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Lewis Hamilton went vegan after watching this documentary

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭Eathrin


    kylith wrote: »
    Not all land is suitable for growing crops, especially as is seen in this country, upland, rocky terrain.
    Livestock covers 45% of global land. I'm sure some of it would be suitable for crop production.

    https://cgspace.cgiar.org/bitstream/handle/10568/10601/IssueBrief3.pdf


    In fact... we wouldn't even need to assign any of this land to crop production. We already grow enough food to feed everyone on earth, extremely comfortably. The problem is that most of this food goes to feeding livestock.

    https://www.commondreams.org/views/2012/05/08/we-already-grow-enough-food-10-billion-people-and-still-cant-end-hunger



    I'd think that dairy and eggs would be seen as better than eating meat. After all neither causes any harm to the animal.

    I'd agree with that to an extent, but my question was as to why it is not actually possible to be a healthy vegan if one can be a healthy vegetarian.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭Eathrin


    Documentaries aren't a great primary source for stuff like this, IMO. You need years of large scale research to really understand the effects of various diets, and I highly doubt findings as sognificant as this documentary is claiming would go under the radar.

    That's true but the average Joe doesn't go reading many research papers and documentaries are a bit more accessible. No problem there if they can back up their claims.
    Fair point, but even long term, how do you convince those farmers to just give up their livelihood and switch to something else? I don't disagree at all that our current farming methods are unsustainable, I just don't see a complete u-turn to veganism as the solution.

    Yeah I'd say that's a big problem alright. This might require long term planning from the government to facilitate any change comfortably, something I wouldn't hold my breath for.

    What are the costs of replacing them? Is it really a viable solution? I'm genuinely not sure on this point.

    To the consumer? Much cheaper I'd imagine. For example, a tin of kidney beans or chickpeas would have slightly less protein than a breast of chicken at a fraction of the cost.
    What do we replace them with? Do the replacements have the same benefits? Personally I'd be quote happy to replace them in my diet but I don't see any options to that are currently widely available.

    Not very easy in this country especially eating out but I think people tend to go for things like soya milk, almond butter, chia seeds etc...


    Do you step up to the challenge? Do you avoid the use of electricity? Are you posting this from a sustainably produced device? Drive a car? It's not easy to live in the modern world and not do something that harms the earth. I'm not trying to be a smart ass either, it's a genuine problem and I don't know what we're going to do about it, this is getting off topic and I'm veering into rambling to myself now though.

    Absolutely, it's not easy. For all the changes I've made in my life, I'm still a culprit in many ways. I can tell you for certain that if everyone gave up the car and went vegan tomorrow, our world wouldn't be in crisis. That is, of course, an insane suggestion, so what do we do?

    Would people think it mad for our government to introduce a meat tax? What about massively increasing motor tax when electric vehicles become more accessible? (Provided adequate investment in green energy plants)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Ugh this "documentary" has been debunked thoroughly, it is absolutely 100% garbage science based in a vegan fantasy land


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,045 ✭✭✭✭gramar


    chicorytip wrote: »
    Not really. You are more likely to die on a golf course than in a Formula One car these days.

    Of course you are. Millions play golf. A handful of people drive F1 cars.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭Gwynplaine


    He may have gone Vegan, but he still puts meat in his mouth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,145 ✭✭✭circadian


    jacksie66 wrote: »

    Also that thread name is pure click bait.

    I thought it was satire. "You won't believe what happened next!!"


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,183 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Eathrin wrote: »
    To the consumer? Much cheaper I'd imagine. For example, a tin of kidney beans or chickpeas would have slightly less protein than a breast of chicken at a fraction of the cost.
    Chickpeas or chicken. I know which I'd prefer.

    Not very easy in this country especially eating out but I think people tend to go for things like soya milk, almond butter, chia seeds etc...
    I'd be very wary of adding soy to any Westerners diet. It's a novel protein for such populations. Asian folks have been consuming it for over two thousand years so are likely more compatible with it(a huge chunk of the local genetic changes in humans over the last 20,000 years have been dietary adaptations). The health benefits are very vague if you read the studies on it, as are the health risks, but until the jury is in and certainly as a man I'd not touch the stuff with a bargepole.
    Would people think it mad for our government to introduce a meat tax?
    I'd prefer the government to stay away from my plate TBH.
    What about massively increasing motor tax when electric vehicles become more accessible? (Provided adequate investment in green energy plants)
    Well the green energy part is the problem. As it is, something like one of the more powerful Tesla's produce more CO2 than a few smaller engined petrol cars. That's before we get to the manufacture of any car. The manufacture of electric cars is just as bad a pollution source as a petrol car, arguably worse because the various elements of the batteries are "dirty" processes and come from all over the world by "dirty" transport.

    The elephant in the room is our consumer culture. The economies of First world societies are based on it and until we tackle that we're just paying lip service or shoving the icky stuff down the line or away from our back yard. If anything electric cars will increase the churn of manufacture. Petrol cars have changed little enough down the years, so a ten year old car is not that much different to a brand new car, but the speed of change and upgrades in electric cars will naturally have more people wanting the latest upgrade, which will increase the churn. How many mobile phone models have you owned? What happened to your "old" phones? I've said it elsewhere and as an exaggeration of this issue, but a valid one IMHO: If your great grandparents bought a Ford Model A back in the 30's and the family kept it going down to today, it would be far more "green" than buying a Nissan Leaf or whatever every three or four years.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,172 ✭✭✭EPAndlee


    I personally think if you want to be vegan then be vegan but don't start this ****e of constantly trying to force it upon everyone else. People need to make the choice for themselves. If it's okay in nature for a polar bear to eat a baby seal and a lion to eat a zebra then it's okay of me to eat a cow. If we stopped eating meat what do we do with the millions of cows,pigs, sheep? Keep them as pets? What about all the farmers that make a living from dairy,pigs,sheep,chickens etc?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 761 ✭✭✭GerryDerpy


    When Hamilton is not tearing around a track in a race car, he is tearing around the world in a private jet. If he cares about the environment then he is at worst a hypocrit, at best a bit dim.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,303 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Eathrin wrote: »
    That's true but the average Joe doesn't go reading many research papers and documentaries are a bit more accessible. No problem there if they can back up their claims.

    Many people accept documentaries like gospel. A film-maker can spin almost any tale or narrative he/she pleases,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,893 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Many people accept documentaries like gospel. A film-maker can spin almost any tale or narrative he/she pleases,

    If someone went to the effort to make a movie or even a youtube video then they must be telling the truth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    If I had to live my life using Lewis Hamilton as my inspirational guide I'd take myself off to Switzerland for a dose of euthanasia.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭Eathrin


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Chickpeas or chicken. I know which I'd prefer

    You're entitled to prefer one thing over another. That doesn't make it right to do it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Eathrin wrote: »
    I haven't seen the documentary but why all the negativity towards him for making this change? Why do people insist on vegetarianism and veganism on being acts of pretentiousness?

    In reality;
    (1) meat production is one of the largest contributors to climate change
    (2) slaughtering animals for food is unnecessarily cruel
    (3) one can live a perfectly healthy life as a vegetarian/vegan and often consumption of meat is the direct cause of many health issues inlcuding cancer.
    (4) Meat production is an extremely inefficient use of land, energy and resources such as water in a world with ever increasing population

    Nothing wrong in choosing a plant based diet as preference - what I can't stand is the stench of sanctimony from extreme vegan preachers.

    So here's an alternative view of life ...

    1) it is believed that human based activities are the main contributors to climate change

    2) Animals have been eating other animals since the dawn of time. Happily we no longer run down animals over cliffs with flint topped spears

    3) Humans who eat meat as part of a balanced diet are less prone to deficiencies and other diet related problems

    4) The main problem in the world is overpopulation. The rest is moving chairs on the Titanic

    5) Vegan based propaganda wants me to aaarrrghhhh .....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Eathrin wrote: »
    You're entitled to prefer one thing over another. That doesn't make it right to do it.

    Conversely it doesn't make it wrong either as you seem to be implying


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭pxdf9i5cmoavkz


    jacksie66 wrote: »
    That documentary is ridiculous. It claims eating a few eggs a day is the same as smoking a box of fags. Even has a clip of a woman serving fried cigarettes to her kids. Pure militant vegan nonsense.

    Also that thread name is pure click bait.

    Watched some of the video and they're using the classic emotional triggers.

    1. Scary words (Cancer / diabetes).
    2. Science that doesn't work.
    3. Vegan solution.
    4. Sob story.
    5. Tears.
    6. HALLELUJAH; It's a miracle; I'm cured in two weeks flat.
    7. Spend money here to learn how.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Eathrin wrote: »
    Livestock covers 45% of global land. I'm sure some of it would be suitable for crops

    Grassland makes some 40.5 percent of the terrestrial area excluding Greenland and Antarctica (World Resources Institute, 2000, based on IGBP data).

    Much of this is natural grassland such as North American Prairie, the South American Pampas, and the East European Steppe.

    Do you know what happened in the US during the dust bowl era where natural grassland areas had their protective grassland cover removed? Look it up.
    Eathrin wrote: »
    In fact... we wouldn't even need to assign any of this land to crop production. We already grow enough food to feed everyone on earth, extremely comfortably. The problem is that most of this food goes to feeding livestock.

    Absolutely untrue. Most of the food fed to livestock (outside of cattle directly eating grass hay etc ) is the left over byproducts of the human food industry. Ie what is left over after feeding humans is fed to cattle and other ruminants

    The problem is that there are too any humans (probably)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants



    I'LL COPY LEWIS

    Me too. When do I get my shot of Nicole Scherzinger?


    Is it not a pretty much accepted fact though, that a vegan diet is much healthier than any other?

    I wouldn't be into it myself, I could probably manage without the meat but no milk? No eggs? That's what cakes and biscuits are made from:eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭Eathrin


    gozunda wrote: »
    Nothing wrong in choosing a plant based diet as preference - what I can't stand is the stench of sanctimony from extreme vegan preachers.

    So here's an alternative view of life ...

    1) it is believed that human based activities are the main contributors to climate change

    2) Animals have been eating other animals since the dawn of time. Happily we no longer run down animals over cliffs with flint topped spears

    3) Humans who eat meat as part of a balanced diet are less prone to deficiencies and other diet related problems

    4) The main problem in the world is overpopulation. The rest is moving chairs on the Titanic

    5) Vegan based propaganda wants aaarrrghhhh .....

    Human based activities include modern farming. Do you deny that farming has no major contribution to climate change? That's real head in the sand stuff.

    I suppose what we really need is a good old fashioned cull of the population. Perhaps a new plague or a holocaust. I mean, we have enough food to feed everyone as it is, but no, feck em right?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Eathrin wrote: »
    I suppose what we really need is a good old fashioned cull of the population. Perhaps a new plague or a holocaust. I mean, we have enough food to feed everyone as it is, but no, feck em right?

    What a pathetic and disgusting attempt at a strawman


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Is it not a pretty much accepted fact though, that a vegan diet is much healthier than any other?

    Depends entirely on the person, some it may work for some it won't, there is no one perfect diet to fit every human being.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    On a vaguely related note, that trolling campaign by the national dairy council is amusing.

    You can't make a complaint about it anymore as they've had so many complaints already.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Eathrin wrote: »
    Livestock covers 45% of global land. I'm sure some of it would be suitable for crop production.
    Absolutely! Lets plough up all that meadow biodiversity and plant mile after mile of monoculture.
    Eathrin wrote: »
    I'd agree with that to an extent, but my question was as to why it is not actually possible to be a healthy vegan if one can be a healthy vegetarian.

    Because a vegetarian diet includes things like milk, eggs, and cheese, all of which are great sources of proteins and vitamins (such as B12) that are absent in a vegan diet.

    Let me put it this way: I could go out tomorrow and buy 5 acres of land, plant vegetables, and get a goat and a few chickens, maybe a pair of dexter cows, and I would be able to live very happily off of all that I farmed within that area. That is not possible if I attempted to live as a vegan on the same area of land. I would be malnourished in short order because it's simply not a sustainable diet without dependence on foreign imports and synthetic supplements.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    The combination of snapback cap and man bun make it hard for me to take that chap seriously.

    Are you mixing him up with someone else? I can't remember him ever having a man bun.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,494 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    kylith wrote: »
    Let me put it this way: I could go out tomorrow and buy 5 acres of land, plant vegetables, and get a goat and a few chickens, maybe a pair of dexter cows, and I would be able to live very happily off of all that I farmed within that area. That is not possible if I attempted to live as a vegan on the same area of land. I would be malnourished in short order because it's simply not a sustainable diet without dependence on foreign imports and synthetic supplements.
    This is an important aspect of both typical vegan and vegetarian diets that is often overlooked. In order to make both diets in any way interesting and varied, you have to import an awful lot of exotic vegetables, seeds, nuts etc. that either won't grow in our climate at all or if it did would need to be grown in heated greenhouses. This has an energy impact too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭Eathrin


    kylith wrote: »
    Let me put it this way: I could go out tomorrow and buy 5 acres of land, plant vegetables, and get a goat and a few chickens, maybe a pair of dexter cows, and I would be able to live very happily off of all that I farmed within that area. That is not possible if I attempted to live as a vegan on the same area of land. I would be malnourished in short order because it's simply not a sustainable diet without dependence on foreign imports and synthetic supplements.

    I'd argue that you've mad a massive error in your assumption there, in that the average person consumes far far more meat, dairy and eggs than you would be able to farm for yourself there.

    Commercial farming is definitely necessary to satisfy a modern person's dietary requirements. It's what we farm that has to change.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Alun wrote: »
    This is an important aspect of both typical vegan and vegetarian diets that is often overlooked. In order to make both diets in any way interesting and varied, you have to import an awful lot of exotic vegetables, seeds, nuts etc. that either won't grow in our climate at all or if it did would need to be grown in heated greenhouses. This has an energy impact too.

    Not just an energy impact. The quinoa explosion in the west has priced the people who have depended on it for centuries out of the market leading to malnutrition and, ironically, a higher level of meat eating. And not just meat; low-quality, cheap meat raised in battery conditions or with inadequate veterinary care.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,553 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I don't overly care what Lewis Hamilton eats and his vegan or non vegan diet is probably very healthy. However he really isn't the sharpest tool in the box. I found it very amusing when he started explaining how is vegan diet much better for the environment and how that influenced his decision. The same man is constantly travelling around in a private jet.

    And yes I am a bitter Ferrari fan...

    His tax strategy to buy and run that jet has cost how many millions to public service such as healthcare and environment protection. He doesnt care about the welfare of people, animals etc as much as he claims to. He does care alot about his bank balance though


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Eathrin wrote: »
    I'd argue that you've mad a massive error in your assumption there, in that the average person consumes far far more meat, dairy and eggs than you would be able to farm for yourself there.

    Commercial farming is definitely necessary to satisfy a modern person's dietary requirements. It's what we farm that has to change.

    I don't know the figures as I havent' worked it out, but I do know that the dozen hens my brother keeps produce so many eggs he now gives them away to neighbours, and a dexter cow will produce 10-12 litres of milk daily. So at ~5 eggs per hen per week plus 10l of milk per cow per day my problem in that regard would appear to be one of oversupply.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭Eathrin


    kylith wrote: »
    Absolutely! Lets plough up all that meadow biodiversity and plant mile after mile of monoculture.

    Did we not lose an enormous amount of woodland to agriculture in the past few centuries? It was probably more diverse back in the day.

    Also as I've said before, we really wouldn't need all that much cropland to make up for the loss. Livestock farming, as I've said before, is a terribly inefficient use of land, water and food.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭Eathrin


    kylith wrote: »
    I don't know the figures as I havent' worked it out, but I do know that the dozen hens my brother keeps produce so many eggs he now gives them away to neighbours, and a dexter cow will produce 10-12 litres of milk daily. So at ~5 eggs per hen per week plus 10l of milk per cow per day my problem in that regard would appear to be one of oversupply.

    So where's the meat?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Eathrin wrote: »
    Did we not lose an enormous amount of woodland to agriculture in the past few centuries? It was probably more diverse back in the day.

    Also as I've said before, we really wouldn't need all that much cropland to make up for the loss. Livestock farming, as I've said before, is a terribly inefficient use of land, water and food.

    So, your plan is to make it even less biodiverse, because last I checked you can't grow soy plantations in forests.
    Eathrin wrote: »
    So where's the meat?
    I did say I could live on a vegetarian diet sustainably.

    However, I'd probably eat the old chickens. Waste not, want not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Eathrin wrote: »
    So where's the meat?

    You need to start fully reading peoples post's, the example was quite obviously comparing vegetarianism to veganism and how veganism in comparison is unsustainable without outside help


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Lewis Hamilton went vegan after watching a documentary called What The Health
    Do you think he has put his health at risk by not eating any meat or dairy?
    ...

    Maybe he just realised he couldn't get meat cheaper by diverting it through Isle of Man.

    I wonder if someone showed him a documentary about paying taxes might he, you know, pay some more of them ?
    Ronin247 wrote: »
    Personally I think Mr Hamilton is an obnoxious little boll1x and couldn't care less what he does.

    Nail on head.
    Wibbs wrote: »
    Not far off. Long gone are the days of regular mayhem, death and injury in F1. I remember watching it with my dad as a kid in the 70's and crashes and fiery death, or in the case of Niki Laura, fiery death? Fcuk you, were a regular occurrence. Oh and overtaking and drivers with panache and character, not macrobiotic eating midgets with a soulectomy, where pit lane comms are often ore interesting than the processions races. Ditto of the days of Group B rallying, where the men were men - or women like Michelle Mouton, a giant of a driver. Ovaries of steel - and cars were dangerous.

    I agree most motor sports, especially F1, have become processions where the biggest money is assured the winner.

    Michelle was a damn good one who drove a beast of a car, the Audi Quattro, and nearly won the World Championship.

    BTW Niki Lauda didn't die just fried a little.
    Actually speaking of Lauda, he was one of the first to introduce the very healthy lifestyle, the exact opposite to his one time adversary James Hunt.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    kylith wrote: »
    I'd think that dairy and eggs would be seen as better than eating meat. After all neither causes any harm to the animal.

    Completely untrue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Effects wrote: »
    Completely untrue.

    Go on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭Eathrin


    kylith wrote: »
    So, your plan is to make it even less biodiverse, because last I checked you can't grow soy plantations in forests.


    I did say I could live on a vegetarian diet sustainably.

    However, I'd probably eat the old chickens. Waste not, want not.
    VinLieger wrote: »
    You need to start fully reading peoples post's, the example was quite obviously comparing vegetarianism to veganism and how veganism in comparison is unsustainable without outside help

    Apologies, my mistake.
    And eating old chickens, sure, that's sustainable.

    Also, I don't have any great plans to cover Ireland in soybean. As I said before, I'm not vegan. I'm not arguing that we should be vegans unconditionally either, more exploring the arguments.

    I think you are ingnoring facts Kylith. I don't think you understand the scale of the land inefficiency.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Eathrin wrote: »
    Apologies, my mistake.
    And eating old chickens, sure, that's sustainable.

    Also, I don't have any great plans to cover Ireland in soybean. As I said before, I'm not vegan. I'm not arguing that we should be vegans unconditionally either, more exploring the arguments.

    I think you are ingnoring facts Kylith. I don't think you understand the scale of the land inefficiency.

    Well, old chicken whose laying days are behind them are just going to die anyway. What else should I do with them? Let them go to waste? As for sustainability; you can use chickens to make more chickens, you know.

    I am open to being educated about the scale of this land inefficiency, so go ahead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    Wibbs wrote: »
    The vast majority of intelligent animals are meat eaters. The plant eaters are almost always food for same. A bit "trolly"? Yeah, but not far off the truth. Humans became what we are because of a switch from a near exclusively plant based diet to one that included meat. Otherwise we would have remained an odd short arsed bipedal ape with big flat teeth and a fat belly in Africa.

    Plenty of disagreement around that point. Other scientists argue that it was glucose from root vegetables and tubers that contributed to human development, facilitated by the discovery of cooking allowing us to eat these foods in greater amounts.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    RWCNT wrote: »
    Plenty of disagreement around that point. Other scientists argue that it was glucose from root vegetables and tubers that contributed to human development, facilitated by the discovery of cooking allowing us to eat these foods in greater amounts.

    Cool. Any link to that?

    Everything I've read on the subject to now has been pretty unanimous that it was the greater caloric value in meat that enabled the brain growth necessary to work out how to cook anything in the first place.

    I do somewhat disagree with Wibbs' point that the majority of intelligent animals are meat eaters. They tend not to be exclusively meat eaters, though it does take a lot more smarts to catch a gazelle than it does to sneak up on a piece of grass, they tend to be omnivores.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Hande hoche!


    Effects wrote: »
    You can't make a complaint about it anymore as they've had so many complaints already.
    That makes sense. You can say lots about vegans but you can't accuse them of lacking passion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    whatever happened to a pint of champagne and a cigarette before a race?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,183 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    RWCNT wrote: »
    Plenty of disagreement around that point. Other scientists argue that it was glucose from root vegetables and tubers that contributed to human development, facilitated by the discovery of cooking allowing us to eat these foods in greater amounts.
    And they base that on out of date ideas around the timeline of human control of fire. Controlled fire and cooking has solid evidence in the mid Palaeolithic(circa 500,000 years ago) and extremely scant evidence for it beforehand. Widespread use of fire and cooking is later again. Even some early Neandertal groups show little to no evidence of it. The problem with all this is that human brains had been steadily growing bigger for longer than we had cooking and the ability to exploit the carbs and other nutrients from root vegetables*.

    The very first human tools going back millions of years are simple cleavers to break open the long bones of animals to extract the marrow. One could even argue the majority of stone tools up to the Neolithic are used to exploit animal resources(meat, leather etc). For the majority of our history humans have been omnivorous apex predators.

    This lifestyle and diet even helped us migrate across the planet. Different environments have different flora and plants can be poisonous or low in uncooked nutrients so eat the wrong thing and you can die, however animals are pretty much animals wherever you go, so if it's alive and moving you can eat it. A tiger might be used to one type of prey animal in say India, but drop one in Cork and it'll find things to eat. A herbivore that is used to eating a range of local plants in one area is going to be in trouble in another.

    Now of course humans have another killer app and that is our omnivore side. We've probably the widest range of foods we can eat to survive than any other animal other than maybe rats, but this doesn't mean we're not primarily carnivores. The usual vegan "proofs" that we're not, such as length of gut and teeth and lack of claws are bogus. We don't need them as we externalised those carnivore requirements with tools(and cooking). We don't need huge canines because we had knives, we don't need strong stomach acid because cooking pre-digests meat(though we can eat it raw, the main issue there being parasite risks).




    *above ground veggies barely figure at all, as the vast majority are man made in the forms we eat them today.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,451 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    Is Formula One vegan?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Meat and eggs give cancer ?

    Good thing I dont eat them

    (takes a slow long drag on a cigerette)

    No cancer for me then


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭Eathrin


    kylith wrote: »
    Well, old chicken whose laying days are behind them are just going to die anyway. What else should I do with them? Let them go to waste? As for sustainability; you can use chickens to make more chickens, you know.

    I am open to being educated about the scale of this land inefficiency, so go ahead.

    I wasn't being sarcastic. I was agreeing with you.
    Regarding land efficiency,

    Agriculture consumes about 70% of fresh water worldwide; for example, approximately 1000 liters (L) of water are required to produce 1 kilogram (kg) of cereal grain, and 43,000 L to produce 1 kg of beef.

    https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/54/10/909/230205

    Experts estimates that we are losing 137 plant, animal and insect species every single day due to rainforest deforestation.
    Of course, we don't have rainforest in Ireland but we should take a worldview of these things.
    The primary reason for rainforest destruction, to my knowledge, is to create new farmland for livestock to satisfy meat demands.
    We clear over 1 acre of rainforest every second....

    http://www.savetheamazon.org/rainforeststats.htm

    Soybeans can be produced at 52. 5 bushels per acre x 60 lbs. per bushel = 3,150 dry soybeans per acre
    Soybeans protein content (dry) is 163.44 grams per pound
    The protein content per acre of soybeans is 163.44 g x 3,150 lb. = 514,836 g per acre

    Beef can be produced at 205 pounds per acre
    Beef protein content (raw) is 95.34 grams per pound
    The protein content per acre of beef is 95.34 g x 205 lb. = 19,544.7 g per acre


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,349 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    Animals taste too good to stop eating.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭Eathrin


    kylith wrote: »
    Go on

    I presume they mean that the production of milk and eggs in industrial farms do indeed cause animals distress. Better, yes I'd agree with, but it is certainly not correct to say it does no harm.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Eathrin wrote: »
    I wasn't being sarcastic. I was agreeing with you.
    Regarding land efficiency,

    Agriculture consumes about 70% of fresh water worldwide; for example, approximately 1000 liters (L) of water are required to produce 1 kilogram (kg) of cereal grain, and 43,000 L to produce 1 kg of beef.

    https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/54/10/909/230205

    Experts estimates that we are losing 137 plant, animal and insect species every single day due to rainforest deforestation.
    Of course, we don't have rainforest in Ireland but we should take a worldview of these things.
    The primary reason for rainforest destruction, to my knowledge, is to create new farmland for livestock to satisfy meat demands.
    We clear over 1 acre of rainforest every second....
    Sorry, I read that as sarcasm :o

    Regarding deforestation; the four main things driving it are beef, soybeans, palm oil, and logging for timber.

    Of course, we need to take a global view of these things, and eating less meat will certainly help, as will ensuring that you buy local produce as much as possible. There's no need to buy Argentinian beef when Irish is world-class.

    However, as I've said upthread, it's impossible to have a complete vegan diet without leaning heavily on foreign imports, such as soy and quinoa - the impact of which on the indigenous people I've already mentioned.
    Eathrin wrote: »
    I presume they mean that the production of milk and eggs in industrial farms do indeed cause animals distress. Better, yes I'd agree with, but it is certainly not correct to say it does no harm.

    Huge advances have been made in the treatment and housing of chickens, and the standard of welfare for Irish cattle is very good; we even have farms where the cattle can decide themselves when they need to be milked.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    kylith wrote: »
    Cool. Any link to that?

    Everything I've read on the subject to now has been pretty unanimous that it was the greater caloric value in meat that enabled the brain growth necessary to work out how to cook anything in the first place.

    I do somewhat disagree with Wibbs' point that the majority of intelligent animals are meat eaters. They tend not to be exclusively meat eaters, though it does take a lot more smarts to catch a gazelle than it does to sneak up on a piece of grass, they tend to be omnivores.

    I didn't look into it very deeply, but the study I saw referred to before was -

    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/682587

    I'd heard it cited in a video ages ago and had a brief look through it, on second glance it seems to be saying that meat eating kick-started the development of our brains but that starch played an important role in the development that took place thereafter.

    Informative stuff from Wibbs, cheers.


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