Lewis Hamilton went vegan after watching this documentary

Hande hoche!

Effects wrote: »

You can't make a complaint about it anymore as they've had so many complaints already.

That makes sense. You can say lots about vegans but you can't accuse them of lacking passion.

SEPT 23 1989

whatever happened to a pint of champagne and a cigarette before a race?

Wibbs

RWCNT wrote: »

Plenty of disagreement around that point. Other scientists argue that it was glucose from root vegetables and tubers that contributed to human development, facilitated by the discovery of cooking allowing us to eat these foods in greater amounts.

And they base that on out of date ideas around the timeline of human control of fire. Controlled fire and cooking has solid evidence in the mid Palaeolithic(circa 500,000 years ago) and extremely scant evidence for it beforehand. Widespread use of fire and cooking is later again. Even some early Neandertal groups show little to no evidence of it. The problem with all this is that human brains had been steadily growing bigger for longer than we had cooking and the ability to exploit the carbs and other nutrients from root vegetables*.

The very first human tools going back millions of years are simple cleavers to break open the long bones of animals to extract the marrow. One could even argue the majority of stone tools up to the Neolithic are used to exploit animal resources(meat, leather etc). For the majority of our history humans have been omnivorous apex predators.

This lifestyle and diet even helped us migrate across the planet. Different environments have different flora and plants can be poisonous or low in uncooked nutrients so eat the wrong thing and you can die, however animals are pretty much animals wherever you go, so if it's alive and moving you can eat it. A tiger might be used to one type of prey animal in say India, but drop one in Cork and it'll find things to eat. A herbivore that is used to eating a range of local plants in one area is going to be in trouble in another.

Now of course humans have another killer app and that is our omnivore side. We've probably the widest range of foods we can eat to survive than any other animal other than maybe rats, but this doesn't mean we're not primarily carnivores. The usual vegan "proofs" that we're not, such as length of gut and teeth and lack of claws are bogus. We don't need them as we externalised those carnivore requirements with tools(and cooking). We don't need huge canines because we had knives, we don't need strong stomach acid because cooking pre-digests meat(though we can eat it raw, the main issue there being parasite risks).




*above ground veggies barely figure at all, as the vast majority are man made in the forms we eat them today.

Hermy

Is Formula One vegan?

Sin City

Meat and eggs give cancer ?

Good thing I dont eat them

(takes a slow long drag on a cigerette)

No cancer for me then

Eathrin

kylith wrote: »

Well, old chicken whose laying days are behind them are just going to die anyway. What else should I do with them? Let them go to waste? As for sustainability; you can use chickens to make more chickens, you know.

I am open to being educated about the scale of this land inefficiency, so go ahead.

I wasn't being sarcastic. I was agreeing with you.
Regarding land efficiency,

Agriculture consumes about 70% of fresh water worldwide; for example, approximately 1000 liters (L) of water are required to produce 1 kilogram (kg) of cereal grain, and 43,000 L to produce 1 kg of beef.

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/54/10/909/230205

Experts estimates that we are losing 137 plant, animal and insect species every single day due to rainforest deforestation.
Of course, we don't have rainforest in Ireland but we should take a worldview of these things.
The primary reason for rainforest destruction, to my knowledge, is to create new farmland for livestock to satisfy meat demands.
We clear over 1 acre of rainforest every second....

http://www.savetheamazon.org/rainforeststats.htm

Soybeans can be produced at 52. 5 bushels per acre x 60 lbs. per bushel = 3,150 dry soybeans per acre
Soybeans protein content (dry) is 163.44 grams per pound
The protein content per acre of soybeans is 163.44 g x 3,150 lb. = 514,836 g per acre

Beef can be produced at 205 pounds per acre
Beef protein content (raw) is 95.34 grams per pound
The protein content per acre of beef is 95.34 g x 205 lb. = 19,544.7 g per acre

super_furry

Animals taste too good to stop eating.

Eathrin

kylith wrote: »

Go on

I presume they mean that the production of milk and eggs in industrial farms do indeed cause animals distress. Better, yes I'd agree with, but it is certainly not correct to say it does no harm.

kylith

Eathrin wrote: »

I wasn't being sarcastic. I was agreeing with you.
Regarding land efficiency,

Agriculture consumes about 70% of fresh water worldwide; for example, approximately 1000 liters (L) of water are required to produce 1 kilogram (kg) of cereal grain, and 43,000 L to produce 1 kg of beef.

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/54/10/909/230205

Experts estimates that we are losing 137 plant, animal and insect species every single day due to rainforest deforestation.
Of course, we don't have rainforest in Ireland but we should take a worldview of these things.
The primary reason for rainforest destruction, to my knowledge, is to create new farmland for livestock to satisfy meat demands.
We clear over 1 acre of rainforest every second....

Sorry, I read that as sarcasm

Regarding deforestation; the four main things driving it are beef, soybeans, palm oil, and logging for timber.

Of course, we need to take a global view of these things, and eating less meat will certainly help, as will ensuring that you buy local produce as much as possible. There's no need to buy Argentinian beef when Irish is world-class.

However, as I've said upthread, it's impossible to have a complete vegan diet without leaning heavily on foreign imports, such as soy and quinoa - the impact of which on the indigenous people I've already mentioned.

Eathrin wrote: »

I presume they mean that the production of milk and eggs in industrial farms do indeed cause animals distress. Better, yes I'd agree with, but it is certainly not correct to say it does no harm.

Huge advances have been made in the treatment and housing of chickens, and the standard of welfare for Irish cattle is very good; we even have farms where the cattle can decide themselves when they need to be milked.

RWCNT

kylith wrote: »

Cool. Any link to that?

Everything I've read on the subject to now has been pretty unanimous that it was the greater caloric value in meat that enabled the brain growth necessary to work out how to cook anything in the first place.

I do somewhat disagree with Wibbs' point that the majority of intelligent animals are meat eaters. They tend not to be exclusively meat eaters, though it does take a lot more smarts to catch a gazelle than it does to sneak up on a piece of grass, they tend to be omnivores.

I didn't look into it very deeply, but the study I saw referred to before was -

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/682587

I'd heard it cited in a video ages ago and had a brief look through it, on second glance it seems to be saying that meat eating kick-started the development of our brains but that starch played an important role in the development that took place thereafter.

Informative stuff from Wibbs, cheers.

Wibbs

Eathrin wrote: »

Soybeans can be produced at 52. 5 bushels per acre x 60 lbs. per bushel = 3,150 dry soybeans per acre
Soybeans protein content (dry) is 163.44 grams per pound
The protein content per acre of soybeans is 163.44 g x 3,150 lb. = 514,836 g per acre

I still wouldn't touch soy products with a ten foot bargepole. Too many strong hints of issues with pseudo oestrogens having hormonal effects, particularly in men. Never mind that Asians who have been eating this stuff for thousands of years don't eat nearly so much of it as we've started to in the West and in a different(fermented) form. It's also added to so much of our processed food. It's fed to livestock because it's cheap and fattens them up quickly and given the increase of obesity in the west and declining fertility, Soy? No thank you.

kylith wrote: »

Sorry, I read that as sarcasm

Regarding deforestation; the four main things driving it are beef, soybeans, palm oil, and logging for timber.

And don't forget water consumption K. Cotton is a very thirsty crop and bad for the environment(hemp would be the far better bet but...) and Almond milk the diet hipsters new choice? It takes over a gallon of fresh water to grow a single nut. Green? My hoop.

Of course, we need to take a global view of these things, and eating less meat will certainly help, as will ensuring that you buy local produce as much as possible. There's no need to buy Argentinian beef when Irish is world-class.

+1000. We should be growing as much as possible locally. Ireland has a relatively small population and could pretty much feed itself, but if people insist on eating "exotic" and not so exotic foods flown half way around the world then their green credentials aren't worth jack. When you see spuds in Irish supermarkets coming from Israel and Holland flown over on planes you have to wonder.

RWCNT wrote: »

I'd heard it cited in a video ages ago and had a brief look through it, on second glance it seems to be saying that meat eating kick-started the development of our brains but that starch played an important role in the development that took place thereafter.

Oh root veggies were important food sources alright RW, but they came along later. Depended on local climatic conditions too.

Also watch this if you want to be convinced 9/11 was an inside job

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTbIu8Zeqp0

endacl

Wibbs wrote: »

Otherwise we would have remained an odd short arsed bipedal ape with big flat teeth and a fat belly in Africa.

I think I know that guy. Except for the ‘Africa’ bit.

This part is good

https://youtu.be/wIONctjKPzc?t=1011

Eating an egg a day is the same as smoking five cigarettes

endacl

Deleted User wrote: »

This part is good

https://youtu.be/wIONctjKPzc?t=1011

Eating an egg a day is the same as smoking five cigarettes

About as true as ‘eating a cigarette a day is the same as smoking five eggs’.

kylith

endacl wrote: »

About as true as ‘eating a cigarette a day is the same as smoking five eggs’.

I'm glad you can do it that way, cos those eggs are a bastard to keep lit.

I have it on in the background. The amount of time he rings up websites asking them why they haven't got the dangers displayed, only for the website to unable to answer the question. He thinks the silence after asking an obtuse question to some random customer care operative is proving his point. I think its the fourth time he has done this in 30 minutes.

https://youtu.be/wIONctjKPzc?t=1863

kylith

Deleted User wrote: »

I have it on in the background. The amount of time he rings up websites asking them why they haven't got the dangers displayed, only for the website to unable to answer the question. He thinks the silence after asking an obtuse question to some random customer care operative is proving his point. I think its the fourth time he has done this in 30 minutes.

https://youtu.be/wIONctjKPzc?t=1863

Always bugs me when they do that on programmes; call customer care and ask how they make whatever's inside. Customer care is only trained on what to do if your complaint is that the tin of beans you bought is actually full of spaghetti hoops.

sbsquarepants

Wibbs wrote: »

an odd short arsed bipedal ape with big flat teeth and a fat belly.

I've brought a few of these home in my time - I never thought to ask were they vegetarians though. (There's no meat in jagermeister I presume:D)

sbsquarepants

kylith wrote: »

Always bugs me when they do that on programmes; call customer care and ask how they make whatever's inside. Customer care is only trained on what to do if your complaint is that the tin of beans you bought is actually full of spaghetti hoops.

Food unwrapped is brutal for it. How the hell is the girl who answers the phones going to know the ins and outs of pineapple production, or where exactly the sugar in ketchup comes from!

kylith

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Food unwrapped is brutal for it. How the hell is the girl who answers the phones going to know the ins and outs of pineapple production, or where exactly the sugar in ketchup comes from!

Exactly the one I was thinking of! What the feck does Mary answering the phone in Margate know about the process of growing Israeli artichokes?

ElKavo

Wibbs wrote: »

I still wouldn't touch soy products with a ten foot bargepole. Too many strong hints of issues with pseudo oestrogens having hormonal effects, particularly in men. Never mind that Asians who have been eating this stuff for thousands of years don't eat nearly so much of it as we've started to in the West and in a different(fermented) form. It's also added to so much of our processed food. It's fed to livestock because it's cheap and fattens them up quickly and given the increase of obesity in the west and declining fertility, Soy? No thank you.

Any evidence to support that? I would say that making statements like that without having anything to back it up is pretty reckless.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20378106

Soy consumption has also been linked to lower rates of prostate cancer, unlike milk

Also Vegan men typically have higher levels of testosterone Link & Link 2 than Meat eaters and Vegetarians. Along with the lower prostate cancer risk, I can't see a down side.

On a side note since I became Vegan and consume a plant based diet I have found it far easier to build muscle and loose fat without having to consume huge amounts of calories, like I had to do while I was on an omni diet. But hey maybe that's just me. I also sleep like a baby and my libido is much higher than it was previously. Which in fairness my OH might not be too happy about LOL #Sexpest

And don't forget water consumption K. Cotton is a very thirsty crop and bad for the environment(hemp would be the far better bet but...) and Almond milk the diet hipsters new choice? It takes over a gallon of fresh water to grow a single nut. Green? My hoop.

Cotton is a very thirsty crop, Hemp would be far more beneficial as a crop for a whole host of uses, it grows quicker too. Although what cotton has to do with Vegans specifically i'm not sure. There are a myriad of other plants that can be grown in Ireland that would be suitable for "milks" Hemp again being a great choice.

+1000. We should be growing as much as possible locally. Ireland has a relatively small population and could pretty much feed itself, but if people insist on eating "exotic" and not so exotic foods flown half way around the world then their green credentials aren't worth jack. When you see spuds in Irish supermarkets coming from Israel and Holland flown over on planes you have to wonder.

Agree 100%, but you can grow quiona in Ireland...
http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/irish-farms-take-part-in-quinoa-trials/
And it is much better for the soil too. There are loads of crops that can be grown here that would be suitable for everyone to eat not just Vegans. Crops that would be far less damaging to the environment better for health and obviously would not exploit animals.

_Dara_

I watched about twenty minutes of that documentary and could not believe how bad it was. Full of pseudoscience and dubious citations eg. personal blogs rather than scientific studies.

Mooooo

It's true we can grow most crops here however due to the length of the growing season it's harvesting crops is the issue. Crops ripen in the autumn and rainfall increases here. Also due to our wetter climate crops are under greater pressure from fungi etc. Not all crops reach the quality for food production, its the rest that goes towards animal feed. Grass is about the best thing we can grow here in the majority of land, most of my land here is too wet to grow anything else, whereas livestock can be managed and silage saved around the weather most years.

_Dara_

Wibbs wrote: »

Because E people have found through experience that they usually are acts of preachy pretentiousness, with a side order of holier than thou ballsology thrown in.

Ah, I dunno. I have a few friends that I didn’t know were vegetarian until long after I met them. And one of them told me that people are often immediately defensive and uppity towards her when she does say she is a vegetarian even if it only comes up incidentally. Say if she turns down a few appetisers on the trot at a party and someone asks her why and says it’s because they all contained meat, people have got thick with her over it. Even though she didn’t make a big deal about it and just answered when she was asked. Some veggies and vegan can be preachy but people can arsey towards them a lot too unprovoked.

Anyone who harps on about what they eat is annoying, be they omnivore, vegetarian or vegan.

_Dara_

kylith wrote: »

I'd think that dairy and eggs would be seen as better than eating meat. After all neither causes any harm to the animal.

I’m a fully paid up omnivore but I’m not at all convinced that intensive dairy production doesn’t involve a little cruelty. I ignore the output of organisations such as PETA but I am interested in animal welfare as an omnivore.

AMKC

Fair play to him. Too much dairy is bad for you do just like everything else. I know people who could drink it but don't as they prefer soya milk and feel better for it. I used to drink lots of it but also do not know but that's a different story. I do love my meat do nothing like a nice pork or lamp chop or a yummy steak.

Wibbs

ElKavo wrote: »

Any evidence to support that? I would say that making statements like that without having anything to back it up is pretty reckless.

"Reckless"? Bit dramatic no? It's not as if someone not eating soya is going to be injured by it. Never mind that it was my personal opinion.

Soy consumption has also been linked to lower rates of prostate cancer, unlike milk

Wouldn't surprise me. I personally tend to avoid milk save for a drop in tea. The thoughts of drinking a glass of it makes me a bit ill. I'm weird mind you.

Also Vegan men typically have higher levels of testosterone Link & Link 2 than Meat eaters and Vegetarians. Along with the lower prostate cancer risk, I can't see a down side.

Maybe read your own links? One says and I quote: No differences in hormone levels were found between meat-eaters and lacto-ovo-vegetarians, suggesting that vegetarian diets may not alter prostate cancer risk, but the relatively low IGF-I levels in vegans might reduce their risk of prostate cancer. the other is entirely to go with IGF in women. Neither claim higher free testosterone(the important bit) in men on a vegan diet. It does claim that vegans have higher test, but this is offset by hormone bonders.

_Dara_ wrote: »

Ah, I dunno. I have a few friends that I didn’t know were vegetarian until long after I met them. And one of them told me that people are often immediately defensive and uppity towards her when she does say she is a vegetarian even if it only comes up incidentally. Say if she turns down a few appetisers on the trot at a party and someone asks her why and says it’s because they all contained meat, people have got thick with her over it. Even though she didn’t make a big deal about it and just answered when she was asked. Some veggies and vegan can be preachy but people can arsey towards them a lot too unprovoked.

Anyone who harps on about what they eat is annoying, be they omnivore, vegetarian or vegan.

Oh sure. I have personally found vegetarians to be the least "vocal" with vegans and I love meat I do types the most vocal.

gozunda

Eathrin wrote: »

Did we not lose an enormous amount of woodland to agriculture in the past few centuries? It was probably more diverse back in the day.

Also as I've said before, we really wouldn't need all that much cropland to make up for the loss. Livestock farming, as I've said before, is a terribly inefficient use of land, water and food.

I suspect you have read some rather generalised accounts regarding agricultural production and woodland clearance.

Firstly - woodland in Ireland was largely cleared by early settlers in Ireland from the early bronze age onwards with most of the natural woodland cleared by the middle of the 17 century.

The land was cleared to cater for the needs of an increasing rural population by the 1800's.

The information you have presented above is at best inaccurate. I have seen this stuff copied again and again without reference to relevant (country specific) agricultural data and it makes for less than convincing (vegan) propaganda.

Regarding the issue of making up the shortfall from livestock farming - this is not a linear calculation.

Crops suitable for Irish conditions such as barely and oats produce a significantly smaller volume of edible material than let's say beef or other animal protein on a weight for weight basis.

Crops are by definition an extensive form of agricultural produce and require relatively large amount of land for their production. In addition for the purposes of organic production signicificant amounts of land needs to be left fallow in rotation to maintain soil nutrient levels and maintain fertility. To produce only crop based material would require more not less land pressed into intensive production.

In Ireland much of our land is not suitable or is at best marginal for crop growth. This matter is also constrained by our climatic conditions which make crop production conditions extremly difficult.

I really don't care who "said it before" the statement below concerning livestock production being inefficient is grossly incorrect.

You said:

Livestock farming, as I've said before, is a terribly inefficient use of land, water and food.

First of all in our climate and topography -livestock farming makes use of large areas of the country both upland and lowland which are not suitable and will never be for growing commercial food crops.

Most 'food' fed to livestock is in fact the waste products of the human food industry. These waste products are by definition non human good grade waste products that would otherwise go to waste or dumped.

As for water- In Ireland a significant proportion of livestock such as cattle and sheep obtain a significant amount of their feed requirements from grazing of what is in effect natural type vegetation viz. grass and grass products such as hay and silage. The important fact here is that Irish grassland is not artificially watered. Repeat that is zero irrigation for grassland in Ireland. None. Nada. No irrigation. No water involved.

Now some of your statement may be true for some lot fed beef in the US or other agricultural production methods in some other countries but it does not hold here.

Please do your own research and do not I repeat do not simply copy and paste what is in effect inaccurate and misleading copy detailed as 'fact'.

Vela

gozunda wrote: »

Nothing wrong in choosing a plant based diet as preference - what I can't stand is the stench of sanctimony from extreme vegan preachers.

I've been a vegetarian for 22 years, and a vegan for 8 of them. Nothing pisses me off more than the whole militant vegan bull****. I made a choice for myself, just like people make their own choices every day, and I couldn't give two fcuks what anyone else does or doesn't eat! I've often known people for ages before they even realised I was a vegan.

What I'm saying is, we're not all that annoying