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The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

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  • 21-11-2017 12:15am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 21,296 ✭✭✭✭


    Katie Hannon says Francis Fitzgerald had some awareness of the Commissioner's legal team's attack strategy around the time it actually happened. Not a year later as we have been led to believe.

    Francis Fitzgerald, Charlie Flanagan and Leo Varadkar need to come clean, in the Dail.


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Comments

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




  • Registered Users Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Odhinn wrote: »
    A garda makes a complaint. The complaint dissappears into some parallel dimension while the senior Garda mentioned goes for and gets a promotion. Some form of quantum entaglement ensures that, promotion over, the complaint re-appears.


    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1119/921265-gardai-whistleblower/

    Bare faced cheek of the hightest order.

    It's fairly evident that a clear out is needed across the force. Whether anyone has the testicular fortitude required is another question.


    It would be very wrong for an interview board to be informed about unproven allegations about a candidate for promotion. Everyone is entitled to innocence until proven guilty.

    It is not like they are politicians in the public eye.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,176 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    blanch152 wrote: »
    It would be very wrong for an interview board to be informed about unproven allegations about a candidate for promotion. Everyone is entitled to innocence until proven guilty.

    It is not like they are politicians in the public eye.

    As opposed to hearing it on the grapevine? Possibility of them being unaware is slim, imo.

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,085 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Water John wrote: »
    Katie Hannon says Francis Fitzgerald had some awareness of the Commissioner's legal team's attack strategy around the time it actually happened. Not a year later as we have been led to believe.

    Francis Fitzgerald, Charlie Flanagan and Leo Varadkar need to come clean, in the Dail.

    *....the sound of excrement, hitting a fan with some speed.....*

    "The Taoiseach's account of when Tánaiste Frances Fitzgerald first learned about the legal strategy to attack the credibility and motives of Sgt Maurice McCabe at the O'Higgins Commission has been corrected by the Department of Justice.

    It has now been confirmed that Ms Fitzgerald was informed about the controversial legal strategy pursued by former Garda Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan in May 2015 - a full year before the issue came into the public domain."
    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1120/921573-leo-varadkar-frances-fitzgerald/

    No separation between civil servants, politicians and the Gardai there, a problem which still needs addressing.

    Of course there is now the question over why, when the minister was informed of the tactic to smear garda mccabe, did she not subsequently ask why the testimony from two gardai to this end was withdrawn when garda mccabe produced a recording of the conversation, which saw a garda of senior rank's (a chief superintendent) word effectively undermined, and why she didn't ask for this to be investigated.

    (long and detailed link)
    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/08/27/the-smearing-continued/


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,085 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Esel wrote: »
    As opposed to hearing it on the grapevine? Possibility of them being unaware is slim, imo.


    Gardai, some of them, are no strangers to the concept of "mental reservation".


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,262 ✭✭✭emo72


    fitzgerald is a goner.

    edit... just seen claire byrne. she was made aware "that something was up", but didnt ask what. you are the fuc..king justice minister. why are you not making yourself aware of all the facts? shouldnt you be making yourself of al the facts to get to the bottom of it? or are you just a career politician in it for your own benefit? no need to reply. i know the answer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,872 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Water John wrote: »
    Katie Hannon says Francis Fitzgerald had some awareness of the Commissioner's legal team's attack strategy around the time it actually happened. Not a year later as we have been led to believe.

    Francis Fitzgerald, Charlie Flanagan and Leo Varadkar need to come clean, in the Dail.

    Article was on the journal has since been removed


  • Registered Users Posts: 932 ✭✭✭mikep


    Has Leo put enough distance between himself and Frances Fitzgerald as according to the report on morning ireland, when he mentioned this in the Dail twice last week he said he had spoken with Frances before answering..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭sword1


    Rick Shaw wrote: »
    Two commisoners gone, one.justice minister gone, one more looking extremelly likely to fall on their sword.

    Happens under the tenure of the party of law and order.

    How much will their pensions cost though. It would be more punishment and value for the taxpayer if they were made stay. There needs to be clauses put in place in the pension that if they do a bad job they suffer instead of being rewarded.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,296 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    No doubt, alarm bells went off in her head, when she heard or read McCabe's taped rebuttal. That she did not act and order an inquiry by GSOC or some outside person, stinks. and is a resigning matter.
    Is she, on the record as saying, the first she knew of it was, a year later?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,359 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Rick Shaw wrote: »
    Two commisoners gone, one.justice minister gone, one more looking extremelly likely to fall on their sword.

    Happens under the tenure of the party of law and order.

    Is there another example of an Irish government so incompetently managing an issue?
    I don't know of one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Is there another example of an Irish government so incompetently managing an issue?
    I don't know of one.


    The Bank Guarantee of 2008 by Fianna Fail is probably the most incompetent governmental decision of all time, not just in Ireland.

    However, a measure of sympathy for parties in government as only those who do, fail. Those who sit on the sidelines never fail, they just carp and whinge but they never succeed in anything either. We have had our fair share of those over the years, from Neil Blaney to Mick Wallace.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,296 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Maybe SF not dealing with sex abuse scandals is comparable.
    I think most people are fed up with this obfuscation and mullarkey. People want open honest politics. Tell the truth and let the chips fall where they do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,359 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Water John wrote: »
    Maybe SF not dealing with sex abuse scandals is comparable.
    I think most people are fed up with this obfuscation and mullarkey. People want open honest politics. Tell the truth and let the chips fall where they do.

    SF were an 'Irish government'?

    Two Garda Commissioners and a Minister gone and another facing the cliffedge and a Taoiseach having to at least correct his statements in the Dail record.

    They are showing no signs of engaging in open honest politics tbh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    blanch152 wrote:
    The Bank Guarantee of 2008 by Fianna Fail is probably the most incompetent governmental decision of all time, not just in Ireland.


    Didn't FG vote for said guarantee and continue to implement once assuming office?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    blanch152 wrote:
    However, a measure of sympathy for parties in government as only those who do, fail. Those who sit on the sidelines never fail, they just carp and whinge but they never succeed in anything either. We have had our fair share of those over the years, from Neil Blaney to Mick Wallace.


    Deflection to others as always.lol.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    blanch152 wrote: »
    It would be very wrong for an interview board to be informed about unproven allegations about a candidate for promotion. Everyone is entitled to innocence until proven guilty.

    It is not like they are politicians in the public eye.

    Is this view of yours carry a blanket presumption of innocence until found gully to all politicians in Ireland, or does it only apply to politicians from certain political parties?

    You were singing from a different hymn sheet only 12hrs ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,085 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Fitzgerald under the third degree on RTE1 just now. "unconvincing" would be the most diplomatic way of describing it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,359 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Fitzgerald under the third degree on RTE1 just now. "unconvincing" would be the most diplomatic way of describing it.

    Painful, would be my word for it.

    She is toast, Leo will hang her out to dry on this I would imagine. Not that she isn't doing a fair job herself.
    Her plea of innocence just implies gross incompetence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    She is toast, Leo will hang her out to dry on this I would imagine. Not that she isn't doing a fair job herself. Her plea of innocence just implies gross incompetence.


    Going by recent history I doubt if she's toast. I fully expect all ministers including the IA and the independent FG ministers to express full confidence in her claiming it is nothing but a distraction from the important work of government. Btw has Leo corrected the Dail record yet?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,359 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Going by recent history I doubt if she's toast. I fully expect all ministers including the IA and the independent FG ministers to express full confidence in her claiming it is nothing but a distraction from the important work of government. Btw has Leo corrected the Dail record yet?

    No, he has to do it this afternoon, apparently.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    No, he has to do it this afternoon, apparently.


    Becoming a habit for FG Taoiseach aswell. Enda had to correct the record several times, conversations he had with ministers that never happened. lol.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Varadkar will brazen it out. She'll be shown the back door when it dies down or when Varadkar can deflect with say, a national campaign about being nice to the elderly.
    It cannot be believed that she didn't ask or was given no detail. If she lied or plumb forgot when talking to Varadkar, it does not bode well. Fianna Fail would have had them talk to an underling and Fitzgerald would have been free to give it the old, 'maybe my department knew, but I wasn't aware'.
    Varadkar was in the dark and made look foolish or having a 'casual relationship with the truth' and caught out. Either way it'll be interesting to see the spin on this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,293 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    She should have been ditched at the last cabinet reshuffle when Leo took over. So it's poor judgement on his part to keep her on, particularly as he knew how useless a minister she was.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    She should have been ditched at the last cabinet reshuffle when Leo took over. So it's poor judgement on his part to keep her on, particularly as he knew how useless a minister she was.

    The whole affair such as Fine Gael's blind loyalty and confidence in O'Sullivan is all very confusing. There must be a lot going on behind the scenes we aren't aware of, or Fitzgerald forget she was aware of.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    If the opposition had the guts they would bring down this government but this country's size and the incestuous nature of relationships between govt and civil servants including the Gardai is rotten and imho completely unfixable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,085 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    The whole affair such as Fine Gael's blind loyalty and confidence in O'Sullivan is all very confusing. There must be a lot going on behind the scenes we aren't aware of, or Fitzgerald forget she was aware of.

    It could well be the usual deference to the uniform -

    'This man is one who we know is wrong, but we're limited in what we can do'
    'Yes Garda, of course Garda. Do what you think best'.

    Callinan was a master of that schtick, and O'Sullivan and him were extremely close as they rose through the ranks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    If the opposition had the guts they would bring down this government but this country's size and the incestuous nature of relationships between govt and civil servants including the Gardai is rotten and imho completely unfixable.

    On this.

    I see Catherine Murphy has claimed she has proof that evidence she submitted to the Cregan commission, ref siteserv and IBRC has been widely leaked to third party's.

    Apart from that, the estimated cost of the enquiry has jumped from €4m to €25m.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Rick Shaw wrote: »
    On this.

    I see Catherine Murphy has claimed she has proof that evidence she submitted to the Cregan commission, ref siteserv and IBRC has been widely leaked to third party's.

    Apart from that, the estimated cost of the enquiry has jumped from €4m to €25m.

    Will there, can there be any accountability? Are we on a road to 'recommendations' to change policy? Very expensive road to nothing for political window dressing. Is O'Sullivan off the hook regardless or will it be accusations of 'inappropriate behaviour' with no come back.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,085 ✭✭✭Odhinn




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