Kids. Yes or no ?

draiochtanois · 09-01-2018 1:13pm

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seamus · 09-01-2018 1:14pm

draiochtanois wrote: »

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I love the article's title "Steve Jobs Was a Low-Tech Parent", as if that's supposed to make you think about whether we should aspire to it.

Steve Jobs also believed that he could cure cancer by eating certain foods. So it's pretty clear that he was a bit of a whack job, and while arguably a great salesman, showman and leader, that doesn't mean his example of parenting has any merit whatsoever.

Permabear · 09-01-2018 1:15pm

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KERSPLAT! · 09-01-2018 1:17pm

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Absolutely. I actually purchased a tablet my my son for educational and entertainment reasons but after further thought and discussion decided it was a really bad idea. There is a balance that can be struck between unrestricted and no access.

mariaalice · 09-01-2018 1:24pm

Interesting point talking to a primary school teacher over Christmas and they are restrictive enough about technology with their child because of working with children daily they see the difficulties.

There has to be a happy medium.

Pac1Man · 09-01-2018 1:32pm

Ah let them have their cat memes.

Thich Nhat Hanh · 09-01-2018 1:47pm

I can tell you that there would have been an ice cubes chance in hell of my parents stopping me from having a phone in some capacity as a teenager, not that mobiles existed then really, I think you’re naive to think you can stop them, so good luck with that Permabear

_Roz_ · 09-01-2018 1:57pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

How does seeing other people bring in their kids amount to conscious social exclusion?

Especially if you don't want kids.

When I was younger and didn't want kids, they might as well have been bringing in new hoovers, for all I cared.

I could see why it might be hurtful for people (and my heart goes out to them) that want kids and can't have them, but that's life. People can't hide their kids away as not to offend or 'exclude' others

Not bringing them in to work (though I'm a deer in headlights when they do), and it's not conscious social exclusion, I said 'there's almost a form of'. I meant the culture fostered by the common age/experience range of people means a very common topic is kids, raising kids, having kids, lots of jokes revolve around kids, it's very common ground and it's something I can't relate to at all. Not that that's their problem, they're lovely people. I meant purely from the perspective of someone who doesn't want kids, it can be difficult relating in a world where it's almost a given that you will have or want them.

andekwarhola · 09-01-2018 1:57pm

I think you're better allowing regular, controlled home access to devices and drumming it into them about privacy and sensible Internet behaviour.

Our kids have tablets but access time is limited (only we know the access pin) and we have pin controlled whitelist software with only certain sites, apps and games enabled but they'll probably be able to get round that soon enough.

They both play team sports and only really want to hog them in winter, prefer playing out in spring and summer.

A lot of my kids' friends have tablets and even one has a smartphone (at 8 or 9 years old, wtf?!) and are allowed online. The one with the smartphone asked me for our WIFI password before(?!).

In light of all that, there's no way you can fully monitor them, especially as teenagers. You may as well demystify it now and not make it forbidden fruit but teach them how to browse and use the net safely.

_Roz_ · 09-01-2018 1:58pm

draiochtanois wrote: »

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I also do have to agree with this. I have zero interest in your child, and if you feel that is having an effect on our friendship, I'm no more obliged to feign interest than you are to hide your child away.

namloc1980 · 09-01-2018 2:17pm

_Roz_ wrote: »

I also do have to agree with this. I have zero interest in your child, and if you feel that is having an effect on our friendship, I'm no more obliged to feign interest than you are to hide your child away.

How can they be your friend if you have zero interest in what is a significant part of their life? I think your friend would be better off without "friends" like you.

_Roz_ · 09-01-2018 2:21pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

How can they be your friend if you have zero interest in what is a significant part of their life? I think your friend would be better off without "friends" like you.

Because up until they had the kid, we had everything in common? How can they be my friend if they don't understand my aversion to any involvement with children? It works both ways, and they're no more entitled to special treatment because of their choices than mine.

Also, you realise this friend is theoretical, right? None of my friends have kids, none of them want them any time soon, and all of my friends would understand my difficulty around their children, because they're my friends. :rolleyes:

Plus, as mentioned earlier in this thread, I do make an effort when absolutely necessary e.g. my little cousin who thinks I'm awesome. But I would also make it clear that I'm not suddenly going to love babies just coz they're related to me or someone I love.

sbsquarepants · 09-01-2018 2:24pm

bnt wrote: »

Yeah, and paying Manhattan-level rents. You'd have no money left for such luxuries as food. :rolleyes:.

People in manhattan eat food!

bnt wrote: »

Just because we could survive with more people on the planet, it doesn't mean we should. What kind of quality of life do we want for future generations? We already have far more people on the planet than it can currently support naturally, and the #1 reason more people aren't starving is because of artificial fertiliser, which is only possible because of cheap natural gae extraction. For how long? .

The problem is one of logistics and management, not capacity.
There are more obese people on the planet than there are starving ones. We waste a ridiculous amount as individuals and also on a corporate / national level. Take a look in the bin outside any supermarket - it will be overflowing with perfectly good food!

How much food does the EU destroy to prop up prices?

Most famines are acts of genocide, not acts of god. War is the major cause of famine, closely followed by our old friend corruption.

bnt wrote: »

Say you start having kids now, what kind of world do you think they'll find in 20 years time? Smart people, who think about the future, tend to have fewer or no kids.

People who don't want lots of kids tend to have less kids, to infer intelligence or otherwise from that is extremely tenuous. There are idiots with no kids (I know quite a few in fact) and there are geniuses with loads of them (I also know 1 or 2 of those).

If you really believe the world is going to go to shít in 20 years, the only moral option is to have no kids. Why would you inflict the coming hell on 1 or 2 innocent babies?

There may well be a billion plus people going hungry, but they are largely in Africa and Asia - not really the most compelling of arguments to remain childless in Ireland now is it?

This all comes across more as parroting ill thought out sound bites, than the result of any deliberate contemplation on your part I have to say.

whoopsadoodles · 09-01-2018 2:24pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

In light of all that, there's no way you can fully monitor them, especially as teenagers. You may as well demystify it now and not make it forbidden fruit but teach them how to browse and use the net safely.

Totally agree with this.

My daughter started out with an itouch with full parental lock down. She could imessage myself and her dad and grandparents at the time. I subsquently moved to android. She got her first smartphone when she was 11 but only because she was going to America on her own so I wanted her to have whatsapp to contact us. She also had a second block phone for emergencies which she carried in her gear bag at all times.

She has never held much interest in anything tech (aside from Lego mindstorms and her brief fling with coder dojo) and so her phone is usually uncharged or left at home. She is not allowed to take it to bed.

I monitored her phone for long enough to see that she's as trustworthy as they come and so she was allowed to install Instagram recently.

I've drilled it into her about internet safety. I've let her watch catfish so she sees the real life effects.

She now has an iphone. I know all of her pins and passwords, but I don't constantly use them as I want her to know I trust her too. I don't want her to ever hide anything from me, or at least ever feel she needs to. I don't want to totally mollycoddle her and I want her to make good choices for herself, not because she's afraid I'll see.

I talk to her about bullying and I talk to her about sex. I talk to her constantly so that I know she knows what to do in any situation I can think of. She knows that if she was ever involved in bullying online she would be banned from life. All through talking and explaining. The most important thing I've taught her from day one is em pathy.

I mentioned earlier she was in America on her own. That was because she's an extremely talented basketball player. She was the youngest on the camp by a couple of years and she returned the following year yet again. She now has an open invitation to go for the entire summer. She plays for a number of teams while also playing hockey and up until very recently was also in the football premier league for her age, only cutting this out to make more time for basketball. Having a phone hasn't restricted any of that. It has however allowed her to arrange to go to the cinema with her friends or invite people to come eat pizza with her. It's also allowed her friend to text and ask "I didn't understand that piece of homework, can you help". And. Yep. She likes to pan out in front of her Nickelodeon shyte when her body is wrecked from all her training but she also eats books and was reading before she began primary school.

Essentially I'm saying I think totally restricting all tech until 18 is a bad idea. Particularly as in 10 years the world will have moved so so much. There's a balance that should be sought and I think getting that balance wrong can be destructive whichever way you fall.

draiochtanois · 09-01-2018 2:25pm

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LirW · 09-01-2018 2:29pm

The thing is though, generally speaking that in the first few months it's difficult for someone to just hand the baby to someone else for a few hours, especially when breastfeeding.

I understand and appreciate that someone who has a severe aversion regarding kids will most likely have a very child-free environment.
But many don't. In a lot of friend circles there is the first one who'll have a child, while others are still miles away, even though they plan kids in the future. Sometimes it's expected that women should preferably lock themselves in for the first few years with a kid because kids are generally seen as a nuisance anywhere in public beside playgrounds and it's automatically assumed they'll cause havoc.
It's also expected from women that stay with their kids to have an exclusive mom-only environment because, well, she's a mother now. And believe me, these mother-baby groups can be really awkward.
In a lot of cliques the arrival of the first kid it something strange because it changes the dynamic and it's automatically assumed that the couple is out now, which in a lot of cases isn't even the case. I'm more than happy to not talk about kids when I'm meeting up with people but funnily enough the other party talks about it then. Weird world it is.

_Roz_ · 09-01-2018 2:35pm

LirW wrote: »

The thing is though, generally speaking that in the first few months it's difficult for someone to just hand the baby to someone else for a few hours, especially when breastfeeding.

I understand and appreciate that someone who has a severe aversion regarding kids will most likely have a very child-free environment.
But many don't. In a lot of friend circles there is the first one who'll have a child, while others are still miles away, even though they plan kids in the future. Sometimes it's expected that women should preferably lock themselves in for the first few years with a kid because kids are generally seen as a nuisance anywhere in public beside playgrounds and it's automatically assumed they'll cause havoc.
It's also expected from women that stay with their kids to have an exclusive mom-only environment because, well, she's a mother now. And believe me, these mother-baby groups can be really awkward.
In a lot of cliques the arrival of the first kid it something strange because it changes the dynamic and it's automatically assumed that the couple is out now, which in a lot of cases isn't even the case. I'm more than happy to not talk about kids when I'm meeting up with people but funnily enough the other party talks about it then. Weird world it is.

I've read a lot of articles about things like post-natal depression, the lonliness of the early months of having a child (particularly your first) etc etc because honestly reading those stories was a big part of me figuring out whether I actually didn't want kids, or whether I was just afraid I'd be a terrible mother due to my current apparent aversion to them ('it's different when its your own etc'.) So I can't say I understand, but I definitely agree that having a baby is often glamourized as this cute family unit who are complete and perfect now, albeit with lots of tiredness. There isn't much discussion around the change in dynamics across all the relationships those parents have with friends, family, work committments etc.

For my own friends, I would likely make more of an effort than I'm letting on here, because they're my friends. They're mini versions of the best people in the world, they can't be all bad.

Owta Control · 09-01-2018 2:40pm

draiochtanois wrote: »

It's a very common theme among the Silicon Valley Elite

8 years ago...the world has moved on a lot since then

John_D80 · 09-01-2018 2:41pm

I have never met a single person who regretted having children but I have met quite a few that regretted not having kids.

In fact of all the childless people I have spoken to on the subject who are now too old to start a family, I would say about 80% of them would freely admit to regretting their choice.

erica74 · 09-01-2018 2:41pm

LirW wrote: »

Sometimes it's expected that women should preferably lock themselves in for the first few years with a kid because kids are generally seen as a nuisance anywhere in public beside playgrounds and it's automatically assumed they'll cause havoc.

I don't expect any parent to lock themselves away for the first few years with a kid. I expect every parent to teach their child manners and respect and how to behave in public, along with following through on consequences if they don't behave in public. What I see time and time again is parents ignoring their children while they run wild in public and disturb every other person in their vicinity. If those type of parents cannot teach their children how to behave in public and/or follow through on a suitable lesson for their children misbehaving in public, then yes, they should just stay at home.

I don't want children, never have and never will. I'm 30 and have been married for 5 years. I occasionally get asked questions by strangers (everyone important in my life knows where I stand on children) if they notice my rings or I mention my husband, they'll ask if we have children and when I say no, they say things like "oh well, plenty of time left" or "you're still young" or ask "how long have you been married?" Plenty of people, who are usually complete strangers, have no boundaries when it comes to this topic.

When I see parents with their children they look exhausted and miserable. When I hear a parent talk about their life, it all revolves around their children, that just doesn't appeal to me.

LirW · 09-01-2018 2:46pm

The thing is that the concept of the very small family unit is a relatively new one where it is expected that in most cases the mother is shouldering it on her own. Up the 20th century women had different surroundings and networks around them, it wasn't unusual to have a big family or community around or, if you were rich, to have a nanny and a wet nurse for your child.
But this dynamic changed, now families are micro units with having a house on your own, living greater distances apart, the financial need of working and also a very present mom-culture that is bashed into you that you are supposed to fulfill. I'm talking about she needs to breastfeed while cooking dinner when she's balancing over a canyon and right after that she does her 72hour nightshift.
Anyway, all of these new occurrences make it very lonely if you're not fitting into this perfect picture of power mother. It's a thin line to balance and a lot don't actually manage (you're not supposed to talk about it though because it was your choice to have kids, so stick it out!). I understand why you would refuse children because of that.
But some women are maternal and want to brood, yet lack social interaction at some point. There is still a strong picture present that once a woman has a child, she's a mother and not an individual anymore.

erica74 · 09-01-2018 2:50pm

LirW wrote: »

But some women are maternal and want to brood, yet lack social interaction at some point. There is still a strong picture present that once a woman has a child, she's a mother and not an individual anymore.

I think a lot of women project that picture as well though. You see it online especially - their biography on their social media accounts lists "Mom" as the first word they use to describe themselves and sometimes, the only word.

sbsquarepants · 09-01-2018 2:53pm

erica74 wrote: »

I don't want children, never have and never will. I'm 30 and have been married for 5 years. I occasionally get asked questions by strangers (everyone important in my life knows where I stand on children) if they notice my rings or I mention my husband, they'll ask if we have children and when I say no, they say things like "oh well, plenty of time left" or "you're still young" or ask "how long have you been married?" Plenty of people, who are usually complete strangers, have no boundaries when it comes to this topic.

I thinks stuff like that is more just small talk than prying or being judgemental.

It's like going in to work and running in to whoever "how are you?" "good weekend?" - I don't actually care how they are or what they've done, I'm just filling the silence with words!

Hannibal_Smith · 09-01-2018 2:54pm

erica74 wrote: »

I don't expect any parent to lock themselves away for the first few years with a kid. I expect every parent to teach their child manners and respect and how to behave in public, along with following through on consequences if they don't behave in public. What I see time and time again is parents ignoring their children while they run wild in public and disturb every other person in their vicinity. If those type of parents cannot teach their children how to behave in public and/or follow through on a suitable lesson for their children misbehaving in public, then yes, they should just stay at home.

I don't want children, never have and never will. I'm 30 and have been married for 5 years. I occasionally get asked questions by strangers (everyone important in my life knows where I stand on children) if they notice my rings or I mention my husband, they'll ask if we have children and when I say no, they say things like "oh well, plenty of time left" or "you're still young" or ask "how long have you been married?" Plenty of people, who are usually complete strangers, have no boundaries when it comes to this topic.

When I see parents with their children they look exhausted and miserable. When I hear a parent talk about their life, it all revolves around their children, that just doesn't appeal to me.

I don't know where you live, but as a parent I'm constantly in situations, parks, playgrounds, restaurants and the amount of kids running or behaving wildly is very few.

You can have as many disciplinary procedures in place with kids as you like. Sometimes they get a mood on them and they will listen to no one! If that's the snapshot of someone's life that you are seeing, it's bad form to base your judgement on a snapshot of someone's life.

LirW · 09-01-2018 2:59pm

erica74 wrote: »

I think a lot of women project that picture as well though. You see it online especially - their biography on their social media accounts lists "Mom" as the first word they use to describe themselves and sometimes, the only word.

Some women have very little education and didn't work or will stay at home with the kids. These women are in fact mothers.
But there is a majority of women that have kids, love their kids yet have a job or career goals to pursue. Some women aren't interested in the clownish mom clubs. There's little understanding for women that don't fit into "Mom" - or "no children". I made the experience that the mom front sees you as a bad mother because you put work over children (especially where I come from) and people with no kids see you as a mother because you have to cater your kids too at the end of the day and are not on call anymore the way you were prior to kids.

_Roz_ · 09-01-2018 3:03pm

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I don't know where you live, but as a parent I'm constantly in situations, parks, playgrounds, restaurants and the amount of kids running or behaving wildly is very few.

You can have as many disciplinary procedures in place with kids as you like. Sometimes they get a mood on them and they will listen to no one! If that's the snapshot of someone's life that you are seeing, it's bad form to base your judgement on a snapshot of someone's life.

Any time I see kids on the bus they don't do what they're told. They're told repeatedly to sit down, stop standing on the seat, don't press the button. Hardly if ever have I seen a kid (who didn't have their eyes plastered to a game/show on a tablet) who just sat there quietly as they're told. One kid once was just sitting on the stairs while the bus was moving. Mother told her come down, nothing. Mother then says to the woman beside her - 'she never listens to me when you're here.' They laughed and talked about something else. I wouldn't have dreamt of behaving in that manner when I was a child. I sat down and shut up when I was told.

erica74 · 09-01-2018 3:24pm

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I don't know where you live, but as a parent I'm constantly in situations, parks, playgrounds, restaurants and the amount of kids running or behaving wildly is very few.

You can have as many disciplinary procedures in place with kids as you like. Sometimes they get a mood on them and they will listen to no one! If that's the snapshot of someone's life that you are seeing, it's bad form to base your judgement on a snapshot of someone's life.

Lucky you.

LirW · 09-01-2018 4:02pm

For real though, whenever I'm shopping, out anywhere for sports, park etc, the vast majority of kids are grand. Maybe the bad behavior stands out even more because you have a general disliking of kids and you're sensitive in that regard? Whenever I'm in a grocery store, there are usually loads of kids in all ages in with their parents and pretty much all of them are just with their parents doing the shopping. Sometimes you see a toddler break loose followed by a sprinting mother picking it up and continuing doing their thing.
Don't get me wrong, obnoxious kids are out there and they can be a real pain but you wouldn't even notice the majority of kids that pass you in life.

Thich Nhat Hanh · 09-01-2018 5:23pm

John_D80 wrote: »

I have never met a single person who regretted having children but I have met quite a few that regretted not having kids.

In fact of all the childless people I have spoken to on the subject who are now too old to start a family, I would say about 80% of them would freely admit to regretting their choice.

I love how people with kids tell childless people how miserable we are. I think it’s a brave decision not to have kids because of the stigma against it, and the fact you may have to examine what you’re doing here and what your purpose is. Having kids stops all that questioning. Not that it’s by choice for all e.g health reasons and men who just can’t get women! I know one girl in her late 30s who’s been buying danish sperm off the internet for months now in a desperate attempt to conceive. This is not an option for men!
Anyway at this stage on planet earth those not having children should be commended. Should we just all keep having child after child until all resources and space are gone? Only leads to one thing. War.
What government is going to promote the idea of all of us having less kids? People will say there’s loads of space in Ireland but there’s not really, it’s one big sprawl of one off housing and dead towns. We can’t even manage the population we have so the future looks bleak.
The problem is those who are poor and uneducated seem to be having lots of kids but the squeezed middle can’t afford to. All of these things make me feel ok about having no kids.

LirW · 09-01-2018 5:32pm

Certain parts of the world have a very young population, which is an indication that their population exploded in the last 3 decades. Anyway, the population in the most developed parts of the world is declining. You basically answered yourself a question there. Why should a family in Ireland that has the means to raise a child (one child or even two) in a good environment not have kids because Africa is breeding like rabbits?
Without the migration movements from the East the population of Europe would be hugely declining.

Kids. Yes or no ?

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