The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

Water John · 21-11-2017 12:15am #1

Katie Hannon says Francis Fitzgerald had some awareness of the Commissioner's legal team's attack strategy around the time it actually happened. Not a year later as we have been led to believe.

Francis Fitzgerald, Charlie Flanagan and Leo Varadkar need to come clean, in the Dail.

Seth Brundle · 21-11-2017 12:53am

Link for the above...
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/tánaiste-knew-of-ex-garda-commissioner-s-legal-strategy-says-department-1.3299072?mode=amp

blanch152 · 21-11-2017 12:53am

Odhinn wrote: »

A garda makes a complaint. The complaint dissappears into some parallel dimension while the senior Garda mentioned goes for and gets a promotion. Some form of quantum entaglement ensures that, promotion over, the complaint re-appears.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1119/921265-gardai-whistleblower/

Bare faced cheek of the hightest order.

It's fairly evident that a clear out is needed across the force. Whether anyone has the testicular fortitude required is another question.

It would be very wrong for an interview board to be informed about unproven allegations about a candidate for promotion. Everyone is entitled to innocence until proven guilty.

It is not like they are politicians in the public eye.

Esel · 21-11-2017 12:58am

blanch152 wrote: »

It would be very wrong for an interview board to be informed about unproven allegations about a candidate for promotion. Everyone is entitled to innocence until proven guilty.

It is not like they are politicians in the public eye.

As opposed to hearing it on the grapevine? Possibility of them being unaware is slim, imo.

Odhinn · 21-11-2017 1:09am

Water John wrote: »

Katie Hannon says Francis Fitzgerald had some awareness of the Commissioner's legal team's attack strategy around the time it actually happened. Not a year later as we have been led to believe.

Francis Fitzgerald, Charlie Flanagan and Leo Varadkar need to come clean, in the Dail.

*....the sound of excrement, hitting a fan with some speed.....*

"The Taoiseach's account of when Tánaiste Frances Fitzgerald first learned about the legal strategy to attack the credibility and motives of Sgt Maurice McCabe at the O'Higgins Commission has been corrected by the Department of Justice.

It has now been confirmed that Ms Fitzgerald was informed about the controversial legal strategy pursued by former Garda Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan in May 2015 - a full year before the issue came into the public domain."
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1120/921573-leo-varadkar-frances-fitzgerald/

No separation between civil servants, politicians and the Gardai there, a problem which still needs addressing.

Of course there is now the question over why, when the minister was informed of the tactic to smear garda mccabe, did she not subsequently ask why the testimony from two gardai to this end was withdrawn when garda mccabe produced a recording of the conversation, which saw a garda of senior rank's (a chief superintendent) word effectively undermined, and why she didn't ask for this to be investigated.

(long and detailed link)
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/08/27/the-smearing-continued/

Odhinn · 21-11-2017 1:11am

Esel wrote: »

As opposed to hearing it on the grapevine? Possibility of them being unaware is slim, imo.

Gardai, some of them, are no strangers to the concept of "mental reservation".

emo72 · 21-11-2017 1:12am

fitzgerald is a goner.

edit... just seen claire byrne. she was made aware "that something was up", but didnt ask what. you are the fuc..king justice minister. why are you not making yourself aware of all the facts? shouldnt you be making yourself of al the facts to get to the bottom of it? or are you just a career politician in it for your own benefit? no need to reply. i know the answer.

listermint · 21-11-2017 9:24am

Water John wrote: »

Katie Hannon says Francis Fitzgerald had some awareness of the Commissioner's legal team's attack strategy around the time it actually happened. Not a year later as we have been led to believe.

Francis Fitzgerald, Charlie Flanagan and Leo Varadkar need to come clean, in the Dail.

Article was on the journal has since been removed

mikep · 21-11-2017 9:45am

Has Leo put enough distance between himself and Frances Fitzgerald as according to the report on morning ireland, when he mentioned this in the Dail twice last week he said he had spoken with Frances before answering..

sword1 · 21-11-2017 10:14am

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Two commisoners gone, one.justice minister gone, one more looking extremelly likely to fall on their sword.

Happens under the tenure of the party of law and order.

How much will their pensions cost though. It would be more punishment and value for the taxpayer if they were made stay. There needs to be clauses put in place in the pension that if they do a bad job they suffer instead of being rewarded.

Water John · 21-11-2017 10:40am

No doubt, alarm bells went off in her head, when she heard or read McCabe's taped rebuttal. That she did not act and order an inquiry by GSOC or some outside person, stinks. and is a resigning matter.
Is she, on the record as saying, the first she knew of it was, a year later?

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2017 10:43am

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Two commisoners gone, one.justice minister gone, one more looking extremelly likely to fall on their sword.

Happens under the tenure of the party of law and order.

Is there another example of an Irish government so incompetently managing an issue?
I don't know of one.

blanch152 · 21-11-2017 10:46am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is there another example of an Irish government so incompetently managing an issue?
I don't know of one.

The Bank Guarantee of 2008 by Fianna Fail is probably the most incompetent governmental decision of all time, not just in Ireland.

However, a measure of sympathy for parties in government as only those who do, fail. Those who sit on the sidelines never fail, they just carp and whinge but they never succeed in anything either. We have had our fair share of those over the years, from Neil Blaney to Mick Wallace.

Water John · 21-11-2017 10:47am

Maybe SF not dealing with sex abuse scandals is comparable.
I think most people are fed up with this obfuscation and mullarkey. People want open honest politics. Tell the truth and let the chips fall where they do.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2017 10:56am

Water John wrote: »

Maybe SF not dealing with sex abuse scandals is comparable.
I think most people are fed up with this obfuscation and mullarkey. People want open honest politics. Tell the truth and let the chips fall where they do.

SF were an 'Irish government'?

Two Garda Commissioners and a Minister gone and another facing the cliffedge and a Taoiseach having to at least correct his statements in the Dail record.

They are showing no signs of engaging in open honest politics tbh.

Hitman3000 · 21-11-2017 11:01am

blanch152 wrote:

The Bank Guarantee of 2008 by Fianna Fail is probably the most incompetent governmental decision of all time, not just in Ireland.

Didn't FG vote for said guarantee and continue to implement once assuming office?

Hitman3000 · 21-11-2017 11:02am

blanch152 wrote:

However, a measure of sympathy for parties in government as only those who do, fail. Those who sit on the sidelines never fail, they just carp and whinge but they never succeed in anything either. We have had our fair share of those over the years, from Neil Blaney to Mick Wallace.

Deflection to others as always.lol.

McMurphy · 21-11-2017 11:27am

blanch152 wrote: »

It would be very wrong for an interview board to be informed about unproven allegations about a candidate for promotion. Everyone is entitled to innocence until proven guilty.

It is not like they are politicians in the public eye.

Is this view of yours carry a blanket presumption of innocence until found gully to all politicians in Ireland, or does it only apply to politicians from certain political parties?

You were singing from a different hymn sheet only 12hrs ago.

Odhinn · 21-11-2017 2:43pm

Fitzgerald under the third degree on RTE1 just now. "unconvincing" would be the most diplomatic way of describing it.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2017 2:46pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Fitzgerald under the third degree on RTE1 just now. "unconvincing" would be the most diplomatic way of describing it.

Painful, would be my word for it.

She is toast, Leo will hang her out to dry on this I would imagine. Not that she isn't doing a fair job herself.
Her plea of innocence just implies gross incompetence.

Hitman3000 · 21-11-2017 2:50pm

FrancieBrady wrote:

She is toast, Leo will hang her out to dry on this I would imagine. Not that she isn't doing a fair job herself. Her plea of innocence just implies gross incompetence.

Going by recent history I doubt if she's toast. I fully expect all ministers including the IA and the independent FG ministers to express full confidence in her claiming it is nothing but a distraction from the important work of government. Btw has Leo corrected the Dail record yet?

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2017 2:53pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Going by recent history I doubt if she's toast. I fully expect all ministers including the IA and the independent FG ministers to express full confidence in her claiming it is nothing but a distraction from the important work of government. Btw has Leo corrected the Dail record yet?

No, he has to do it this afternoon, apparently.

Hitman3000 · 21-11-2017 2:58pm

FrancieBrady wrote:

No, he has to do it this afternoon, apparently.

Becoming a habit for FG Taoiseach aswell. Enda had to correct the record several times, conversations he had with ministers that never happened. lol.

James Brown · 21-11-2017 3:22pm

Varadkar will brazen it out. She'll be shown the back door when it dies down or when Varadkar can deflect with say, a national campaign about being nice to the elderly.
It cannot be believed that she didn't ask or was given no detail. If she lied or plumb forgot when talking to Varadkar, it does not bode well. Fianna Fail would have had them talk to an underling and Fitzgerald would have been free to give it the old, 'maybe my department knew, but I wasn't aware'.
Varadkar was in the dark and made look foolish or having a 'casual relationship with the truth' and caught out. Either way it'll be interesting to see the spin on this.

hotmail.com · 21-11-2017 4:20pm

She should have been ditched at the last cabinet reshuffle when Leo took over. So it's poor judgement on his part to keep her on, particularly as he knew how useless a minister she was.

James Brown · 21-11-2017 4:28pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

She should have been ditched at the last cabinet reshuffle when Leo took over. So it's poor judgement on his part to keep her on, particularly as he knew how useless a minister she was.

The whole affair such as Fine Gael's blind loyalty and confidence in O'Sullivan is all very confusing. There must be a lot going on behind the scenes we aren't aware of, or Fitzgerald forget she was aware of.

Rubberchikken · 21-11-2017 4:34pm

If the opposition had the guts they would bring down this government but this country's size and the incestuous nature of relationships between govt and civil servants including the Gardai is rotten and imho completely unfixable.

Odhinn · 21-11-2017 4:53pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The whole affair such as Fine Gael's blind loyalty and confidence in O'Sullivan is all very confusing. There must be a lot going on behind the scenes we aren't aware of, or Fitzgerald forget she was aware of.

It could well be the usual deference to the uniform -

'This man is one who we know is wrong, but we're limited in what we can do'
'Yes Garda, of course Garda. Do what you think best'.

Callinan was a master of that schtick, and O'Sullivan and him were extremely close as they rose through the ranks.

McMurphy · 21-11-2017 5:02pm

Rubberchikken wrote: »

If the opposition had the guts they would bring down this government but this country's size and the incestuous nature of relationships between govt and civil servants including the Gardai is rotten and imho completely unfixable.

On this.

I see Catherine Murphy has claimed she has proof that evidence she submitted to the Cregan commission, ref siteserv and IBRC has been widely leaked to third party's.

Apart from that, the estimated cost of the enquiry has jumped from €4m to €25m.

James Brown · 21-11-2017 5:22pm

Rick Shaw wrote: »

On this.

I see Catherine Murphy has claimed she has proof that evidence she submitted to the Cregan commission, ref siteserv and IBRC has been widely leaked to third party's.

Apart from that, the estimated cost of the enquiry has jumped from €4m to €25m.

Will there, can there be any accountability? Are we on a road to 'recommendations' to change policy? Very expensive road to nothing for political window dressing. Is O'Sullivan off the hook regardless or will it be accusations of 'inappropriate behaviour' with no come back.

Odhinn · 21-11-2017 6:47pm

The full transcript of Fitzgeralds train wreck of an interview -

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/frances-fitzgerald-i-had-no-involvement-in-any-legal-strategy-1.3299980?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Hitman3000 · 21-11-2017 6:55pm

Odhinn wrote:

The full transcript of Fitzgeralds train wreck of an interview -

Thanks for that. The party of law and order. What a joke. David McWilliams was right when he used the phrase "don't piss on my back and tell me it's raining". If she had any sense of honour she'd resign but she's an Irish politician they no matter what, don't resign.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2017 7:08pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Thanks for that. The party of law and order. What a joke. David McWilliams was right when he used the phrase "don't piss on my back and tell me it's raining". If she had any sense of honour she'd resign but she's an Irish politician they no matter what, don't resign.

Why would she when FF and FG are in cahoots in government.

Hitman3000 · 21-11-2017 7:18pm

FrancieBrady wrote:

Why would she when FF and FG are in cahoots in government.

I know naive of me expecting honour and integrity in our political class. Even our neighbours in the UK know when the time is up.

Muahahaha · 21-11-2017 7:35pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Thanks for that. The party of law and order. What a joke. David McWilliams was right when he used the phrase "don't piss on my back and tell me it's raining". If she had any sense of honour she'd resign but she's an Irish politician they no matter what, don't resign.

I saw it posted somewhere else today that in the history of the State only 7 TDs have ever resigned. Both astonishing and unsurprising in equal measure if true.

James Brown · 21-11-2017 7:40pm

The spin now seems to be her claiming she'd no part in trying to smear McCabe. I don't believe that's the claim. Habit of answering the question they want to hear in that cabinet.

constance tench · 21-11-2017 7:49pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Thanks for that. The party of law and order. What a joke. David McWilliams was right when he used the phrase "don't piss on my back and tell me it's raining". If she had any sense of honour she'd resign but she's an Irish politician they no matter what, don't resign.

Why should she? It's not as if she called someone a bitch or anything.

McMurphy · 21-11-2017 8:01pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The spin now seems to be her claiming she'd no part in trying to smear McCabe. I don't believe that's the claim. Habit of answering the question they want to hear in that cabinet.

In my eyes, the spin is the deflecting answer she's been giving to those asking if she was aware of a Garda strategy to smear and damage the credibility of Maurice McCabe.

"I had no involvement in any legal strategy" is how Frances answered.

No one asked if you were involved in the strategy Frances. You were asked when you first became aware of it.

Hitman3000 · 21-11-2017 8:36pm

constance tench wrote:

Why should she? It's not as if she called someone a bitch or anything.

True so much more serious to refer to a woman as a b*tch.

Water John · 21-11-2017 10:54pm

Rick Shaw, on the money. She's answering a question she wasn't asked. I doubt she was actively involved.

McMurphy · 22-11-2017 3:22pm

It now seems Frances reckons she prob did read the email regarding Maurice McCabe, but doesn't quite remember the content. (Just like spam advertising Viagra, or an Amazon price drop)

Given the nature of the email, and whom it concerned , IMO that suggests to me, she's lying, or incompetent.

Meanwhile M.M says the following.

Fianna F leader MicheMartin said the revelations of the past few days, which showed Ms Fitzgerald knew about events at the O’Higgins inquiry a full year before she had previously admitted, raised very serious questions.

Mr Martin said the then-Justice Minister had “positively acquiesced” and “become a bystander” in moves by lawyers acting for then-Garda Commissioner Nn O'Sullivan. These actions were designed to wrongly undermine the integrity and character of Sgt McCabe at a time when the Commissioner and Justice Minister were publicly praising him.

It's sickening and scary both at the same time that this is the state we live in, and how it can conspire against you when you dare to speak up.

FrancieBrady · 22-11-2017 3:25pm

Rick Shaw wrote: »

It now seems Frances reckons she prob did read the email regarding Maurice McCabe, but doesn't quite remember the content. (Just like spam advertising Viagra, or an Amazon price drop)

Given the nature of the email, and whom it concerned , IMO that suggests to me, she's lying, or incompetent.

Meanwhile M.M says the following.

It's sickening and scary both at the same time that this is the state we live in, and how it can conspire against you when you dare to speak up.

Did they say on the News at One that Leo has now had to correct the record 3 times???

aare · 22-11-2017 3:43pm

I am going to leave this here, my health is too broken to face attempting anything else.

In tandem with all of this Fitzgerald knowingly left my life in very real danger because I blew the whistle on her personal cronies in a way that did not suit her.
https://mymythbuster.wordpress.com/sending-a-message-is-more-important-than-personal-safety/

Here is how that story played out https://mymythbuster.wordpress.com/dm-reality-bites/ - within a week the McCabe story broke and I became unwilling to accept anything that has not been placed on oath, and nothing has been placed on oath.

There are other, equivalent issues but I only have the evidence of my own eyes for those, so I will not expand.

But it is common sense to ask:
If these two, totally amoral and unlawful, episodes are concurrent, what the hell else has been going on?

(I did try to take legal action, but have you ever tried to bring charges or get a solicitor to act for you when the Minister for Justice and the Garda Commissioner are in open collusion with the offender? Even with money and normal support systems and functionality it would be impossible, and I have access to none of those things.)

blanch152 · 22-11-2017 4:51pm

What does "positively acquiesced" actually mean?

https://books.google.ie/books?id=_Bc9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=%22positively+acquiesced%22&source=bl&ots=uxH7zTKPIy&sig=fE0nkENPBHZ0KRqkbm6RFJ1FoAQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH8Knvw9LXAhWFXRoKHR6ZDbwQ6AEIMDAD#v=onepage&q=%22positively%20acquiesced%22&f=false

Interesting reference here, but quite a stretch to apply it to this case.

I seem to remember Martin similarly castigating another Minister with a rarely used phrase.

James Brown · 22-11-2017 5:56pm

blanch152 wrote: »

What does "positively acquiesced" actually mean?

https://books.google.ie/books?id=_Bc9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=%22positively+acquiesced%22&source=bl&ots=uxH7zTKPIy&sig=fE0nkENPBHZ0KRqkbm6RFJ1FoAQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH8Knvw9LXAhWFXRoKHR6ZDbwQ6AEIMDAD#v=onepage&q=%22positively%20acquiesced%22&f=false

Interesting reference here, but quite a stretch to apply it to this case.

I seem to remember Martin similarly castigating another Minister with a rarely used phrase.

He's saying; She stood by and said/did nothing as a bias investigation attempted to blacken the name of a Garda whistle blower.

As a public representative it's shameful, as a Minister for Justice, it's despicable.

McMurphy · 22-11-2017 5:57pm

blanch152 wrote: »

What does "positively acquiesced" actually mean?

https://books.google.ie/books?id=_Bc9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=%22positively+acquiesced%22&source=bl&ots=uxH7zTKPIy&sig=fE0nkENPBHZ0KRqkbm6RFJ1FoAQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH8Knvw9LXAhWFXRoKHR6ZDbwQ6AEIMDAD#v=onepage&q=%22positively%20acquiesced%22&f=false

Interesting reference here, but quite a stretch to apply it to this case.

I seem to remember Martin similarly castigating another Minister with a rarely used phrase.

Acquiesced means to

to assent tacitly; submit or comply silently or without protest; agree; consent: to acquiesce halfheartedly in a business plan.

I imagine it was used in this context to refer to this part in particular.

comply silently

It has now been established that a justice minister was made aware of an attempt to smear or discredit Maurice McCabe, by false allegations of sex abuse, conspired by Martin Callinan, and continued with Noirin O'Sullivan, and she did nothing - except continue to pretend to support his actions publicly.

Yet instead of condoning it, you latch on to what choice of words someone in opposition used to describe what took place.

Well done.

FrancieBrady · 22-11-2017 5:58pm

Varadkar being boxed into a corner here according to RTE.

FF look like they will tell Leo they will back a SF motion of no confidence, according to Dail corespondent.

blanch152 · 22-11-2017 6:19pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Varadkar being boxed into a corner here according to RTE.

FF look like they will tell Leo they will back a SF motion of no confidence, according to Dail corespondent.

Do you have a link to this? Can't find it on the RTE website.

FrancieBrady · 22-11-2017 6:19pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Do you have a link to this? Can't find it on the RTE website.

No, it was a female correspondent reporting from the Dail and speaking to John Murray.

Murray asked her for a timescale and she said we will know later tonight.

blanch152 · 22-11-2017 6:20pm

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Acquiesced means to

I imagine it was used in this context to refer to this part in particular.

It has now been established that a justice minister was made aware of an attempt to smear or discredit Maurice McCabe, by false allegations of sex abuse, conspired by Martin Callinan, and continued with Noirin O'Sullivan, and she did nothing - except continue to pretend to support his actions publicly.

Yet instead of condoning it, you latch on to what choice of words someone in opposition used to describe what took place.

Well done.

I know what acquiesced means, it usually applies where you have little or no power to change events.

What I want to know is what does "positively acquiesced" mean?

James Brown · 22-11-2017 6:42pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I know what acquiesced means, it usually applies where you have little or no power to change events.

What I want to know is what does "positively acquiesced" mean?

'Positively' would imply action. Intentionally do nothing. Either way you try fudge it, he called her out on her disgrace.
Regardless of Martin, it's there for all to see.
I want O'Sullivan held to account.

The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

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