Aziz Ansari - sexual assault or unwarranted assault on reputation

goose2005 · 15-01-2018 01:22PM

women are socially conditioned to be polite and to prioritise men’s feelings above their own

lol, as if

bnt · 15-01-2018 01:37PM

Anyone here read The Handmaid's Tale, or at least seen the award-winning TV adaptation? It takes place in a fictional dystopia in which women are categorised in to classes and selectively protected according to their ability to bear children. The Handmaids are the most valuable for that reason, and thus the most protected ... and also, therefore, the most repressed, "for their own good". It's not simply a patriarchy, either: it's a matriarchy too, all for the good of society, and the men suffer in their own ways:

There is more than one kind of freedom, said Aunt Lydia. Freedom to and freedom from. In the days of anarchy, it was freedom to. Now you are being given freedom from. Don't underrate it

15-01-2018 01:43PM

goose2005 wrote: »

lol, as if

While I agree with you, where did you quote that from?

TerrorFirmer · 15-01-2018 01:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

While I agree with you, where did you quote that from?

Louise O' Neill said it on twitter.

FunLover18 · 15-01-2018 01:58PM

The problem here (and I say this as a man) is that some men are not aware of the power and influence their gender grants them as they've never been subject to it. Saying 'no' or stating that they would prefer red wine comes naturally because of this power and influence and the idea that someone might just drink the white wine or give off physical signs of discomfort rather than saying 'no/stop' out of some desire to be polite or avoid direct confrontation is foreign to them (I'm not saying this attitude is right or wrong, but it is an attitude and people, especially men, need to be concsious of it). If someone I don't like tries to engage me in a conversation I don't want, I'll be unresponsive, short, one word responses, any normal person would get the hint. But judging by the responses here, I would literally have to tell them to 'f*ck off', and maybe some people would see no problem with that and that's fine - but you have to understand that people (more importantly men and women) are different and approach social situations differently and a lot of that has to do with social perceptions of how men and women are "supposed" to behave.

Stonedpilot · 15-01-2018 02:03PM

Shes a vulcher plain and simple after the €€€€€. She was a willing participant.

Reminds me of the case with snooker player Quentin Hann. Accused of rape and in the trial he proved she was very willing indeed in fact she seduced him and was the aggressor.

Women like her need to be sued for defamation and slander. These evil women think nothing of destroying a mans career with lies and embellishments. They need to be held to account.

Aziz should sue the pants off her (no pun intended )

Bambi985 · 15-01-2018 02:06PM

She sounds young and not experienced/confident enough to assert her boundaries definitively and he sounds like a total horn-dog sleaze.

Honestly I'd say most women have had a date or an encounter like this - someone being too forceful and too pushy and jumping your boundaries so quickly that it can make your head spin. I can certainly remember instances of arriving back at someone's place after a date feeling like there was a growing attraction and I'd like to spend more time with them, but them coming on so strong and heavy-handed would immediately change my mind. It's just an immediate "oh god no, what is happening." It's an awkward place to be and you know full well that the finger would be pointed directly at you if anything untoward happens from there. "But why did you go back with him?" "Why didn't you scream NO! and run out the door the second he put his hands down your pants?"

You have to remember that the same folk who will condemn a woman for the above actions/inactions, will profess that women should not be stupid enough to walk home alone late at night or get tipsy with a man they've just met or have a one night stand with a random because men are unpredictable and there's lots of bad eggs out there and rape/murder happens. So maybe she didn't feel safe responding to his aggressive moves towards her with an equally aggressive "NO. FCUK OFF". She thought she was indicating discomfort by pulling back but it wasn't direct enough, and I'd put that down to her inability to navigate a tricky situation probably due to her age and who he was.

15-01-2018 02:12PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

]If someone I don't like tries to engage me in a conversation I don't want, I'll be unresponsive, short, one word responses, any normal person would get the hint. But judging by the responses here, I would literally have to tell them to 'f*ck off', and maybe some people would see no problem with that and that's fine -

Except you're inserting a different scenario entirely and assuming our responses to it. She met him well before the date, she accepted his interest, she engaged in flirting text messages for over a week, then arranged a date with him, and accepted going to his home at the end of the first date.

There is nothing about him being aggressive, or pushy when he approached her, nor do any of our remarks suggest that such behavior would be acceptable even if it had occurred that way.

but you have to understand that people (more importantly men and women) are different and approach social situations differently and a lot of that has to do with social perceptions of how men and women are "supposed" to behave.

And everyone has their own viewpoints about how someone is supposed to behave based on their upbringing, social conditioning, experience, etc.

But in any case, most of the comments in this thread are about communicating consent regarding sexual activities. Perhaps stick to the topic in hand?

Mokuba · 15-01-2018 02:12PM

The mental gymnastics involved in justifying her claim of this incident as sexual assault must be truly exhausting.

15-01-2018 02:23PM

Bambi985 wrote: »

She sounds young and not experienced/confident enough to assert her boundaries definitively and he sounds like a total horn-dog sleaze.

Honestly I'd say most women have had a date or an encounter like this - someone being too forceful and too pushy and jumping your boundaries so quickly that it can make your head spin. I can certainly remember instances of arriving back at someone's place after a date feeling like there was a growing attraction and I'd like to spend more time with them, but them coming on so strong and heavy-handed would immediately change my mind. It's just an immediate "oh god no, what is happening." It's an awkward place to be and you know full well that the finger would be pointed directly at you if anything untoward happens from there. "But why did you go back with him?" "Why didn't you scream NO! and run out the door the second he put his hands down your pants?"

You have to remember that the same folk who will condemn a woman for the above actions/inactions, will profess that women should not be stupid enough to walk home alone late at night or get tipsy with a man they've just met or have a one night stand with a random because men are unpredictable and there's lots of bad eggs out there and rape/murder happens. So maybe she didn't feel safe responding to his aggressive moves towards her with an equally aggressive "NO. FCUK OFF". She thought she was indicating discomfort by pulling back but it wasn't direct enough, and I'd put that down to her inability to navigate a tricky situation probably due to her age and who he was.

But she did eventually say no ...

kylith · 15-01-2018 02:30PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Seriously? That's warped. You also missed out on him performing oral sex on her...

Okay. Let me understand you. How does one gain consent?

You say "Would you like me to...?" especially if its your first sexual encounter with this person. As someone said upthread, some people who lack confidence will go along with things that make them uncomfortable because they want the other person to like them.

And, no, this will not mean the death of spontaneity or whatever other nonsense. Asking is not unsexy. The people saying it's going to be filling out forms in triplicate are talking out their arses and they know it.

Some men are awfully pushy. I went out with a guy once a couple of years ago. He'd travelled to meet me and since I though he was cute I said he could stay in my place. Anywho; it transpired that there was no chemistry there and I did not want to sleep with him so I told him he could stay in my spare room. I literally used the words 'I don't want to have sex with you', but he'd come a long way for the date and I didn't want to leave him with nowhere to stay as it was after midnight, and we got on well enough. We go back to my place, stick a film on, and he pulls The Naked Man when I go to the loo. Then he starts trying to undress me. I am clearly not into it and pushing his hands away. I send him to the spare room and I sleep with a weapon that night. Why didn't I kick him out? In retrospect I should have, but I was a bit drunk, didn't want to be a dick, and was a aware that if I tried to physically turf him out that the situation could turn very nasty for me.

kaymin · 15-01-2018 02:49PM

kylith wrote: »

You say "Would you like me to...?" especially if its your first sexual encounter with this person. As someone said upthread, some people who lack confidence will go along with things that make them uncomfortable because they want the other person to like them.

And, no, this will not mean the death of spontaneity or whatever other nonsense. Asking is not unsexy. The people saying it's going to be filling out forms in triplicate are talking out their arses and they know it.

Some men are awfully pushy. I went out with a guy once a couple of years ago. He'd travelled to meet me and since I though he was cute I said he could stay in my place. Anywho; it transpired that there was no chemistry there and I did not want to sleep with him so I told him he could stay in my spare room. I literally used the words 'I don't want to have sex with you', but he'd come a long way for the date and I didn't want to leave him with nowhere to stay as it was after midnight, and we got on well enough. We go back to my place, stick a film on, and he pulls The Naked Man when I go to the loo. Then he starts trying to undress me. I am clearly not into it and pushing his hands away. I send him to the spare room and I sleep with a weapon that night. Why didn't I kick him out? In retrospect I should have, but I was a bit drunk, didn't want to be a dick, and was a aware that if I tried to physically turf him out that the situation could turn very nasty for me.

I find it very naive that you would allow a stranger stay over in your house overnight especially when you have no interest in them. Inviting some-one back to their apartment / home is the ultimate lead-on. It is denying reality to think otherwise.

anewme · 15-01-2018 02:51PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I don't think this is sexual assault, I mean it's definitely not a nice experience, but sometimes dates are just sh1tty, and people are too pushy.

It sounds like the experience of a younger woman, who doesn't have the confidence to just be like "eh no pal I'm outta here". I can easily see being 22 and just kind of going along with stuff 'cos you want him to like you, and thinking if you can just slow it down you can get it back to being a nice flirty date, I did it myself.
Now that I'm older, I wouldn't be having any of it, I know my boundaries and when to call it, I'm not really concerned with seeming polite if I'm not into it.

And as an "older" older woman and long past even thinking about being polite, the wine in the house (do you want white or white) plus scoffing the dinner the scuttling to pay the bill after dinner to leg it back to the house.... would been a clear burning red flag to me that this guy is user and a pomposs asshat that I would have no interest in spending any time in his company and knowing myself now, I'd have probably stayed at the restaurant and finished the wine myself. Maybe even stayed on for another drink and enjoyed the ambiance of my own company.

15-01-2018 02:51PM

kylith wrote: »

You say "Would you like me to...?" especially if its your first sexual encounter with this person. As someone said upthread, some people who lack confidence will go along with things that make them uncomfortable because they want the other person to like them.

And, no, this will not mean the death of spontaneity or whatever other nonsense. Asking is not unsexy. The people saying it's going to be filling out forms in triplicate are talking out their arses and they know it.
.

Oh, I agree with you. I'm very much into being clear wanting such activities before having sex. Verbal Consent is important.

However, the people talking about contracts are referring to the withdrawal of consent which can apparently be done during or after sex has occurred. They're ensuring that the girl doesn't go home after the sexual experience, decide that she didn't want it, and then they could be done for some form of assault/rape.

neonsofa · 15-01-2018 02:51PM

kaymin wrote: »

I find it very naive that you would allow a stranger stay over in your house overnight especially when you have no interest in them. Inviting some-one back to their apartment / home is the ultimate lead-on. It is denying reality to think otherwise.

Not when it's followed with a clear warning of "I don't want to have sex with you".

LuckyLloyd · 15-01-2018 02:52PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

She never gave consent in the first place....going back to someones apartment is not consent....allowing a person to take off all your clothes and performing oral sex on him is not consent....how can she "withdraw consent" if she never gave it in the first place...

Most of us don't obtain formal consent, we proceed with due care observing how your partner is reacting to what is happening...ignoring how your partner is reacting does not resolve a person...

Yeah well, I'd say most people would reckon the other person is reacting positively to what is happening when they voluntarily engage in consensual oral sex like.

Maddening state of affairs.

Wibbs · 15-01-2018 02:56PM

kylith wrote: »

Some men are awfully pushy.

I agree 100% and would happily pillory them for it. But can we agree that some women can be awfully passive, even to the point of actively going along with such things? And personally I'd happily pillory them for that too. In this case she had a long list of points in that night where she could have made a choice, but she didn't, but when she finally expressed her apparent discomfort - after nakedness and oral sex going both ways - he immediately stopped. He misread signals, but she certainly did too, but only he'll get the bollocking for it in the media and trial by twitter.

Stonedpilot · 15-01-2018 02:56PM

kaymin wrote: »

I find it very naive that you would allow a stranger stay over in your house overnight especially when you have no interest in them. Inviting some-one back to their apartment / home is the ultimate lead-on. It is denying reality to think otherwise.

Shes confusing. Says hes "cute" polite way of saying sexually attractive. That is interest.

I mean in my experience when a woman thinks your cute it means she has an interest.

jiltloop · 15-01-2018 03:01PM

I get the impression that this girl was open to having sex with him before the night started, he of course was hoping for sex and probably thought it was pretty much a sure thing. He then acted like a complete dick and came on too strong for her.

She was probably (after reading excerpts from his book and reading about him online) expecting a gentle, tender and altogether more romantic encounter but gradually realized that in reality this was not the encounter he was going to provide. She probably stayed longer than she should have because of her expectations, she engaged more than she should have too.

This should just be a mistake that she learns from, I'm sure we all have had sexual encounters that didn't go as planned and may have followed through with them or left. That's a decision that was in her hands and she should be responsible for it.

He clearly was a fumbling dick who doesn't know how to treat a woman, but this wasn't a sexual assault.

kaymin · 15-01-2018 03:02PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Shes confusing. Says hes "cute" polite way of saying sexually attractive. That is interest.

I mean in my experience when a woman thinks your cute it means she has an interest.

And at what point did she say she has no interest - after him traipsing back with her to her house? After he takes the initiative back in the apartment? I just find it odd anyone would invite someone back, with drink taken, to their home when they have no interest in them. Drunk people aren't known for their chivalry so why put yourself in such a vulnerable position.

Wibbs · 15-01-2018 03:03PM

jiltloop wrote: »

He clearly was a fumbling dick who doesn't know how to treat a woman, but this wasn't a sexual assault.

THis pretty much. With his bit of fame he probably never had to learn much beyond showing up.

neonsofa · 15-01-2018 03:03PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Shes confusing. Says hes "cute" polite way of saying sexually attractive. That is interest.

I mean in my experience when a woman thinks your cute it means she has an interest.

It doesnt matter if she thought he was the sexiest man on earth,if she said to him outright "I don't want to have sex with you" then he needs to accept that. There's no confusion. She made it very simple to understand.

15-01-2018 03:06PM

I do find it interesting that since the woman in the article is 23 years old, she's automatically assumed to be innocent and inexperienced.

Her messages (verbal/nonverbal), and their failure to stop the encounter are excused due to her inexperience. However, his mistakes in not reading her body language or whatever those messages sent, are seen as creepy and extremely pushy.

Doesn't anyone see the double standards being encouraged here? We don't know the woman. We don't know anything about her past. And yet, a rather particular gender stereotype is being promoted for her, and another one for him.

15-01-2018 03:10PM

Wibbs wrote: »

THis pretty much. With his bit of fame he probably never had to learn much beyond showing up.

A two-year relationship with Courtney McBroom?

twill · 15-01-2018 03:13PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Not going to happen. Women tend to enjoy being pursued (generalisation but on the whole accurate in my experience).

The other side to this is that women are often viewed negatively by men if they approach, or assumptions are made about their intentions. I don't 'enjoy' the state of affairs in which the onus is on men, but there's no way I would be the initiator, purely for safety's sake.

Stonedpilot · 15-01-2018 03:15PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I do find it interesting that since the woman in the article is 23 years old, she's automatically assumed to be innocent and inexperienced.

Her messages (verbal/nonverbal), and their failure to stop the encounter are excused due to her inexperience. However, his mistakes in not reading her body language or whatever those messages sent, are seen as creepy and extremely pushy.

Doesn't anyone see the double standards being encouraged here? We don't know the woman. We don't know anything about her past. And yet, a rather particular gender stereotype is being promoted for her, and another one for him.

Talk alot of sense of Klaz. She is a poor doe eyed rabbit in the headlights and hes the rich successful predator such is the spin in the article and commentary on it.

Whats the say she wasn't a hard hearted calculating lusty vixen who spotted him and his €€€€ ten mile away?.

23 inexperienced?. Oh please.

There is 17 year old girls out there with more sexual experience than everyone on this thread put together..

The double standards are spectacular.

15-01-2018 03:17PM

twill wrote: »

The other side to this is that women are often viewed negatively by men if they approach, or assumptions are made about their intentions.

That sounds a lot like the comments about men approaching women...

givyjoe · 15-01-2018 03:19PM

twill wrote: »

The other side to this is that women are often viewed negatively by men if they approach, or assumptions are made about their intentions. I don't 'enjoy' the state of affairs in which the onus is on men, but there's no way I would be the initiator, purely for safety's sake.

Sorry, but that's another completely unjustified stereotype of men. Women are viewed negatively by men if they approach?! Nonsense. Maybe in older generations, definitely not now. Neither I nor anyone I know, makes assumptions about a woman's intention if they approach us, unless they make it blindingly obvious with their words.

twill · 15-01-2018 03:19PM

Deleted User wrote: »

That sounds a lot like the comments about men approaching women...

Sorry, could you be a bit more specific? I don't follow.

givyjoe wrote: »

Sorry, but that's another completely unjustified stereotype of men. Women are viewed negatively by men if they approach?! Nonsense. Maybe in older generations, definitely not now. Neither I nor anyone I know, makes assumptions about a woman's intention if they approach us, unless they make it blindingly obvious with their words.

Maybe your circle of friends don't, but in my experience and from what I've heard from others, it's still endemic in society.

kylith · 15-01-2018 03:21PM

kaymin wrote: »

I find it very naive that you would allow a stranger stay over in your house overnight especially when you have no interest in them. Inviting some-one back to their apartment / home is the ultimate lead-on. It is denying reality to think otherwise.

That's quite true, but do you not think that then outright saying "I don't want to have sex with you, you can sleep in the spare room" is then a blatant revocation of any prior implied sexual suggestion?

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh, I agree with you. I'm very much into being clear wanting such activities before having sex. Verbal Consent is important.

However, the people talking about contracts are referring to the withdrawal of consent which can apparently be done during or after sex has occurred. They're ensuring that the girl doesn't go home after the sexual experience, decide that she didn't want it, and then they could be done for some form of assault/rape.

I agree that after the fact is not a good time to decide that you did not want the encounter, unless you were in a situation where you were forced or could not consent - if you were drunk and were taken advantage of by someone who was not drunk, for instance.

What Ansari did was, I think, not acceptable. He repeatedly moved her hands to her groin after she moved them away. His celebrity status and the fact that he was significantly older than her may have influenced her, but IMO she should have left as soon as it went beyond her comfort zone. Possibly she feared that he would react badly to this, but there is no indication of that in what she wrote. From my perspective the alcohol, rushing through dinner, and then straight back to his place paints a pretty clear picture of a guy who was expecting to have sex with a hot 22 year old, whereas it seems she had built this up as a romantic date and potentially saw it as a burgeoning relationship, which could also explain why she stayed: she thought he actually liked her, would realise that she was uncomfortable, and would take a step back.

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree 100% and would happily pillory them for it. But can we agree that some women can be awfully passive, even to the point of actively going along with such things? And personally I'd happily pillory them for that too. In this case she had a long list of points in that night where she could have made a choice, but she didn't, but when she finally expressed her apparent discomfort - after nakedness and oral sex going both ways - he immediately stopped. He misread signals, but she certainly did too, but only he'll get the bollocking for it in the media and trial by twitter.

The thing about being overly passive is that there are 3 ways humans react to stress: fight, flight, and freeze. Some will thump a guy getting out of hand, some will get the hell out of there ASAP, and some will become passive and allow whatever is happening to happen so that they can get out the other side with as little harm as possible. Unfortunately the 'freeze' group can be the ones with the saddest history: fighting and escaping didn't work, so just go along with it.

In the Ansari situation I don't think it was assault; I think it was two people who had vastly different ideas about what was going to happen that night, both of whom thought their signals were clear. Clearer communication on both their parts could have stopped this before it started. It would probably have been a complete non-issue if he had just said 'Do you want to have sex'.

Aziz Ansari - sexual assault or unwarranted assault on reputation

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