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Aziz Ansari - sexual assault or unwarranted assault on reputation

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    #32
    Skyfarm
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭Skyfarm


    Deleted User wrote: »
    She's entitled to shout it from the rooftops of she wants. It's not "his" private moment. For all that, the accusation isn't too bad, she doesn't seem to be crying rape or sexual assault. It's kinda his tough luck if a woman kisses and tells.

    I really hope that the 74 in your name doesn't relate to your year of birth, how and why do you think that the accusation isn't too bad?

    so its ok to destroy a person's life without any regard to the effects it has on people, you do realise that forever more this is out there?

    tough luck? christ man wake up


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    #33
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Personally, I expect to see a rise in relationships with very strongly worded contract agreements, and a decline of casual sexual encounters. I wonder will people start videoing their sexual encounters just to show there's no dodginess involved? (apart from their other reasons for recording the experience, that is)
    Its amazing how cyclical history and socities are isn't it? To paraphrase David Starkey "it seems to me that we are producing a tyrannous new morality that is every bit as oppressive as the old."


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    #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Skyfarm wrote: »
    I really hope that the 74 in your name doesn't relate to your year of birth, how and why do you think that the accusation isn't too bad?

    so its ok to destroy a person's life without any regard to the effects it has on people, you do realise that forever more this is out there?

    tough luck? christ man wake up

    If it's accurate, then she has every right to say it. Do you think she should be censored or gagged?

    Incidentally, he is equally entitled to respond, to deny, clarify aspects etc.


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    #35
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If it's accurate, then she has every right to say it. Do you think she should be censored or gagged?

    Incidentally, he is equally entitled to respond, to deny, clarify aspects etc.

    By all means she has every right to say it, but wheres her name? Should he not have the same right to anonymity as her until legal decisions re claims are made?


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    #36
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Ficheall wrote: »
    Which were...?

    Well I don't know about you, but when they began kissing for the first time, when he suggesting finding a condom, to which she "allegedly" responded with "Whoa, lets relax for a second, let's chill" .... would have been the first signal of discomfort...it also is an very odd thing to suggest after a first kiss!

    "He moved my hand to his d@@k at least 5-7 times"....the fact she didn't grab it the first time would be another signal...

    "It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a ****ing game.”....another signal...

    "Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”...another signal....

    “I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn’t interested. I don’t think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored.”....another signal...

    I really shouldn't have to go on...this sounds like a prolonged sexual assault...

    Its really sad that we can't all agree that his behaviour was outrageous...


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    #37
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    222233 wrote: »
    By all means she has every right to say it, but wheres her name? Should he not have the same right to anonymity as her until legal decisions re claims are made?

    But it's her article, she has the right to edit the detail as she sees fit including withholding her name.

    In his response, Ansari is entitled to give that detail.


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    #38
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But it's her article, she has the right to edit the detail as she sees fit including withholding her name.

    In his response, Ansari is entitled to give that detail.

    I don't believe that any names should be published in these cases, especially online until such time as the matter has been fully investigated and tried in an actual court, what's the purpose? The story could still be shared using other information eg. the person's career.


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    #39
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    222233 wrote: »
    I don't believe that any names should be published in these cases, especially online until such time as the matter has been fully investigated and tried in an actual court, what's the purpose? The story could still be shared using other information eg. the person's career.

    This is where the difficulty is...I'd imagine it would be extremely difficult to secure a conviction in this case...there would be no physical evidence...its one persons word against another (with a detailed examination of the content of those flirty texts and sadly her past)...

    We could all argue her right to anonymously accuse a celebrity of sexual assault online, that is a different argument...

    All we can do is take the account at face value until Ansari responds, with his account or legal proceedings...

    If we take the account at face value what we have read is an account of a prolonged sexual assault....surely we can all agree on that?


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    #40
    Oranage2
    Registered Users Posts: 11,131 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    Woman sounds cray cray.

    -Flirt all week via messages.

    -Goes on a date and talks throughout it.

    -Complains about the wine, the complains she didn't finish her glass.

    -Goes back to his apartment

    -kisses him and sucks him off, unhappily though (unbeknownst to the guy)

    What's a guy to do. I only assume filming every encounter will be the future, women cannot be trusted not to cry wolf and men have it all to lose.


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    #41
    Oranage2
    Registered Users Posts: 11,131 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    Triple post


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    #42
    Oranage2
    Registered Users Posts: 11,131 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    Triple post


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    #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    What's a guy to do. I only assume filming every encounter will be the future, women cannot be trusted not to cry wolf and men have it all to lose.

    Gonna need her consent to film anything... and when that consent is withdrawn because it's inconvenient for her?

    This whole area of consent, sexual encounters, etc needs to be investigated with definite guidelines as to what is legally allowed for your own protection (for all parties). At the moment, it's entirely too vague. Sure, the law lays out what is right/wrong, but too much is dependent on the perception of the Judge, Police etc.


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    #44
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Woman sounds cray cray.

    -Flirt all week via messages.

    -Goes on a date and talks throughout it.

    -Complains about the wine, the complains she didn't finish her glass.

    -Goes back to his apartment

    -kisses him and sucks him off, unhappily though (unbeknownst to the guy)

    What's a guy to do. I only assume filming every encounter will be the future, women cannot be trusted not to cry wolf and men have it all to lose.

    I think it is an honest account of a prolonged sexual assault...

    She doesn't hide the fact there were flirty text messages all week...we have no idea what the content and tone of these message were...this may be his get out of jail card if the tone is explicit, if it is banter its not looking good for him...

    She mentions the white wine issue because it would be normal to offer wine and then ask red or white? Or at least ask "is white ok?"...this was mentioned to illustrate that she had no control or choice for that matter...

    She spoke mostly because he only had one thing on his mind...

    The fact they left wine in the glass and bottle illustrates the hurried nature of the date...this is highly unusual on a first date to literally race the girl back to his apartment....

    She went back to his apartment, which is where it seems she completely lost control of events...

    I feel sorry for the woman, she was young, possibly starstruck and had difficulty computing what was happening to her....


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    #45
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    She went back to his apartment, which is where it seems she completely lost control of events...

    That's rubbish. She had control over the situation the whole way throughout. She just didn't exercise the element of control which meant her ending things and leaving.
    I feel sorry for the woman, she was young, possibly starstruck and had difficulty computing what was happening to her....

    She entered into an adult encounter. She went out with him, drank with him, accepted his invitation to his home and had sex with him.

    Like seriously... Everyone knows that you don't go back to someone's home on a first date, unless you expect something sexual related. Add to this, that she chose to go out with a "celeb".

    Now... the story she tells portrays him as an absolute dick. I wouldn't want anyone I know to be with him based on her account. But she could have left at any time. She could have refused his advances outright rather than mumbling or giving "subtle" signs.

    And honestly... Have your first date, your second, and third date... and then maybe go home with a guy after you know him a bit. Going to his home on the first date and not expecting anything to happen? Really? It's not the 1950s.


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    #46
    Oranage2
    Registered Users Posts: 11,131 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    I think it is an honest account of a prolonged sexual assault...

    She doesn't hide the fact there were flirty text messages all week...we have no idea what the content and tone of these message were...this may be his get out of jail card if the tone is explicit, if it is banter its not looking good for him...

    She mentions the white wine issue because it would be normal to offer wine and then ask red or white? Or at least ask "is white ok?"...this was mentioned to illustrate that she had no control or choice for that matter...

    She spoke mostly because he only had one thing on his mind...

    The fact they left wine in the glass and bottle illustrates the hurried nature of the date...this is highly unusual on a first date to literally race the girl back to his apartment....

    She went back to his apartment, which is where it seems she completely lost control of events...

    I feel sorry for the woman, she was young, possibly starstruck and had difficulty computing what was happening to her....

    I didn't read read it all for my first reply I didn't know there was more after the counter top, she wasn't having a good time but she did suck him off and kissed him back, naive and silly young woman, though she doesn't deserve to feel like that. Even though the guy was overly 'forward' it's hard to say he did much wrong, Learning experience for both of them.


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    #47
    Barncom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 11 ✭Barncom


    She isn't mature enough to be having relationships if she doesn't have the ability to decline sexual advances.


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    #48
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    Silentcorner wrote: »

    She mentions the white wine issue because it would be normal to offer wine and then ask red or white? Or at least ask "is white ok?"...this was mentioned to illustrate that she had no control or choice for that matter...

    .

    I don't drink red wine, if someone offers me red or hands me red, I ask have you any white or I say no thanks I don't drink red. Cause I'm an adult and I have control and choice over the type of wine I consume


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    #49
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Deleted User wrote: »
    That's rubbish. She had control over the situation the whole way throughout. She just didn't exercise the element of control which meant her ending things and leaving.



    She entered into an adult encounter. She went out with him, drank with him, accepted his invitation to his home and had sex with him.

    Like seriously... Everyone knows that you don't go back to someone's home on a first date, unless you expect something sexual related. Add to this, that she chose to go out with a "celeb".

    Now... the story she tells portrays him as an absolute dick. I wouldn't want anyone I know to be with him based on her account. But she could have left at any time. She could have refused his advances outright rather than mumbling or giving "subtle" signs.

    And honestly... Have your first date, your second, and third date... and then maybe go home with a guy after you know him a bit. Going to his home on the first date and not expecting anything to happen? Really? It's not the 1950s.

    That's actually frightening....

    Most women are raped by people known to them...by your logic, they all just failed to exercise their right to control the situation....

    Something sexual related might be kissing to one person, it could be full on sex to someone else, it is why we need the self awareness to know the difference...

    There was nothing subtle about her messages, unless you expect women to list the sexual activities they are comfortable with when they enter a mans apartment then it is up to BOTH parties to keep a watch on what your partner is comfortable with...


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    #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Most women are raped by people known to them...by your logic, they all just failed to exercise their right to control the situation....
    That's actually frightening....

    It's frightening that you feel to make the connection between this and that.

    And no... That's your logic. I was speaking about a date and sexual encounter where no force was involved, and she accepted his advances.

    Taking things out of context, perhaps?
    Something sexual related my be kissing to one person, it could be full on sex to someone else, it is why we need the self awareness to know the difference...

    Sexually related? We can only really go by the accepted perception of what sex entails... (perhaps the traditional viewpoint?) otherwise we have to accept that any contact physical or otherwise could be considered sexual by some.
    There was nothing subtle about her messages,

    "“Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”"

    Or she could have told him no, and that she wasn't interested in sex with him.
    unless you expect women to list the sexual activities they are comfortable with when they enter a mans apartment then it is up to BOTH parties to keep a watch on what your partner is comfortable with...

    True enough... So.. she should have told him she wasn't interested, and left when he failed to stop? Since he was a dick, and wasn't worthy of her involvement?


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    #51
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    neonsofa wrote: »
    I don't drink red wine, if someone offers me red or hands me red, I ask have you any white or I say no thanks I don't drink red. Cause I'm an adult and I have control and choice over the type of wine I consume

    Jesus I didn't think I'd have to explain this one...

    The wine or its colour isn't the point, the point was she wasn't given any choice...he was making incorrect assumptions from the start...he didn't give a f@@k what kind of wine she liked or even if she liked wine at all...first dates are highly nuanced...anybody with emotional intelligence would recognise that...

    The fact that she didn't bother to ask for red, or reject the white doesn't matter...

    She was a 23 year old woman in the apartment of a 34 year old World renowned comedian...if you can't relate to what that must of been like for her it might explain why you can't empathise with her...


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    #52
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Jesus I didn't think I'd have to explain this one...

    The wine or its colour isn't the point, the point was she wasn't given any choice...he was making incorrect assumptions from the start...he didn't give a f@@k what kind of wine she liked or even if she liked wine at all...first dates are highly nuanced...anybody with emotional intelligence would recognise that...

    The fact that she didn't bother to ask for red, or reject the white doesn't matter...

    She was a 23 year old woman in the apartment of a 34 year old World renowned comedian...if you can't relate to what that must of been like for her it might explain why you can't empathise with her...

    If someone makes incorrect assumptions that I want or don't want something, I tell them. Otherwise how are they to know? I don't sit and drink the red wine that I don't actually like, because then it will indicate to them that I enjoy red wine and they will continue to give me red wine.

    She was a 23 year old woman in that apartment by choice.


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    #53
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's frightening that you feel to make the connection between this and that.

    And no... That's your logic. I was speaking about a date and sexual encounter where no force was involved, and she accepted his advances.

    Taking things out of context, perhaps?



    Sexually related? We can only really go by the accepted perception of what sex entails... (perhaps the traditional viewpoint?) otherwise we have to accept that any contact physical or otherwise could be considered sexual by some.



    "“Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”"

    Or she could have told him no, and that she wasn't interested in sex with him.



    True enough... So.. she should have told him she wasn't interested, and left when he failed to stop? Since he was a dick, and wasn't worthy of her involvement?

    Well, the same applies to all women who are raped by people they know, perhaps it should be the first thing said to them when they report it...

    The ONLY thing she didn't do was say No...she did everything else...it seems she hasn't embellished the account or omitted her actions....

    She was a 23 year old woman out of her depth...he was a 34 year old famous comedian ....

    How can anyone not have any empathy for her...what does she stand to gain...fame? money?


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    #54
    Barncom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 11 ✭Barncom


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Jesus I didn't think I'd have to explain this one...

    The wine or its colour isn't the point, the point was she wasn't given any choice...he was making incorrect assumptions from the start...he didn't give a f@@k what kind of wine she liked or even if she liked wine at all...first dates are highly nuanced...anybody with emotional intelligence would recognise that...

    The fact that she didn't bother to ask for red, or reject the white doesn't matter...

    She was a 23 year old woman in the apartment of a 34 year old World renowned comedian...if you can't relate to what that must of been like for her it might explain why you can't empathise with her...

    So what if he didn't give a fukc what wine she likes, he is entitled to not give a fukc what wine she likes.


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    #55
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Well, the same applies to all women who are raped by people they know, perhaps it should be the first thing said to them when they report it...

    Except that she accepted all his advances and didn't refuse to have sex with him.
    She was a 23 year old woman out of her depth...he was a 34 year old famous comedian ....
    How can anyone not have any empathy for her...what does she stand to gain...fame? money?

    Yes, I have empathy for her. She made a mistake.

    As for what she stands to gain... that really depends on what kind of publicity this situation gets, and whether she seeks to profit from it.


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    #56
    NinetyTwoTeam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭NinetyTwoTeam


    What he did was gross and out of line, but I think women are naive if they think a famous guy isn't going to expect sex when you go to his apartment on a first date.

    That's a large part of why they become famous, they assume it will give them access to sex almost on demand. And if you've ever been at social events where a celebrity (even minor ones) is present, and see how women act around them, it's a lot like this story, they will try and find some way/any way of getting their attention, ignore their date, try and 'lock eyes' with them all night. All she admits to doing.

    That doesn't mean the woman is required to do anything or that the man shouldn't stop when old to, but it should be obvious that in this situation he is going to expect sex and you shouldn't go on the date if you are not expecting these advances.

    He and she knows darn well she wouldn't blatantly hit on him if he wasn't so famous - if you act like a starf#cker the star is going to expect to get it. Going back to any guys place is about as big a signal as you can give, it's unfortunate that coffee doesn't just mean coffee at the end of the night, but that's just the way it is. Same as how a woman asking 'what do you do?' on a date doesn't really mean 'im interested in your career' it means 'what kind of money are you on?'


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    #57
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Except that she accepted all his advances and didn't refuse to have sex with him.





    Yes, I have empathy for her. She made a mistake.

    As for what she stands to gain... that really depends on what kind of publicity this situation gets, and whether she seeks to profit from it.

    She actually did...

    When he mentioned he was going to look for a condom (after a minute or two of kissing) she said "Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill"...he had undressed himself and her at this point...

    She has done this anonymously.
    The publishers gave Ansari an opportunity to respond, he didn't...

    It doesn't take a genius to see what actually happened here

    She was going on a date with a well known celebrity, probably a little star struck
    He was going to f@@k a groupie

    @d
    We don't know how many of those groupies wanted to be f@@ked

    But I suppose, they were all asking for it...


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    #58
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    She actually did...

    When he mentioned he was going to look for a condom (after a minute or two of kissing) she said "Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill"...he had undressed himself and her at this point...

    "Let's relax for a sec, let's chill" does not mean i dont want to have sex with you. It could mean many different things. Even the phrase "Netflix and chill" alludes to having sex for many young people (I'm led to believe :pac:). It could mean, let's slow it down and ease into sex. It could very well mean nah I don't want to have sex at all.

    But if you don't want to have sex at all,the way to refuse is by explicitly saying so.


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    #59
    Ficheall
    Registered Users Posts: 9,018 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    The wine or its colour isn't the point, the point was she wasn't given any choice...he was making incorrect assumptions from the start...he didn't give a f@@k what kind of wine she liked or even if she liked wine at all...first dates are highly nuanced...anybody with emotional intelligence would recognise that...
    Some of his actions were questionable, but harping on about the wine selection as though he were the second coming of the Antichrist detracts from her story somewhat. They were having lobster, ffs - ordering a white wine can hardly be expected to be massively contentious.


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    #60
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Ficheall wrote: »
    Some of his actions were questionable, but harping on about the wine selection as though he were the second coming of the Antichrist detracts from her story somewhat. They were having lobster, ffs - ordering a white wine can hardly be expected to be massively contentious.


    Ah come here...

    I was responding to some other poster who alluded to its insignificance...

    Of course on its own it is insignificant...but when you consider all that came after it you get a little insight to the thought process of Ansari....


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    #61
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Deleted User wrote: »
    That's rubbish. She had control over the situation the whole way throughout. She just didn't exercise the element of control which meant her ending things and leaving.



    She entered into an adult encounter. She went out with him, drank with him, accepted his invitation to his home and had sex with him.

    Like seriously... Everyone knows that you don't go back to someone's home on a first date, unless you expect something sexual related. Add to this, that she chose to go out with a "celeb".

    Now... the story she tells portrays him as an absolute dick. I wouldn't want anyone I know to be with him based on her account. But she could have left at any time. She could have refused his advances outright rather than mumbling or giving "subtle" signs.

    And honestly... Have your first date, your second, and third date... and then maybe go home with a guy after you know him a bit. Going to his home on the first date and not expecting anything to happen? Really? It's not the 1950s.

    That's actually frightening....

    Most women are raped by people known to them...by your logic, they all just failed to exercise their right to control the situation....

    Something sexual related might be kissing to one person, it could be full on sex to someone else, it is why we need the self awareness to know the difference...

    There was nothing subtle about her messages, unless you expect women to list the sexual activities they are comfortable with when they enter a mans apartment then it is up to BOTH parties to keep a watch on what your partner is comfortable with...

    Let's assume she is telling the truth.

    All she had to say was "**** off. I'm going home" and leave. It's not rocket science. I bet if he was some normal Joe she would have no problem saying that.

    The guy was a dick of the highest order - no surprise as he is a male feminist, they are all perverts IMO - but she acted like a 6 year old child.


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