Aziz Ansari - sexual assault or unwarranted assault on reputation

Silentcorner

Mokuba wrote: »

It must be amazing to live in a world where you freely make things up to suit your own narrative.

The world of publishing, online or otherwise is a highly litigious environment, no one would know that more than a group of editors....that is not a narrative, that is a fact...jesus...that would be common sense I would have thought!

Silentcorner

Graham wrote: »

You're basing this understanding on........

You got me...I'm making it up...publishers are allowed to publish whatever they want on whoever they want...

The fact that he was named is ominous in my opinion, that decision was not take lightly...

Graham

Silentcorner wrote: »

The world of publishing, online or otherwise is a highly litigious environment, no one would know that more than a group of editors....that is not a narrative, that is a fact...jesus...that would be common sense I would have thought!

No actually, it's really not. Press are reasonably well protected across the globe.

Let's remember it's the young woman making the accusations here, not the web site.

Silentcorner

Graham wrote: »

No actually, it's really not. Press are reasonably well protected across the globe.

Let's remember it's the young woman making the accusations here, not the web site.

Your kidding me...media outlets are forever getting sued...in this country media outlets won't name individual Business men unless they have to for fear of litigation....

The young one is making the accusations....the website is responsible for its content....just like all media outlets are...unless it is social media where it is a free for all...

Ralf and Florian

:rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/samrboland/status/952659027820937218

Graham

Silentcorner wrote: »

Your kidding me...media outlets are forever getting sued...in this country

accuser, accused and media in question are not in this country. That's probably where your confusion stems from.

getting back on topic

The part that really has me scratching my head is the womans belief that Aziz should have clearly picked up on her "clear non-verbal signals".

It's probably fair to suggest that giving someone a blowjob is a fairly clear non-verbal signal.

That's not to say any person shouldn't be able to stop sexual activity at any point but it's not unreasonable to suggest that 'withdrawal of consent' should be explicit and unambiguous, not implied/hinted.

Silentcorner

Graham wrote: »

accuser, accused and media in question are not in this country. That's probably where your confusion stems from.

getting back on topic

The part that really has me scratching my head is the womans belief that Aziz should have clearly picked up on her "clear non-verbal signals".

It's probably fair to suggest that giving someone a blowjob is a fairly clear non-verbal signal.

That's not to say any person shouldn't be able to stop sexual activity at any point but it's not unreasonable to suggest that 'withdrawal of consent' should be explicit and unambiguous, not implied/hinted.

Why did you misrepresent what I said?

I was giving an example of what it is like in this country so we can all relate to the point I was making....I never suggested they were all based in this county...why did you do that?

I think he behaved appallingly to her from the start...it escalated when they got back to the apartment...even if it is not a sexual assault this guy has very little self awareness and complete disregard for her...

According to the account

She was naked within 5 minutes of returning to the apartment
She had performed oral sex within ten minutes...(which she claims to have been uncomfortable with)

She had a duty of care to herself to get out of the situation at that point but she didn't...

After that first ten minutes she tried repeatedly to slow things down...

He was ignoring her signals and her wishes...

She said lets calm down an chill, or words to that effect...
She refused to grab his c##k...despite repeated attempts
She claims he followed her around the apartment for 30 mins...which implies she was moving away from him for 30 mins...
She refused to have sex with him...at this point he stopped...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault

"But you sucked my d##k ten minutes ago" does not give any man the right to subject a woman to that in my opinion...

Graham

Silentcorner wrote: »

She said lets calm down an chill, or words to that effect...
She refused to grab his c##k...despite repeated attempts
She claims he followed her around the apartment for 30 mins...which implies she was moving away from him for 30 mins...
She refused to have sex with him...at this point he stopped...

OK so even with your fairly slanted interpretation of the 'article' you're saying when she was clear and unambiguous he stopped?

Like I said:

It's not unreasonable to suggest that 'withdrawal of consent' should be explicit and unambiguous, not implied/hinted.

Silentcorner

Graham wrote: »

OK so even with your fairly slanted interpretation of the 'article' you're saying when she was clear and unambiguous he stopped?

Like I said:

It's not unreasonable to suggest that 'withdrawal of consent' should be explicit and unambiguous, not implied/hinted.

Could I not accuse you of having a slanted interpretation of the article, just because I am in the minority does not automatically mean I am wrong...or I alone have a slanted interpretation...

She never gave consent in the first place....going back to someones apartment is not consent....allowing a person to take off all your clothes and performing oral sex on him is not consent....how can she "withdraw consent" if she never gave it in the first place...

Most of us don't obtain formal consent, we proceed with due care observing how your partner is reacting to what is happening...ignoring how your partner is reacting does not resolve a person...

All I did, having read the account was put myself in his shoes, after ten minutes when he suggested grabbing a condom, she said "Whoa, Calm down, lets chill a bit"...if that happened to me, I would be very careful what my next move would be....neither of these two people were drunk by the way...alarm bells would be ringing....she is not moving at the speed I am....after that did he respect her boundaries, I do not think so....

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

She never gave consent in the first place....going back to someones apartment is not consent....allowing a person to take off all your clothes and performing oral sex on him is not consent....how can she "withdraw consent" if she never gave it in the first place...

Seriously? That's warped. You also missed out on him performing oral sex on her...

Okay. Let me understand you. How does one gain consent?

Will I Am Not

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Seriously? That's warped.

Okay. Let me understand you. How does one gain consent?

Every man should carry a scroll, a quill and a jar of ink.

Silentcorner

Deleted User wrote: »

Seriously? That's warped. You also missed out on him performing oral sex on her...

Okay. Let me understand you. How does one gain consent?

I left that part out because that wasn't necessarily voluntary on her part...performing oral sex on him was...

In my experience you pay a bit of attention to the body language of your partner...simple as that really...isn't that what we all do....

stunmer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1o_iY99eeA

Graham

Silentcorner wrote: »

In my experience you pay a bit of attention to the body language of your partner

Again, a blowjob is fairly unambiguous body language.

I never thought I'd have to explain this to anyone but anyway...

If you give somebody oral sex, there's a pretty good chance they are going to infer consent from the activity.

If you then decide to stop (as is your right at any point) then it is in the interest of both parties that you communicate that clearly/specifically/verbally.

Does that sound reasonable/sensible?

Wibbs

Silentcorner wrote: »

She never gave consent in the first place....going back to someones apartment is not consent....allowing a person to take off all your clothes and performing oral sex on him is not consent....how can she "withdraw consent" if she never gave it in the first place...

What the holy hell rabbit hole have we gone down now? A woman stripping, dropping and giving me a blow job is not consenting? Now before anyone bunches knickers here, it doesn't automatically mean sexual intercourse is to follow(though makes it more likely), but it's a pretty good indicator the night's going well.

Maybe we're at cross purposes as to how "consent" is defined. It seems to require some mind reading in your definition. And zero responsibility in the case of the woman to make her consent or not clear. She chose to go on the date. She chose to go back to his gaff. She chose to get naked. She chose to lick his boy bits. She chose to let him lick her girl bits. Every step of the way they were all her choices. She was not forced at any point. Unless you think this guy is some kind of mesmerist.

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

I didn't, I mentioned it in the part of my quote that you highlighted.

In my experience you pay a bit of attention to the body language of your partner...simple as that really...isn't that what we all do....

Nope, your quote only referred to her doing him... not him doing her. It's kinda difficult to do oral sex if the woman keeps her legs closed. She allowed him to do her, which does suggest consent. (although I do think she gave consent well before that... and didn't withdraw it)

And your body language perspective about consent... seems rather unreliable, and prone to misinterpretation. The woman in the article is giving off contradictory messages.

And in my experience, If a woman doesn't want to do something sexually, she'll say so. After all, the kissing, undressing, oral sex, are all pointers that the main event is coming, and she has plenty of opportunities to say stop. It's not like he tried to do anal without speaking to her about it.

suicide_circus

Wibbs wrote: »

What the holy hell rabbit hole have we gone down now? A woman stripping, dropping and giving me a blow job is not consenting? Now before anyone bunches knickers here, it doesn't automatically mean sexual intercourse is to follow(though makes it more likely), but it's a pretty good indicator the night's going well.

Maybe we're at cross purposes as to how "consent" is defined. It seems to require some mind reading in your definition. And zero responsibility in the case of the woman to make her consent or not clear. She chose to go on the date. She chose to go back to his gaff. She chose to get naked. She chose to lick his boy bits. She chose to let him lick her girl bits. Every step of the way they were all her choices. She was not forced at any point. Unless you think this guy is some kind of mesmerist.

But women have no control over their environment or agency over their actions. Always victims. Now this dosnt tally with any of the women I know in the real world but it seems to be the accepted narrative regarding any male/female intimate interaction that doesn't go perfectly.

kg703

I can't. This is a ridiculous story.

Wibbs

Graham wrote: »

Does that sound reasonable/sensible?

Ah here G, strong words there. Next you'll be talking about people taking responsibility for their choices. :eek:

Given we're ever more going full Victorian on this, may I suggest that since men are generally opportunistic non psychic sexual ogres, the beasts! and women are generally without agency, responsibility or a voice until well after the fact, the poor dears! that we should go the whole hog and bring back chaperones and be done with it.

JMNolan

I see Aziz Ansari has released a statement

The article wrote:

“In September of last year, I met a woman at a party. We exchanged numbers. We texted back and forth and eventually went on a date. We went out to dinner, and afterwards we ended up engaging in sexual activity, which by all indications was completely consensual,” Aziz wrote in a statement on Sunday (January 14).

“The next day, I got a text from her saying that although ‘it may have seemed okay,’ upon further reflection, she felt uncomfortable. It was true that everything did seem okay to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned. I took her words to heart and responded privately after taking the time to process what she had said. I continue to support the movement that is happening in our culture. It is necessary and long overdue.”

http://www.justjared.com/2018/01/14/aziz-ansari-responds-to-sexual-misconduct-allegation/

Wibbs

suicide_circus wrote: »

But women have no control over their environment or agency over their actions. Always victims.

Modern US "feminism". Women are always agentless victims and men are always to blame.

Now this dosnt tally with any of the women I know in the real world

Ditto.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Ah here G, strong words there. Next you'll be talking about people taking responsibility for their choices. :eek:

Given we're ever more going full Victorian on this, may I suggest that since men are generally opportunistic non psychic sexual ogres, the beasts! and women are generally without agency, responsibility or a voice until well after the fact, the poor dears! that we should go the whole hog and bring back chaperones and be done with it.

It's scary because this attitude simply encourages the old justifications for sexism and limiting the freedoms of women. For their own protection. Instead of men doing it (per feminist theory), it'll be women doing it to each other (which is likely how it started in the beginning anyway).

hobie21

I think the time has come for men to sit back, relax and let women make all the moves.

hobie21

hobie21 wrote: »

I think the time has come for men to sit back, relax and let women make all the moves.

I think the birth rate might drop even further in most countries.

I've rarely seen women approach a man in a social setting to make contact (I mean men who are far better looking than I am). I don't think most women will really want to experience the "putting themselves out there" and the rejections (regardless of the manner of the rejection) that tend to go with approaching people. "How dare he refuse me!" haha...

suicide_circus

hobie21 wrote: »

I think the time has come for men to sit back, relax and let women make all the moves.

Not going to happen. Women tend to enjoy being pursued (generalisation but on the whole accurate in my experience).

Omackeral

hobie21 wrote: »

I think the time has come for men to sit back, relax and let women make all the moves.

Just bring a contract to Coppers with you next time in case you pull.

RacoonQueen

On the fence for this one...doesn't sound like sexual assault from the article...does sound like he was very forceful and a bit sleazy. Wouldn't go back to a guys place after a first date myself, you're hardly going back for the chats and a cuppa, would think you're literally going with the same intentions as him? No? Gunna be taking the magic out of relationships if guys are going to have to explicitly ask permission rather than both of you just going with the flow...

Triceratops Ballet

I don't think this is sexual assault, I mean it's definitely not a nice experience, but sometimes dates are just sh1tty, and people are too pushy.

It sounds like the experience of a younger woman, who doesn't have the confidence to just be like "eh no pal I'm outta here". I can easily see being 22 and just kind of going along with stuff 'cos you want him to like you, and thinking if you can just slow it down you can get it back to being a nice flirty date, I did it myself.
Now that I'm older, I wouldn't be having any of it, I know my boundaries and when to call it, I'm not really concerned with seeming polite if I'm not into it.

RacoonQueen

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I don't think this is sexual assault, I mean it's definitely not a nice experience, but sometimes dates are just sh1tty, and people are too pushy.

It sounds like the experience of a younger woman, who doesn't have the confidence to just be like "eh no pal I'm outta here". I can easily see being 22 and just kind of going along with stuff 'cos you want him to like you, and thinking if you can just slow it down you can get it back to being a nice flirty date, I did it myself.
Now that I'm older, I wouldn't be having any of it, I know my boundaries and when to call it, I'm not really concerned with seeming polite if I'm not into it.

Yeah, sounds like it was just really unpleasant to me. From the article it sounds like he did stop when she asked him to stop...he started up again but if that was me I would actually verbally explain why I had stopped and what I didn't want to do at that stage and probably tell him why, so he knows.

Triceratops Ballet

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Yeah, sounds like it was just really unpleasant to me. From the article it sounds like he did stop when she asked him to stop...he started up again but if that was me I would actually verbally explain why I had stopped and what I didn't want to do at that stage and probably tell him why, so he knows.

exactly, because women tend to read non verbal cues better, I think especially when you're young you assume everyone does and can often think you're being really obvious, in her mind it was probably clear as day that she was having a crappy time, but men in general aren't as good at reading that, so you have to say it.