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Necrominus wrote: »I was trying so hard to get players for my game so the mechanics would work. I used the previous player list and PMed so many of those names, lots who didn't even dignify me with a response.
Tigger came to me and said he'd play but only under a pseudonym. I did say it was against boards rules but he told me not to worry about that side of things.
So I let it happen. I didn't do it maliciously, or to spoil anyone's fun but I wanted everyone to enjoy the game to it's full potential rather than reducing roles and devaluing the game (in my eyes)
I know it was wrong. And totally unfair. But it's being made out that I conspired to wreck my own game, and the aggressiveness of Mick in his questioning has me wondering what the point of it all is.
Anyways, TLDR. I'm sorry.
Thanks necro, I appreciate your honesty.
My initial thoughts are that there are two separate things here. Firstly the anon element. I think that was a mistake by you but, from modding the previous game I can understand why you might do it. Was it wrong yes, is it a mistake I could see anyone making, for well intentioned reasons, also yes. Hindsight is always 20:20 as they say.
The second, and I think more problematic bit, is that you advised tigger it was against boards rules and he told you not to worry about that aspect. It’s not your job as game mod to ensure players are following the boards t&c’s- basically if tigger says not to worry about this he’s giving you an implicit assurance that he as the account holder has already ensured he’s compliant. Frankly he’s put you in a pretty ****ty position here. I’m not going to keep on on this part because honestly, this is way beyond us as a community, it’s put Sully as a board mod in a difficult spot potentially. Long and short is Tigger, you’ve really ****ed up here.0 -
As an effective outsider here (my sum experience is a night 0 and a couple of read throughs) I cant say much from being in the game, but there is definitely a particular spirit of the game around here.
Yes, there is intentionally winding other posters up, sometimes brutally, and sometimes people do overstep the line. We need to combat the overstepping (IE personal attacks that are outside the game world) and a three strike system can work there, starting with the game mods reminding someone to wind their neck in, and progressing to forum sanctions if required.
A win it at all costs attitude though should be shown no tolerance, for the sake of the community. The game is better when everyone enjoys it, and if one person is ruining that enjoyment, we either fix it, or risk losing the community.
A discussion for Sully and the game mods needs to be on a solid rule set of what is a three strike offence, and what is a break it for everyone one, along with sanctions appropriate for each. Once the bones of that is in place the community can say yes/no/amend this, hopefully allowing everyone to buy in to the community spirit they’ve helped to create.0 -
I drove banjo madNot something to be proud of :rolleyes:
No offense, but that's for me to judge. After my ignominious exit, he did indeed drive me up the ****ing wall as I tried to apologise and he kept playing dumb making me state and restate what I'd done until I was able to start feeling better. I have no idea how he feels about me hanging him out to dry as an afterthought, but I'm coming to terms with it. And for that I thank him, even if he is an incredible prick inside the gameBanjo, the stuff you posted was bang out of order. I hate saying bevause you are a new player and active to boot but because you are new you will learn.
Punishment :
While I've made a personal choice to step away for a while, from a community point of view I don't know if a 1/2/3 match ban makes sense on a first offense. If you **** up in your first game and have to skip your potential second, will you be back? I say "telling off" on first offense if it's within the first 2 games or so, in the interest of growing the community. From the 3rd one on, the hooks are in, the necessary receptors on their brains are suitably inflamed and they'll come back when any ban is lifted.
Dealing with an arsehole like me :
You have limited options in-game, due to the nature of this running on boards. Game mods are not forum mods, so you can't - for example - edit posts or freeze access to the forum if someone is clearly going off the rails.
I would suggest the following :
All WW games are played with Anon accounts.
If you don't want an Anon game, declare which name goes with which anon account at the start.
If an anon account gets out of line, as Game Mod you have control of that account and can, for example, freeze it until after the next game event (pwd change), even commandeering it, then kick someone out of it and let a sub take over - it's not perfect, as game style will change and it puts pressure on subs to follow the game like they're playing it and adapt quickly (and except that they might be in and out quickly), but any alignment or balance is relatively unaffected compared to killing them off completely or allowing them to continue.
Rehabilitation :
Someone on the dead room (Pter?) suggested that an infractor should be brought into a future mod team to get a view of just how much work goes into one of these things. I lack the time to do this myself but it's a fantastic idea - might even be worth doing if there's a game on and someone expresses an interest - let them in behind the scenes early so they can see what goes on.0 -
All WW games are played with Anon accounts.
If you don't want an Anon game, declare which name goes with which anon account at the start.
Or people could just respect the rules and play by them, which most of us do.
Matching anon accounts with our real accounts would lead to unnecessary confusion and would take from the flow of the game.
Also there's plenty of us here who prefer playing with our own accounts as it's in general a more lighthearted fun game.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 49469
Banjo wrote:Punishment : While I've made a personal choice to step away for a while, from a community point of view I don't know if a 1/2/3 match ban makes sense on a first offense. If you **** up in your first game and have to skip your potential second, will you be back? I say "telling off" on first offense if it's within the first 2 games or so, in the interest of growing the community. From the 3rd one on, the hooks are in, the necessary receptors on their brains are suitably inflamed and they'll come back when any ban is lifted.
Ah Banjo PLEASE don't step away over this. I'm not even mad about it. You were playing super well up until that point and it was a lapse in judgement you'll learn from.
Everyone knows how it feels to be railroaded in a game and we all deal differently.
I for instance post until my thumbs bleed.
From your PMs to me afterwards you knew you made a mistake and as far as I'm concerned that's where it should end. Don't beat yourself up about it. The issue primarily came from my stupidity so I apologise for contributing to that as well.0 -
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Necrominus wrote: »Ah Banjo PLEASE don't step away over this. I'm not even mad about it. You were playing super well up until that point and it was a lapse in judgement you'll learn from.
Everyone knows how it feels to be railroaded in a game and we all deal differently.
I for instance post until my thumbs bleed.
From your PMs to me afterwards you knew you made a mistake and as far as I'm concerned that's where it should end. Don't beat yourself up about it. The issue primarily came from my stupidity so I apologise for contributing to that as well.
OK, I'll drop it after this, I promise.
Who's beating who's self up??? You ran a great game, and you kept it running in spite of no-shows and the odd selfish wanker trying to derail it for my own ends. Cop on, sit up straight and pat yourself on the back.
(Pats to the other Mods too, I'm sure but I wasn't in one of their rooms)
I'm not beating myself up any more, Barry saw to that. He's a lovely chap and his spelling is impeccable btw. He's a keeper! But I used him as a cheap means to a questionable end. If he hadn't been in the game I'd have gone straight for pasting from backroom and then making personal attacks on other players and the mod team, because I had convinced myself that my most viable move was to get removed from play so we effectively got a free 2nd lynch that day. It wasn't me seeing red, it wasn't a fit of pique or a sulk, it was a very poor calculation. I thought I was Napoleon Kasparov of the Alps and you would all bow down to my tactical genius. And that's why I need to step back a while and ensure I understand where the boundaries are. While I'm sorry I ****ed your game up and I'm sorry I nailed Barry to a very visible cross, I'm stepping away from WW for my own future benefit rather than out of contrition.
@TB - yeah, there are rules. Yeah, most people follow them. But the purpose of this discussion is surely to look at whether or not that's enough? Anyway, it was just a suggestion.
But as an aside, as a newish player, and certainly new to non-Anon games, I found sitting in a room full of people who know eachothers games very daunting. Who's he? Is he Derry? Wait, wasn't I Derry? At least if there's an element of confusion for all players it lowers the bar of entry for new blood, which I was told you're keen to get.
Also, as a newish player, the scorn being poured on one individual... well I can see why he might not want to play under his own name. It's been a very welcoming community so far from my point of view but I have to say it's not nice to see what happens if you get on the wrong side of it. Obviously, there's a lot of context that I'm blissfully ignorant of, so please bear than in mind before you roll this comment up, shove it up my hole and set fire to it. I can only comment subjectively.
One thing's for sure. I was promised this game would **** with my head and I would never look at my fellow boardsies in the same light again. It delivered!0 -
On deleting posts.
I have deleted a post in a werewolf game before.
The post was a silly mistake, anybody could have read into the post very quickly and figured out I was vanilla villager in another game on another forum. Another player in this game was also playing in that other game. I pressed post too soon, not rereading it properly, as soon as I seen it appear, I went, oh crap. Deleted the post, then wrote a pm, cc'ed to every mod of the game telling them that I deleted the post, and for the integrity of a different game, could not tell them the contents of said post, but that once the other game was over, sully would be able to disclose the contents of that post to them. I told them to punish me and i'd accept what ever punishment they gave me, i was sorry for posting the post in the first place, but I was definitely not sorry for deleting it. To me, having 30 people wake up in the morning and read that post was the worse of two evils and a call that i would make again. I was punished , in game, i served my punishment, then went on to enjoy the rest of the game, guilt free.
So, you are all saying that it was bad to delete the post, but do you know if any communication went on regarding that rule break?
If the mods made a decision during the game, take that as the right call.0 -
On deleting posts.
I have deleted a post in a werewolf game before.
The post was a silly mistake, anybody could have read into the post very quickly and figured out I was vanilla villager in another game on another forum. Another player in this game was also playing in that other game. I pressed post too soon, not rereading it properly, as soon as I seen it appear, I went, oh crap. Deleted the post, then wrote a pm, cc'ed to every mod of the game telling them that I deleted the post, and for the integrity of a different game, could not tell them the contents of said post, but that once the other game was over, sully would be able to disclose the contents of that post to them. I told them to punish me and i'd accept what ever punishment they gave me, i was sorry for posting the post in the first place, but I was definitely not sorry for deleting it. To me, having 30 people wake up in the morning and read that post was the worse of two evils and a call that i would make again. I was punished , in game, i served my punishment, then went on to enjoy the rest of the game, guilt free.
So, you are all saying that it was bad to delete the post, but do you know if any communication went on regarding that rule break?
If the mods made a decision during the game, take that as the right call.
Yeah agreed, in game breaches are actioned at the discretion of the game mod. However we're discussing a breach that is a a site rule breach which affected the game.
I don't think that should be at the discretion of game mods, others do, that's what we're talking about.
re deleting posts you owned up to the mods about deleting posts, you shouldn't have done it, you know that but you own up and accept it. Tigger had done it repeatedly over multiple games, going back over a year. (I modded with Uriel in Feb last year and he did it then too) so there is a cumulative effect here. Mods change every game and that may have contributed to him getting away with it so often, because each set of mods think about it, issue a warning and we move on, but at some point we have to realise that by giving it a pass each time, we're kind of permitting this type of rule break to occur and we have to decide if that's ok.0 -
Triceratops Ballet wrote: »Yeah agreed, in game breaches are actioned at the discretion of the game mod. However we're discussing a breach that is a a site rule breach which affected the game.
I don't think that should be at the discretion of game mods, others do, that's what we're talking about.
re deleting posts you owned up to the mods about deleting posts, you shouldn't have done it, you know that but you own up and accept it. Tigger had done it repeatedly over multiple games, going back over a year. (I modded with Uriel in Feb last year and he did it then too) so there is a cumulative effect here. Mods change every game and that may have contributed to him getting away with it so often, because each set of mods think about it, issue a warning and we move on, but at some point we have to realise that by giving it a pass each time, we're kind of permitting this type of rule break to occur and we have to decide if that's ok.
Leave the site breaches to the site admins.
Why have you suddenly become a back seat site admin?0 -
Leave the site breaches to the site admins.
Why have you suddenly become a back seat site admin?
Site admins are dealing with site breaches.
Show me where I have made any comment about what actions the site mods should take?
Sully set up this thread for us to discuss what happened in game, I'm entitled to contribute as much as anyone.0 -
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Triceratops Ballet wrote: »Site admins are dealing with site breaches.
Show me where I have made any comment about what actions the site mods should take?
Sully set up this thread for us to discuss what happened in game, I'm entitled to contribute as much as anyone.Triceratops Ballet wrote: »Yeah agreed, in game breaches are actioned at the discretion of the game mod. However we're discussing a breach that is a a site rule breach which affected the game.
I don't think that should be at the discretion of game mods, others do, that's what we're talking about.
re deleting posts you owned up to the mods about deleting posts, you shouldn't have done it, you know that but you own up and accept it. Tigger had done it repeatedly over multiple games, going back over a year. (I modded with Uriel in Feb last year and he did it then too) so there is a cumulative effect here. Mods change every game and that may have contributed to him getting away with it so often, because each set of mods think about it, issue a warning and we move on, but at some point we have to realise that by giving it a pass each time, we're kind of permitting this type of rule break to occur and we have to decide if that's ok.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 49469
Let's not all tear each other to shreds folks at least. I presume most of of us are looking forward to the next game, come what may from these discussions.
I accept what I did was wrong, and if sully feels it's actionable then I'll accept my punishment and move on. I'll be taking a time out from the next game anyways as I need to take a step back for a little while.0 -
Triceratops Ballet wrote: »quoted it for truth,lol. Is that not what we're discussing here? it is, so yeah it's the truth.
I see nothing in that where I'm saying what the site mods should do?
Yeah, I learn't that one during this game, so, had to use it instead of just a dot.
If a site rule was broken, then let the site admins or site mods deal with that, all we need to do in future is add a rule that say, no multiple accounts, done. If people were ignorant to that site rule beforehand, then they can plead their case with people that matter about that call. You and I should not be party to that tribunal.
Re-reg is not against site policy, so, i could close my account today, re-reg as DestinyWeight4No1, sign up to the next game, and that is perfectly acceptable, by our current rules and by the site rules!0 -
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On re-regging. I did it not long before playing WW. I didn't like my old account. I had permission to do it though. I don't use the other account though and it was only used in the days when the poker forum was still on Boards.
I feel bad for Necro and I understand where he is coming from. You don't think it will do any harm, but it does and he knows that now. He shouldn't be punished. A slap on the wrist maybe just!
He was asked to do this, he shouldn't have. BUT if Tigger had only just used the anon account and not acted like his cnutish self then we wouldn't have guessed. But to me it was all done brazenly. Just too full of his own self importance. It is such a shame as he can be valuable to a game. Although his tendency to point out good roles is bad too lol. He makes a great seer! (Not as good as our SM obvs ) But the blurting out just ruins it for him, and us. Which really is a crying shame.
@Banjo
Yes, it was a dickish move, but when frustrated we don't think straight. Don't leave over the head of it. I did silly things in my first game, swore I would never be back and secretly modded the next game lol.
Also, when I played the game over on IPB, Tigger broke rules by discussing the game over here! so he even tried to break one in another forum FFS. It wont end. It is still a shame it has come to this.
BUT. The game I proposed to Mod with the help of Mick and whoever else was
FRIENDS
Pretty ironic isn't it:D
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I understand that it's too late at this stage but maybe Tig doesn't deserve to have the arse ripped out of him for Barry's prickishness, we don't know it wasn't part of his early days "I'm not Tigs" act.
The double account was a underhanded but there's nothing to stop any of us closing our accounts and signing up for each game under new names, so strictly from a game theory point of view I don't have any major issues with what Tigs has done here.
Giving him the benefit of the doubt though.
I would be of the opinion that a strike system might be an idea, similar to how boards operates. Don't be a dick, respect other members and if past conduct means that you're a headache in general, feck the strikes, go away, we don't want you here.
I think it was Petr who said it, but we do need to establish some ground rules for new players to know what's okay and what's pushing the limit.0 -
Digital Solitude wrote: »
Giving him the benefit of the doubt though.
.
I think one of the sticking points is that he was given that a good few times in relation to past games.0 -
I think one of the sticking points is that he was given that a good few times in relation to past games.
did he not plead guilty, ask for sentencing and latest i heard, received a ban.
If this is a complain about tigger thread, i'm out!... and as a community/group make a set of guidelines for games going forward.
Whatever about over on COP - that’s fair game - but here, on boards, there are boards rules that I have to adhere to.
And forgetting about boards rules - simple game rules and everyone agreeing to be on the same page in terms of what is expected of everybody.
Discuss.
I thought this was a discussion about how to make it better for future games.
Can you put your unbiased head-caps back on please?0 -
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did he not plead guilty, ask for sentencing and latest i heard, received a ban.
If this is a complain about tigger thread, i'm out!
I thought this was a discussion about how to make it better for future games.
Can you put your unbiased head-caps back on please?
How to make it better
Step 1) Ban Tigs, the centre of almost every controversy we've had
Step 2) Establish some hard ground rules to stop players attempting what Banjo attempted
Step 3) Put a system in place where players know the repercussions of skirting rules, disrespecting mods and upsetting games.
If you've anything to add to step 2 or 3, now's the time, I don't recall anything from you there yet0 -
Step 2) What banjo did was purposely break the rules, he said so in his post. "I'm going to do whatever i can to get modkilled". It was in the rules "that he was in it to win it", and he went to extremes to follow that rule.
There needs to be a hierarchy to the rules, Rule 1 is most important, dont break this rule ever. rule 2, follow this rule as best you can unless it break any rule above this 1, etc. etc.
Step 3) there is such a system, cards and modkills. you want more than that? and bans as evidenced by step 10 -
Step 2) What banjo did was purposely break the rules, he said so in his post. "I'm going to do whatever i can to get modkilled". It was in the rules "that he was in it to win it", and he went to extremes to follow that rule.
There needs to be a hierarchy to the rules, Rule 1 is most important, dont break this rule ever. rule 2, follow this rule as best you can unless it break any rule above this 1, etc. etc.
Step 3) there is such a system, cards and modkills. you want more than that?
On Step 3, While cards and modkills are good for the game, what happens when a player is getting repeated cards or modkills over say 3 or more games.0 -
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Step 2) What banjo did was purposely break the rules, he said so in his post. "I'm going to do whatever i can to get modkilled". It was in the rules "that he was in it to win it", and he went to extremes to follow that rule.
There needs to be a hierarchy to the rules, Rule 1 is most important, dont break this rule ever. rule 2, follow this rule as best you can unless it break any rule above this 1, etc. etc.
Play in the best interest of your role while obeying the rules. Not pick and chose what rules are important.
The rules aren't written for lolsStep 3) there is such a system, cards and modkills. you want more than that? and bans as evidenced by step 1
One of our biggest problems is that it's not used, we're the kings and queens of 2nd chances round here and I think we need to be firmer. I don't even know if it's the game mod or Sully that proposes carding someone when a game ends, who makes that decision?
You're right when you say we've never done it, we haven't but we probably should have.0 -
Digital Solitude wrote: »How to make it better
Step 1) Ban Tigs, the centre of almost every controversy we've had
Step 2) Establish some hard ground rules to stop players attempting what Banjo attempted
Step 3) Put a system in place where players know the repercussions of skirting rules, disrespecting mods and upsetting games.
If you've anything to add to step 2 or 3, now's the time, I don't recall anything from you there yet
I missed this game and I'm only in the community a few months. Still though, I really like the community and when I'm playing WW on Boards, nothing else matters really.
What that in mind, I want to be clear here on what happened to this game. I've read this thread and referenced it with the game thread. I can see what Tigger did, but can anyone briefly sum-up for me what Banjo did?
I don't want to know so that I can pass judgement or anything, just make sure that I don't do the same in a future game myself.
Thanks.0 -
Okay, just checked the disney rules. The only mention of cards is for editing.
3. No editing: DO NOT EVER EDIT A POST. IF YOU HIT THE POST REPLY BUTTON THEN LIVE WITH IT. YELLOW CARDS AND RED CARDS WILL BE HANDED OUT TO PLAYERS WHO EDIT POSTS
What are the sanctions for cards?
yellow card sanctions are that you have to say something silly on game thread?
how do you distinguish between getting a yellow card or a red card.
Is making tiny ninja spelling corrections a yellow card offence?
is deleting a post a yellow card offence?
is removing incriminating evidence from a post not worthy of a stiffer penalty than just a ninja spell correct?
what is the punishment for thanking posts from dead room?
what is the punishment for unthanking posts?
what is the punishment for not playing in the interest of your player or team and who is the judge, jury, and executioner of these debatable actions?
should there be a seperate thread to keep record of these cards? how many games before cards disappear from your record?0 -
Few simple things
No poster should leave the game over this except 1. The other posters leaving even on a temp basis would be a big loss to everyone else in the community.
Tigger reminds me of 1 poster in particular from my time modding. All the time breaking what is both the most important rule and the hardest one to moderate... don't be a d!ck. As said that can be hard to moderate and as a result of being a fair mod and affording them the same opportunity you'd like to other they skirt by but... He has broken several game rules too as well as a boards wide rule. Personally I would remove him permanently but that is up to you
that said as much as people have brought up other genuine noteworthy things I think his removal would result in far less WW issues given what ive read (This was only my 4th game but I did feel in any game he made it revolve around him in a negative way) and honestly feel it should be highlighted that despite this issue the game seems like it was a rousing success thoroughly enjoyed by everyone involved. Remove the bad egg and lets have more like that please0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »I missed this game and I'm only in the community a few months. Still though, I really like the community and when I'm playing WW on Boards, nothing else matters really.
What that in mind, I want to be clear here on what happened to this game. I've read this thread and referenced it with the game thread. I can see what Tigger did, but can anyone briefly sum-up for me what Banjo did?
I don't want to know so that I can pass judgement or anything, just make sure that I don't do the same in a future game myself.
Thanks.
I deleted the offending posts and suspended posting to the thread, so it's not there any more apart from quotes.0 -
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Okay, just checked the disney rules. The only mention of cards is for editing.
3. No editing: DO NOT EVER EDIT A POST. IF YOU HIT THE POST REPLY BUTTON THEN LIVE WITH IT. YELLOW CARDS AND RED CARDS WILL BE HANDED OUT TO PLAYERS WHO EDIT POSTS
What are the sanctions for cards?
yellow card sanctions are that you have to say something silly on game thread?
how do you distinguish between getting a yellow card or a red card.
Is making tiny ninja spelling corrections a yellow card offence?
is deleting a post a yellow card offence?
is removing incriminating evidence from a post not worthy of a stiffer penalty than just a ninja spell correct?
what is the punishment for thanking posts from dead room?
what is the punishment for unthanking posts?
what is the punishment for not playing in the interest of your player or team and who is the judge, jury, and executioner of these debatable actions?
should there be a seperate thread to keep record of these cards? how many games before cards disappear from your record?
What do you think should happen?0
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