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N17 - Knock to Collooney [design & planning underway]

  • 02-01-2018 9:03pm
    #1
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    This scheme has been brought back to life as part of TII's programme of reactivating schemes that were suspended back in the recession. This will not see construction before 2022.

    Scheme will consist of 14km of Type 2 dual carriageway and will extend from the N4 at Collooney to north of Tobercurry. The scheme does not bypass Tobercurry.

    Quote from Sligo County Council
    For The first time in a number of years we have received an allocation in respect of the N17. This reflects the continued engagement by SCC Management with TII on the N17 Schemes which have been suspended for a number of years. While the allocation is modest and will only allow us carry out a limited review of existing documentation the fact that the Scheme is once more on the TII Agenda is very welcome and a very significant development.
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Comments

  • #2
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    This is great news. The N17 beyond Tobercurry is one of the absolute worst stretches of national road in the country. I'm very surprised they're only going to build 14 km of road though - that's barely halfway from the N4 to Tobercurry. Marno, do you have a link to the announcement? Has there been any discussion of upgrading the N17 from Tobercurry to the N5 (which would solve most of the worst problems on that road)?


  • #3
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    This is great news. The N17 beyond Tobercurry is one of the absolute worst stretches of national road in the country. I'm very surprised they're only going to build 14 km of road though - that's barely halfway from the N4 to Tobercurry. Marno, do you have a link to the announcement? Has there been any discussion of upgrading the N17 from Tobercurry to the N5 (which would solve most of the worst problems on that road)?

    http://www.sligococo.ie/FeaturedContent/TIIFunding/

    The N17 Tobercurry bypass and N17 Knock-Tobercurry schemes remain suspended. The N17 Tuam-Claremorris scheme is up in the air and the N17 Claremorris/Knock bypass dialling was abandoned in 2007.

    It's looking like Collooney-Tobercurry and perhaps Tuam-Claremorris this side of 2030.


  • #4
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,665 ✭✭✭serfboard


    marno21 wrote: »
    The N17 Tobercurry bypass and N17 Knock-Tobercurry schemes remain suspended. The N17 Tuam-Claremorris scheme is up in the air and the N17 Claremorris/Knock bypass dialling was abandoned in 2007.

    It's looking like Collooney-Tobercurry and perhaps Tuam-Claremorris this side of 2030.
    The really bad section of the N17 now is from Curry to Ballinacarrow. The Tobercurry to Collooney scheme includes Ballinacarrow to Collooney, which is actually decent enough.

    Tuam to Claremorris has improved an awful lot and should have a lower priority, IMO.

    I'd much rather if they did the Tubercurry bypass, since it takes out far more of the sh1tty sections of road.


  • #5
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    This scheme has been reactivated and is funded in TII's 2018 allocations, along with Tobercurry-Collooney.

    This will likely include the planned Tobercurry bypass meaning dual carriageway from the northern end of the Knock bypass to the N4 at Collooney.

    The scheme will likely be included in the new Capital Plan.


  • #6
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    serfboard wrote: »
    The really bad section of the N17 now is from Curry to Ballinacarrow. The Tobercurry to Collooney scheme includes Ballinacarrow to Collooney, which is actually decent enough.

    Tuam to Claremorris has improved an awful lot and should have a lower priority, IMO.

    I'd much rather if they did the Tubercurry bypass, since it takes out far more of the sh1tty sections of road.
    Knock-Tobercurry has also been reactivated: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057826815

    I would imagine that between these two schemes, Tobercurry will be bypassed.

    Tuam-Claremorris did not get reactivated, but the last bad stretch between Milltown and Ballindine will be realigned in 2019/2020.


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  • #7
    discodaveirl
    Registered Users Posts: 279 ✭✭discodaveirl


    marno21 wrote: »
    This scheme has been reactivated and is funded in TII's 2018 allocations, along with Tobercurry-Collooney.

    This will likely include the planned Tobercurry bypass meaning dual carriageway from the northern end of the Knock bypass to the N4 at Collooney.

    The scheme will likely be included in the new Capital Plan.

    Complete waste of expenditure at the moment... Nothing wrong wirh the road until about Lurga (just north of Knock airport). Fly over on the N5 and then join the N17 north of Charlestown. Us the existing 5/6km to Curry and start the Tubber bypass out the East side and new road to the bridge North of Ballinacarrow.


  • #8
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    discodaveirl wrote: »
    Complete waste of expenditure at the moment... Nothing wrong wirh the road until about Lurga (just north of Knock airport). Fly over on the N5 and then join the N17 north of Charlestown. Us the existing 5/6km to Curry and start the Tubber bypass out the East side and new road to the bridge North of Ballinacarrow.
    Good stretches of road where possible will be integrated into the new road, minimising overall costs. Around 3km of widened single carriageway at the northern end of the N4 near Collooney is being integrated into the new N4 Collooney-Castlebaldwin scheme.


  • #9
    joujoujou
    Registered Users Posts: 13,494 ✭✭✭✭joujoujou
    Unregistered Users


    marno21 wrote: »
    [...]

    I would imagine that between these two schemes, Tobercurry will be bypassed.

    [...]

    I really hope you're right. Along with Curry - Tubbercurry and Tubbercurry - Ballinacarrow sections it'd significantly improve traffic flow and safety.


  • #10
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    joujoujou wrote: »
    I really hope you're right. Along with Curry - Tubbercurry and Tubbercurry - Ballinacarrow sections it'd significantly improve traffic flow and safety.
    I'd be thinking if they're building 50km or so of DC they wouldn't leave a town in the middle.

    I'd imagine Mayo CC will take care of Knock-Tobercurry and Sligo CC will take care of an extended Tobercurry-Collooney which will also include the old N17 Tobercurry bypass scheme.


  • #11
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    More terrible Type 2 DC. They really need to fix the standard to include a hard shoulder - most S2 have this.

    Example of the standard I'm thinking of: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.6461666,-6.7222209,3a,83y,45.83h,95.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-AoSokJQTurNGNWXJ8IWRA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


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  • #12
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    sdanseo wrote: »
    More terrible Type 2 DC. They really need to fix the standard to include a hard shoulder - most S2 have this.

    Example of the standard I'm thinking of: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.6461666,-6.7222209,3a,83y,45.83h,95.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-AoSokJQTurNGNWXJ8IWRA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
    They won't be.

    The reason for the 2+2 with no shoulder is that the 2+2 standard gives around a 50% increase in capacity on the old WS2 whilst costing only 10% more.

    Having a very busy wide S2 road that's 15m wide and only 2 lanes with big empty hard shoulders is a terrible waste of tarmac. If slow vehicles pulled into the hard shoulder it would make overtaking easier, but if the hard shoulder is a lane for slow vehicles to pull into, may as well make it an actual driving lane. Having a central divider also cuts out head on collisions and removes dangerous right turns.

    If a car breaks down, they can remain in lane 1 with their flashers on and with the sightlines on the 2+2 roads, a driver should be able to safely pull into Lane 2 to avoid them. Because there is no hard shoulder it means no more people pulling into the shoulder for a smoke or a bit to eat.


  • #13
    BelfastVanMan
    Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭BelfastVanMan


    sdanseo wrote: »
    More terrible Type 2 DC. They really need to fix the standard to include a hard shoulder - most S2 have this.

    Example of the standard I'm thinking of: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.6461666,-6.7222209,3a,83y,45.83h,95.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-AoSokJQTurNGNWXJ8IWRA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

    That stretch of N51 is Type 1 DC, surely?


  • #14
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    marno21 wrote: »
    They won't be.

    The reason for the 2+2 with no shoulder is that the 2+2 standard gives around a 50% increase in capacity on the old WS2 whilst costing only 10% more.

    Having a very busy wide S2 road that's 15m wide and only 2 lanes with big empty hard shoulders is a terrible waste of tarmac. If slow vehicles pulled into the hard shoulder it would make overtaking easier, but if the hard shoulder is a lane for slow vehicles to pull into, may as well make it an actual driving lane. Having a central divider also cuts out head on collisions and removes dangerous right turns.

    If a car breaks down, they can remain in lane 1 with their flashers on and with the sightlines on the 2+2 roads, a driver should be able to safely pull into Lane 2 to avoid them. Because there is no hard shoulder it means no more people pulling into the shoulder for a smoke or a bit to eat.

    I get the concept, just think it's dangerous not to provide a hard shoulder when people have come to expect them. Drivers don't all have the foresight you and I have and trundle along at 100km/h (and the rest) and not expect a blockage in a running lane. Everything we hear about motorway safety is never ever stop, and that's with a HS, let alone without. 100km/h DC is not much different to motorway in terms of traffic dynamics.

    Would be interesting to look at the accident stats to see if the theory backs those thoughts up though. Did a thesis on road safety but curiously this isn't something I looked at.
    BelfastVanMan wrote: »
    That stretch of N51 is Type 1 DC, surely?

    No, type 1 is HQDC (i.e. upgradable to Motorway and grade seperated as opposed to roundbouts, like the N2 from St Margaret's to Finglas or the N7).
    http://tiipublications.ie/downloads/SRM/14-NRA-New-Divided-Road-Types-December-2007.pdf


  • #15
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There were older standards, that would have been built to something predating the Type- standards.


  • #16
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    It was the lowest type of DC that could be built pre the current Type designations as L1011 said above.

    There's similar on the M2, other parts of the M3, and on the M18 Ennis bypass, and on the R774 off the N11 at Greystones.


  • #17
    BelfastVanMan
    Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭BelfastVanMan


    Cheers folks. :-)


  • #18
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    marno21 wrote: »
    It was the lowest type of DC that could be built pre the current Type designations as L1011 said above.

    There's similar on the M2, other parts of the M3, and on the M18 Ennis bypass, and on the R774 off the N11 at Greystones.
    Type 2 Dual (16.5m pavement) has generally replaced the old Wide S2 (2 x 5m lanes with 3m hard shoulders => 15m pavement). To me, this is a sensible re-allocation of resources given that the change in standard only required an additional 1.5m in pavement width. With lesser verges (2.5m instead of 3m), the actual land take is only an additional 0.5m in total.


  • #19
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Type 2 Dual (16.5m pavement) has generally replaced the old Wide S2 (2 x 5m lanes with 3m hard shoulders => 15m pavement). To me, this is a sensible re-allocation of resources given that the change in standard only required an additional 1.5m in pavement width. With lesser verges (2.5m instead of 3m), the actual land take is only an additional 0.5m in total.
    Indeed.

    We've seen a lot of accidents on WS2s due to head on collisions and collisions with turning vehicles. With a 2+2 you get an extra lane on either side for safe overtaking and no more turning conflicts. Win win in my book.

    The amount of times there is a legitimate need for a hard shoulder nowadays negates the justifiable need for one on most of these roads. Having a 2nd lane in each direction is much more useful.


  • #20
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    According to the TII website, this project has now moved into the pre-appraisal stage where the project will be assessed to see if it merits prioritisation for funding under the National Development Plan. I fully expect this to enter full planning by the end of 2018.


  • #21
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    marno21 wrote: »
    According to the TII website, this project has now moved into the pre-appraisal stage where the project will be assessed to see if it merits prioritisation for funding under the National Development Plan. I fully expect this to enter full planning by the end of 2018.

    Hallelujah! Some of the worst national road I have ever driven on here (and an important part of the Atlantic Corridor). Build baby build.


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  • #22
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Mayo County Council's design office have now commenced work on a 55km scheme which encompasses the N17 Knock-Charlestown, N17 Charlestown-Tobercurry, N17 Tobercurry bypass & N17 Tobercurry-Collooney schemes.

    http://www.regdesign.com/?page_id=3367


  • #23
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Tender out for consultancy services for Phase 2 of this scheme

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=151266&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders


  • #24
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Tender out for traffic counts along the route

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/153324/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE


  • #25
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Tender out for traffic and transport assessment for the project

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/153421/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE


  • #26
    betistuc
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭betistuc


    Did this route yesterday. Curry to Collooney is particularly lethal. Nothing less than 100% concentration required to complete this busy ,narrow, glorified boreen safely. After the glorious M18/17 earlier in the day , this felt like I'd been transported back to the fifties. It needs a very urgent upgrade.


  • #27
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,665 ✭✭✭serfboard


    betistuc wrote: »
    Curry to Collooney is particularly lethal. Nothing less than 100% concentration required to complete this busy ,narrow, glorified boreen safely. After the glorious M18/17 earlier in the day , this felt like I'd been transported back to the fifties. It needs a very urgent upgrade.
    Indeed.

    I can't understand amalgamating this scheme with others to create a large (IIRC) 55km scheme (Knock->Collooney), meaning it will be years before it gets budgeted for, versus taking out the dangerous 25km stretch of Curry->Ballynacarrow which will obviously be cheaper and therefore more likely to proceed.


  • #28
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    serfboard wrote: »
    Indeed.

    I can't understand amalgamating this scheme with others to create a large (IIRC) 55km scheme (Knock->Collooney), meaning it will be years before it gets budgeted for, versus taking out the dangerous 25km stretch of Curry->Ballynacarrow which will obviously be cheaper and therefore more likely to proceed.

    TII were clear last year that they are advancing some of these big schemes as one scheme through planning to save on costs, but once they achieve planning permission they may be constructed in phases depending on budget.

    It’s cheaper to do the planning on Knock-Collooney as one rather than the 4 schemes it was made up of previously.


  • #29
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,665 ✭✭✭serfboard


    marno21 wrote: »
    once they achieve planning permission they may be constructed in phases depending on budget.
    Ah OK. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks.


  • #30
    MY BAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭MY BAD


    http://www.sligococo.ie/N17KCAEC/?fbclid=IwAR0oWOnICpTkKvBeBD-FCjcDVHmhJFVLLJ8g_lK06GqBpwh1vhxiB7IVqWM


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  • #31
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote: »
    http://www.sligococo.ie/N17KCAEC/?fbclid=IwAR0oWOnICpTkKvBeBD-FCjcDVHmhJFVLLJ8g_lK06GqBpwh1vhxiB7IVqWM
    Thank you. Looks like Sligo have taken this over from Mayo.

    An absolutely massive scheme and not without merit. This would be an absolute game changer for the region if built.

    Good to see them using marketing here and calling it the "Atlantic Economic Corridor". I always thought road schemes would become more talked about if they were given names such as the "West Cork expressway" or whatever.


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