of how this Lorca came to replace the real one. Maybe the Buran was destroyed to cover his tracks). I wonder, does this make Discoverys detractors feel better about the overall shape of the show, knowing a larger part of the tonal deviance was intentional? Am curious.

Again though, the mirror universe shenanigans have dominated the discussion, though I think we might be seeing the first steps in ensuring the Spore network fits into canon. Feels like alt Stamets may be responsible for actions that lead to the network dimishing, and if so would certainly drive the Federation to abandon the research, rather than risk destruction of the network.

I did have some faith the continuity would be restored and looks like Discovery has started that correction.

fritzelly

Just reading a little ol' theory on reddit and some things kinda fit in nicely but

Section 31 - ship registration, attitude of Lorca (and maybe someone else...)

fxotoole

Best episode so far. Good pacing and they’re really getting into the swing of things now. Nice theory confirmation but Lorca’s motivations for doing what he did are now weird and kinda creepy.

hal9550

I was wrong about lorca too - (although ye never know! lol)

As for the IMPERIAL FLAGSHIP

Powered by an artificially contained micro-star?? Pretty awesome!

feel like I should have seen that coming but didn't. they gave us enough to see it a mile off. Quality writing there.

Goodshape

Aw, I really wasn't surprised at all. Thought it was 50/50, will they / won't they... And they did. Not a suprise, just one of the two options available.

So far the only shocking event for me has been Culber's death.

I need to read less r/startrek on Reddit :-p

c.p.w.g.w

Goodshape wrote: »

Aw, I really wasn't surprised at all. Thought it was 50/50, will they / won't they... And they did. Not a suprise, just one of the two options available.

So far the only shocking event for me has been Culber's death.

I need to read less r/startrek on Reddit :-p

One of the problems with the internet...

When a show sets up a twist and does it properly they will always be someone who will theorize correctly. And if a show sets it up in a subtle manner its called out as a plot hole because it wasn't built up correctly...

I don't read a huge amount about my tv show online, i just came across a few threads here myself when looking for an netflix related issue.

BlitzKrieg

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

One of the problems with the internet...

When a show sets up a twist and does it properly they will always be someone who will theorize correctly. And if a show sets it up in a subtle manner its called out as a plot hole because it wasn't built up correctly...

I don't read a huge amount about my tv show online, i just came across a few threads here myself when looking for an netflix related issue.

My observation. It is worse for filmmakers and tv show runners to try and outplay theory people on reddit, frankly a lot of people get enjoyment out of it, I get it too on some topics, I love talking predictions for certain shows and films, but trying to out twist those guesses has landed a few shows with duds.

JJ Abrams is the best example both in terms of Star Trek (when he tried so so so hard to hide that he was doing Khan when he was obviously doing Khan) and Lost (when it felt like he spent multiple seasons trying to hide what people guessed halfway through the first season)


Better to take the J.K Rowling route and just let them at it and let people decide themselves if they want to read those theories or not. I like to read the ones that end up wrong in retrospective (Neville would have done it in 4 books!), I find it gives a good insight into what people prioritise in their entertainment.


On the episode itself, I wasnt a big fan of last week's episode and I actually hadnt read the star trek reddit much, so this week's twist genuinely did catch me by surprise and I liked it.

I was slightly annoyed at the mirror universe aspect as it felt like discovery doing a bit of what Enterprise did where it was throwing the towel in somewhat on its own thing and diverging directly into *things fans like* territory. Not saying In a mirror darkly was crap, just that it was an excellent 2 part detour away from anything related to enterprise and its success I feel directly influenced why they opted for a Next Generation tie in finale that was ****. Which let's be honest all other use of the mirror universe in the star trek series outside of the original series has been used for detours. Deep Space Nine may have got multiple episodes out of the mirror universe and had fun with it (especially Nana Visitor), but they were firmly detour episodes especially in the latter seasons.

I'm genuinely glad that what felt like for 2 episodes of fan nods (including Sarek with a Goatee) to hold us over while they sat up whatever main plot they intend to do with Tyler has turned out TO BE THE MAIN PLOT and not a detour.

AMKC

Wow so Lorca is from the Mirror Universe. Guess should have seen that coming fair play to the ones that did. I found the bit about Micheal betraying the Empress and the Empress about to kill her good but found Micheal getting out of it by telling her she was not actually from her universe as a lazy way out. I also thought it was a bit crazy that the Empress would just kill all her guards just like that surely if they were her top guard they would have been loyal to her. Did not think the device used while very effective was not very Star Trek. Now she has to go get more guards.
I found all the nonsense about the spores as just that nonsense. Really hope they get rid of that part of it.
Do think Micheal is crazy to think she can trust the Empress but maybe she will give her false or wrong information or old information on the spore drive if she does at all.
The episode was very short. Hope the rest are not like that too.

Evade

AMKC wrote: »

I also thought it was a bit crazy that the Empress would just kill all her guards just like that surely if they were her top guard they would have been loyal to her.

The two that brought Bunrham in were guards but I think the rest were supposed to be courtiers.

Spear

Evade wrote: »

The two that brought Bunrham in were guards but I think the rest were supposed to be courtiers.

They were referred to as Lords of the Empire, with the survivor being a Lord Ealing. But in an empire like that they were always going to be little more than toadying sycophants, so they're plenty disposable. Lord Ealing appears to only have been left alive for the purpose of getting a mop and bucket.

There's a couple of small details people haven't commented on.

It had been implied before the Terran Empire had its roots in the Roman Empire, and the Empress's titles seem to lean into that.

Also they ate the Kelpian. It didn't really add anything to the story, it's just a nicely horrible detail.

ezra_

I think also that the seeds for continuity have been sown in this episode.

There is no further mention of the spore network, because the spore network has been destroyed (and research classified, etc etc).
Somewhat pat, but it does solve timeline issues.

pixelburp

Yeah; I remarked to my OH that Burnham didn't know what she was picking from the Kelpians for. I presumed either death or reward, but the actual end-result was particularly horrible. Just when the Terran Empire couldn't get any nastier, they're eating the races they enslave. I've now truly graduated to the point where continuity be damned: I want to see that universe burn.

Someone on another site was speculating though: if the Mirror universe is indeed the reverse of all things, would the Borg exist there & what would they be like? Perhaps a benevolent hive mind, one that invites rather than enslaves, and still retains peoples' personalities despite joining the Collective? It'd be interesting to see.

So if Lorca is not of this universe, surely that's going to leave a gap in the Captain's chair: Saru has definitely stepped up, and his gambit with Tyler in the holding cell showed proper cunning and lateral thinking (I liked the little touch that even when giving orders in the sickbay, he said 'please' to the nurse )

Johnny Storm

AMKC wrote: »

... I also thought it was a bit crazy that the Empress would just kill all her guards just like that surely if they were her top guard they would have been loyal to her. Did not think the device used while very effective was not very Star Trek. Now she has to go get more guards.

Logical flaw with the whole MU idea, IMHO .....

I found all the nonsense about the spores as just that nonsense. Really hope they get rid of that part of it.

Totally agree

TheIrishGrover

That wasn't bad...... I think the double fake-out of Lorca was a bit silly. I would have preferred if Lorca was from our universe and just a bit edgier than what we were used to so far. Now we know he's going to go full-goatee and it will be silly. For me it was definitely the weakest episode so far.... And short.

seamus

Evade wrote: »

But how? The Charon wasn't there. She says she had to "dispatch them myself" so was there another ship or are there warp speed torpedoes or since she's a gold clad emperor of mankind did she just will them to be destroyed and the warp mycelial network obliged?

I did like the listing of the Empress' titles.

I was under the impression that it was the Defiant that had appeared and wiped out the rebels - the Shenzhou couldn't detect the ship. But maybe it was the Charon.

Spear wrote: »

It had been implied before the Terran Empire had its roots in the Roman Empire, and the Empress's titles seem to lean into that.

She also made mention of the Empire existing for "millennia", which basically confirms it.

Also they ate the Kelpian. It didn't really add anything to the story, it's just a nicely horrible detail.

I think it foreshadowed what happened at the dinner. It illustrated that Burnham still didn't "get" the Terran empire and thought she could save Saru by selecting him.
Likewise if she properly understood the Terrans, she would have been prepared for the dinner to be a trap.

I think to a certain extent the major twists have been cleared up. Now we just have 3 episodes of "how do they get out of this?". Tyler/Voq thing will probably be left to settle until next season and then become a big point again.

The resolution of the spore thing will see the technology shared with the emperor, but then Discovery will make one last jump home, where Stamets will merge with the spore network and make it permanently unusable.

Which would be a shame; I think the series would be legitimately weaker without Stamets and Lorca. Everyone else is too nice, you need two complete assholes to balance things out.

We saw a darker side to Saru in this too; his apparent nervousness makes his an uninspiring captain, but what he did with Tyler was pretty badass. If he does end up Captain, hopefully we see more of that coming out in him.

Johnny Storm

Did I see Security Chief Landry in the trailer for next week?
My personal belief is that Lorca and Landry both crossed over to our universe (somehow and probably accidentally) due to the disaster that destroyed the Buran (sp?)
So if Landry is in next weeks ep she is probably the version from our universe and she will no doubt provide lots of information including the location of the Lorca from our universe.

Also, does anyone really think that mirror-Burnham is actually dead? :rolleyes:

jasonb

AMKC wrote: »

I also thought it was a bit crazy that the Empress would just kill all her guards just like that surely if they were her top guard they would have been loyal to her. Did not think the device used while very effective was not very Star Trek. Now she has to go get more guards.

Earlier she'd told someone to assemble the Council for Michael's execution, so I assume that was the Council. And when Michael confirmed the existence of the MU, she didn't trust/want the Council to know (as she views the Federation as something that would give her subjects dangerous ideas about 'Freedom' and 'Equality') so she basically took out all the witnesses to Michael's information about the existence of the MU. Apart from the one person she trusted more than the others, or at least viewed him as less of a threat, and got him to clean up!

That's how I viewed it anyhow.