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The Sub 3 Support Thread

1…4647495152…72

Comments

  • #2402
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    Would you mind giving me a breakdown of what a typical week would look like?


  • #2403
    bigslice
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭bigslice


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Would you mind giving me a breakdown of what a typical week would look like?

    I haven’t it with me but will update later. I went for 6 days a week most weeks and rule of thumb was never take a day off after a long run.


  • #2404
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    bigslice wrote: »
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Would you mind giving me a breakdown of what a typical week would look like?

    I haven’t it with me but will update later. I went for 6 days a week most weeks and rule of thumb was never take a day off after a long run.
    Thanks a lot! Looking forward to it


  • #2405
    thomas anderson.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭thomas anderson.


    bigslice wrote: »
    I haven’t it with me but will update later. I went for 6 days a week most weeks and rule of thumb was never take a day off after a long run.

    I also wouldn't mind having a sconce off that


  • #2406
    tomred1N
    Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭tomred1N


    bigslice wrote: »
    For what it’s worth, I stagnated on P&D 55miles plans for round 3.15-3.20 marathons. I found too many of the runs one paced and stepping away from it the main thing I noticed was increased MP miles and harder speed sessions.

    On the sub2.50 block I was finding the longer runs a bit too easy and was finishing like a train. Reviewed this with the coach and he said to make the weekday easier runs a bit faster and increased the week days miles, going into the long run a bit more fatigued. It helped and the effort levels soon went up to finish out the long runs. Definitely stood to me.

    This is fast turning into the Sub 2:50 support thread !!

    I was also stuck around 3:19 => 3:14 =>3:12 with P&D 18/55. Considered 18/70 plan but seemed same just more miles. I also found some runs one paced and worse boring. Like 14 mile MLR. Now with club I could do midweek tempo run. 5 miles easy, 3 X 2M tempo and 2/3 CD. 14 miles with variety done in what seems like no time. I found the book is excellent and if looking to improve off 1st or second marathon its bullet proof. However when you begin to stagnate and moving to mad miles isn't feasible mixing things up worked better for me.
    Also I like to enjoy my sunday morning long run. I hate doing and the thought of doing lots of MP miles in the long run. It wears me down and doesn't seem to add as much physical improvement. So in recent DCM training I didn't run any MP miles with exception of 15 @MP in a race 4 weeks out to see if I was in ball park of what I was attempting. Instead I added a weekly speed session on track. Hard running but quick recovery for next workout and ultimately made MP feel much easier on race day. Train Hard Race Easy I saw somewhere recently. Anyway its horses for courses too but if its a slog its not enjoyment. And if its not enjoyable then ..........


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  • #2407
    Testosterscone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    tomred1N wrote: »
    This is fast turning into the Sub 2:50 support thread !!

    Could do with a revival ;)

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056121735


  • #2408
    tomred1N
    Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭tomred1N


    Testosterscone wrote: »
    Could do with a revival ;)

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056121735


    Good find.

    Thank Christ its only 11 pages long !!

    I asked someone recently if they knew what the difference between cocaine and running endorphins was !! I'd say whatever it is its minimal :eek:


  • #2409
    bigslice
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭bigslice


    Never meant to take it off topic! Apologies :-)

    I suppose my point was similar to what tomred has said re stagnation.

    You need a challenge and variation to keep the mind fresh when the legs and body maybe aren’t. Miles for the sake of it mightn’t help that.

    One of the best bits of advice I got was never go into a session on fresh legs just so you can hit the targets set out. That’s very achievable for most decent runners. The easy miles before that on the back of long runs and other sessions can keep you honest in terms of effort levels. You may not always hit the pace as a result but you’ll benefit from it.


  • #2410
    noelearly
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭noelearly


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Many thanks! The more I read on this thread the more I'm questioning my own training. I think I've been slaughtering myself.
    In two sub3 runs I would have done 6-10 mile tempo runs but the pace would be 6:20-6:30 per mile i.e. 20-30 seconds quicker than goal pace. Then in the speed session either 10 repeats of 800m in 2:50 with 70 seconds recovery or 5-6 mile repeats in 5:50 with 2 mins recovery.
    From your contributions and reading over the plans in Advanced Marathoning it seems as though I'd be much better off running at marathon pace and then interval work at 5k-10k pace but increasing the miles. I couldn't believe how little hard running was in the plans but of course I rarely come close to doing 50 miles per week and that is the upper end of what I'd do.
    Feels like right now it's a leap of faith and try one of those plans or go back to tried and trusted 40-45 miles per week but with faster hard running sessions. Any one able to help me make my decision? I'm managing a niggle right now but want to make a plan to take me to the end of January and then get into a proper marathon programme for a marathon in May.

    Without going into specific paces, the best bit of advise i ever got was from a fella in his 60s who has done multiple 3 hour marathons. Think his best was in the 2.30s. "Your long should be long, as you stay on your feet for a long time, don't go flogging yourself in the long run by doing silly paces" it only messes up your workouts for the week ahead.

    My long runs were done at 8.00 to 8.30 pace for 90% of the time. Not saying it's gospel but it works for me.


  • #2411
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    noelearly wrote: »
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Many thanks! The more I read on this thread the more I'm questioning my own training. I think I've been slaughtering myself.
    In two sub3 runs I would have done 6-10 mile tempo runs but the pace would be 6:20-6:30 per mile i.e. 20-30 seconds quicker than goal pace. Then in the speed session either 10 repeats of 800m in 2:50 with 70 seconds recovery or 5-6 mile repeats in 5:50 with 2 mins recovery.
    From your contributions and reading over the plans in Advanced Marathoning it seems as though I'd be much better off running at marathon pace and then interval work at 5k-10k pace but increasing the miles. I couldn't believe how little hard running was in the plans but of course I rarely come close to doing 50 miles per week and that is the upper end of what I'd do.
    Feels like right now it's a leap of faith and try one of those plans or go back to tried and trusted 40-45 miles per week but with faster hard running sessions. Any one able to help me make my decision? I'm managing a niggle right now but want to make a plan to take me to the end of January and then get into a proper marathon programme for a marathon in May.

    Without going into specific paces, the best bit of advise i ever got was from a fella in his 60s who has done multiple 3 hour marathons. Think his best was in the 2.30s. "Your long should be long, as you stay on your feet for a long time, don't go flogging yourself in the long run by doing silly paces" it only messes up your workouts for the week ahead.

    My long runs were done at 8.00 to 8.30 pace for 90% of the time. Not saying it's gospel but it works for me.

    I'd have that philosophy as well. I run somewhere around that time too for my long runs. It's the other sessions I'm thinking of now


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  • #2412
    jonnner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 221 ✭✭jonnner


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    I'd have that philosophy as well. I run somewhere around that time too for my long runs. It's the other sessions I'm thinking of now

    P&D (and others I think) state long run pace as starting at 120% of MP and finishing around 110% of MP. So yeah that pace should be fine if aiming for 2:59. Ideally you would finish the run quicker though.
    If you're staying at that pace for the entire run, you're quite a bit off MP and are not teaching the body to burn fuel close to MP. So throwing in MP workouts maybe becomes more important.
    On most long runs I didn't get as quick as 110% either (company wasn't able for it), but I ran a midweek medium-long run quicker, and had MP workouts periodically.
    Just my 2 cent, we're all different!


  • #2413
    RayCun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    You can't take the long run in isolation from the rest of the week's training when discussing what the pace should be.

    I know one coach who says the long run should always be easy pace, 8 min/miles for sub 3 runners, but he would have the same runners do a hard tempo the day before every week.

    The plan I'm following has the long run finish with a progression this week, but the run is short and the rest of the week has been easy, compared to other weeks when the run was longer and all easy.

    The Hanson plan has a longest run of 16 miles, but more faster work during the week along the way.


  • #2414
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,533 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    noelearly wrote: »
    Without going into specific paces, the best bit of advise i ever got was from a fella in his 60s who has done multiple 3 hour marathons. Think his best was in the 2.30s. "Your long should be long, as you stay on your feet for a long time, don't go flogging yourself in the long run by doing silly paces" it only messes up your workouts for the week ahead.

    My long runs were done at 8.00 to 8.30 pace for 90% of the time. Not saying it's gospel but it works for me.
    I think we have to sub-categorize two types of long run:
    The long easy run - where the goal is primarily endurance, but for some, may have sub-goals like adaptation, running long on tired feet, etc.
    The long run with 'stuff' - Focus is speed endurance, dialing in race pace, simulation, etc.

    In my view, the long easy run is an important part of adaptation, particularly when you are new to marathoning and long runs are a pretty new component of your training. But eventually they have a diminishing return and ultimately as you go through marathon cycles, continuing to do them will result in some level of junk miles. The good news is that it's not hard to adapt them so that they are once again providing benefit. Examples would be:
    Progression run: Start easy, gradually increase the pace, finish at a faster pace (perhaps up to half marathon pace, if you've paced it well)
    Steady long run: MP + 10%, increase to MP + 5%
    Long run finishing with strides with a focus on form
    Long run with no water/nutrition

    Long run with stuff: Like I said, goal is speed-endurance (and some of the above examples would be a nod towards speed-endurance - like the Canova long steady run). Other common examples (usually you progress to a point where you can complete these sessions):
    5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 @MP (Tergat @Boards)
    4 x 3 Miles @MP with 800 steady (Magness)
    18 miles with last 12 @MP (P&D)
    3 x 5 miles with 800 steady (Daniels?)
    15 miles @MP (Daniels - handle with care!)

    Essentially, when you progress to a point in your plan, where you are no longer getting any significant benefit from increasing the distance, or naturally increasing the pace, you've got to question what the value is. Like every run, the long run should have a purpose and you should know what the purpose is, before you head out.

    So for example, I've just started a 21 week marathon plan for Rotterdam, based on Magness marathon template (for high mileage runners (100mpw+). Early long runs (base building period) start at 14 miles and progress over 5-6 weeks to around 20 miles. For these long runs, I'll be happy enough to 'go with the pace' while I adapt to doing long runs again, but after that I'll try to have a specific plan for each long run. Some weeks won't have a long run, in favour of doing a hard session. Well, that's the philosophy anyway. I don't always stick to the plan, and that's usually where the injuries start for me.

    We all feel good about ourselves after doing a long run (my family are sick of hearing about my long runs!), but apart form the feel-good factor, we have to be able to identify a specific benefit. Maybe if you haven't followed a marathon plan for a long time, the benefit is simply to build up endurance again and that's perfectly ok - because it has a specific goal. Hell, maybe like me, you enjoy running in nature, running with pals or just want to get your head right and those reasons are ok too, just don't expect the same level of benefit as having a long run focused on achieving a specific goal.


  • #2415
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    bigslice wrote: »
    One of the best bits of advice I got was never go into a session on fresh legs just so you can hit the targets set out.

    That, on the face of it, contradicts anything I've ever heard. Our club sessions are Tuesdays and Thursdays, but I've had umpteen experiences of being told by faster and more experienced runners that they are too close together, that 48 hours between sessions is the absolute minimum, and there really should be 3 days between sessions. With the same if possible until the long run. The sharp-eyed will notice that that results in an 8, rather than 7, day cycle.

    I include the anomaly only to highlight how we are always trying to square a circle somehow with our training.


  • #2416
    Itziger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,017 ✭✭✭Itziger


    davedanon wrote: »
    That, on the face of it, contradicts anything I've ever heard. Our club sessions are Tuesdays and Thursdays, but I've had umpteen experiences of being told by faster and more experienced runners that they are too close together, that 48 hours between sessions is the absolute minimum, and there really should be 3 days between sessions. With the same if possible until the long run. The sharp-eyed will notice that that results in an 8, rather than 7, day cycle.

    I include the anomaly only to highlight how we are always trying to square a circle somehow with our training.

    While I normally try to avoid the age card, I do believe that the gaps between sessions are something that may be affected by old age. I would very rarely attempt a second hard effort before the 3rd day. Recently I broke that rule due to travelling and the availability of a group long run at decent pace 2 days after a session. Fortunately I was fine. Perhaps the 20 year olds can do that stuff every week.


  • #2417
    RayCun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    davedanon wrote: »
    That, on the face of it, contradicts anything I've ever heard. Our club sessions are Tuesdays and Thursdays, but I've had umpteen experiences of being told by faster and more experienced runners that they are too close together, that 48 hours between sessions is the absolute minimum, and there really should be 3 days between sessions. With the same if possible until the long run. The sharp-eyed will notice that that results in an 8, rather than 7, day cycle.

    When I joined Bros Pearse, we had the same Tuesday/Thursday session cycle, but after a while I just stopped going to the Thursday session because I thought it was too close and it was wearing me out.

    We've eventually managed to switch to Tuesday session/Thursday easy/Saturday tempo, which I think works better. But it means attendance on Thursday is not as good, because people don't make the effort to attend an easy run.

    (We also have a group doing the session on Wednesday and easy run on Monday, which helps. Part of the thinking behind the Thursday session was that some people couldn't be there on Tuesdays)
    Itziger wrote: »
    Perhaps the 20 year olds can do that stuff every week.

    The juveniles do have sessions Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday, so shorter recoveries. But they also tend to do shorter sessions - a long warm-up, a proper cooldown, and so less work in between.


  • #2418
    EC1000
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭EC1000


    Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
    McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
    hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
    TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
    FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
    AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
    Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
    MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
    snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
    EC1000|17:18|N/a|37:38|61:45|1:22:08|3:07:XX|Rotterdam 2018
    rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
    davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
    Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
    Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
    Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
    Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
    Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
    CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
    Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
    El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
    Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
    ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
    Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
    rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
    Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
    SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
    MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
    FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

    If this table tells me anything its that I need to work on speed endurance...


  • #2419
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
    McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
    hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
    TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
    FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
    AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
    Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
    MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
    snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
    EC1000|17:18|N/a|37:38|61:45|1:22:08|3:07:XX|Rotterdam 2018
    rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
    davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:29:18|3:14:18|
    Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
    Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
    Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
    Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
    Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
    CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
    Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
    El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
    Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
    ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
    Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
    rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
    Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
    SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
    MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
    FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist


  • #2420
    bigslice
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭bigslice


    davedanon wrote: »
    That, on the face of it, contradicts anything I've ever heard. Our club sessions are Tuesdays and Thursdays, but I've had umpteen experiences of being told by faster and more experienced runners that they are too close together, that 48 hours between sessions is the absolute minimum, and there really should be 3 days between sessions. With the same if possible until the long run. The sharp-eyed will notice that that results in an 8, rather than 7, day cycle.

    I include the anomaly only to highlight how we are always trying to square a circle somehow with our training.

    With everything in life, people have vastly different approaches to their training. In my training and others I know, this has worked well for them and it’s specific marathon training. Not sure if your guys are training for shorter stuff where intensity of the sessions might be different.

    I can’t have any complaints!


  • #2421
    zulutango
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    I have to say this thread is really informative and inspiring. Thanks all.

    Can I ask contributors what their thoughts are on age? I see it's been referenced a few times in the posts above. Obviously there's a drop off in capability with age but is it a significant one and can we put some science on it? The reason I ask is that I am doing the best running I've ever done at 38 years old. The reason it's the best is that I just didn't train or run particularly well before. I can see myself making steady improvements in the next few years (sub 3 and beyond), but at the same time I'm pushing 40 now and I guess that has to be counting against me in some way. I'm just not sure how much. Not that I can do anything about it, but curious all the same.


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  • #2422
    RayCun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    zulutango wrote: »
    Can I ask contributors what their thoughts are on age?

    Earlier this year Krusty ran 2:30 at 45 years old.
    Gary O'Hanlon just ran 2:18 in Dublin marathon at 43.


  • #2423
    Testosterscone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    zulutango wrote: »
    I have to say this thread is really informative and inspiring. Thanks all.

    Can I ask contributors what their thoughts are on age? I see it's been referenced a few times in the posts above. Obviously there's a drop off in capability with age but is it a significant one and can we put some science on it? The reason I ask is that I am doing the best running I've ever done at 38 years old. The reason it's the best is that I just didn't train or run particularly well before. I can see myself making steady improvements in the next few years (sub 3 and beyond), but at the same time I'm pushing 40 now and I guess that has to be counting against me in some way. I'm just not sure how much. Not that I can do anything about it, but curious all the same.

    Replace chronological age with training age as it's much more relevant. Plenty of my athletes are still getting Pbs at 40,45,50.

    The only thing is as you get older you have to train smarter and recover more efficiently. If memory serves me Krusty was in around that age when he started running and is still smashing it out of the park with us youngsters trying to keep up


  • #2424
    bigslice
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭bigslice


    Was over 40 when I broke sub3. In the prime of your running life!

    Being a bit more on point, I think a lot of people start in their 30’s after maybe years playing other sports or just been busy socially, so they pick it up and push on from there. When you look at age profiles in races, very few marathon runners in say 20-30 bracket, picks up 30-39 and is possibly peaking 40-49 with good numbers above that.

    It’s about knowing your own body and building up sensibly to a go at sub3 imho.


  • #2425
    Testosterscone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    davedanon wrote: »
    That, on the face of it, contradicts anything I've ever heard. Our club sessions are Tuesdays and Thursdays, but I've had umpteen experiences of being told by faster and more experienced runners that they are too close together, that 48 hours between sessions is the absolute minimum, and there really should be 3 days between sessions. With the same if possible until the long run. The sharp-eyed will notice that that results in an 8, rather than 7, day cycle.

    I include the anomaly only to highlight how we are always trying to square a circle somehow with our training.

    I don't necessarily think that there is a contradiction to be honest not going in on fresh legs could simply mean not coming into a session on an off day.

    Personally I know a lot of marathoners who aim to do 2 sessions a week and as a result stretch them out (many do Wednesday/Saturday with long easy run Sunday for cumulative fatigue) but those sessions would be big marathon specific sessions and as such the recovery needed would be a lot more, others might do 3 sessions a week with more 10k orientated work or more moderate work (shorter tempos / steady runs etc) in which case cumulative fatigue runs through the week.


  • #2426
    Itziger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,017 ✭✭✭Itziger


    bigslice wrote: »
    Was over 40 when I broke sub3. In the prime of your running life!

    Being a bit more on point, I think a lot of people start in their 30’s after maybe years playing other sports or just been busy socially, so they pick it up and push on from there. When you look at age profiles in races, very few marathon runners in say 20-30 bracket, picks up 30-39 and is possibly peaking 40-49 with good numbers above that.

    It’s about knowing your own body and building up sensibly to a go at sub3 imho.

    Was over 50 when I (eventually) broke sub 3. Is that a Boards record? I was 51 and 11 months. Must update table.


  • #2427
    Itziger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,017 ✭✭✭Itziger


    davedanon wrote: »
    Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
    McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
    hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
    TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
    FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
    AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
    Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
    MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
    snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
    EC1000|17:18|N/a|37:38|61:45|1:22:08|3:07:XX|Rotterdam 2018
    rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
    davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:29:18|3:14:18|
    Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|2:59:10|TBC 2018
    Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
    Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
    Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
    Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
    CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
    Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
    El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
    Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
    ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
    Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
    rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
    Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
    SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
    MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
    FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

    2018 target not clear yet. Maybe Cork again as I love that time of year. Maybe Cologne in Autumn.


  • #2428
    zulutango
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    RayCun wrote: »
    Earlier this year Krusty ran 2:30 at 45 years old.
    Gary O'Hanlon just ran 2:18 in Dublin marathon at 43.

    :eek:


  • #2429
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    Loving reading all of these contributions. A lot of heat on recovery. I've always trained hard on Tuesdays and Thursdays but then I run my saturday long run slowly with a partner. I pick an odd week when I am feeling good and finish the last 3-4 miles closer to MP and I feel that's enough (to get time on feet).
    I'm still struggling to work out what a good marathon training week should look like. I find I'm usually too sore on a Monday to run hard so I just do a recovery run. Wednesday is the same and usually a day off on Friday. I don't like the thought of facing 20 miles after having done intervals the day before and that's why I do them on a Thursday. It seems that on a seven day week that's the best way to get the most recovery into the legs. Sunday alternates between a day off and some light recovery running.


  • #2430
    RayCun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Loving reading all of these contributions. A lot of heat on recovery. I've always trained hard on Tuesdays and Thursdays but then I run my saturday long run slowly with a partner. I pick an odd week when I am feeling good and finish the last 3-4 miles closer to MP and I feel that's enough (to get time on feet).
    I'm still struggling to work out what a good marathon training week should look like. I find I'm usually too sore on a Monday to run hard so I just do a recovery run. Wednesday is the same and usually a day off on Friday. I don't like the thought of facing 20 miles after having done intervals the day before and that's why I do them on a Thursday. It seems that on a seven day week that's the best way to get the most recovery into the legs. Sunday alternates between a day off and some light recovery running.

    So your week is
    Monday: recovery run
    Tuesday: hard run, intervals?
    Wednesday: recovery run
    Thursday: intervals
    Friday: day off
    Saturday: long slow run, sometimes with a few miles at MP
    Sunday: day off or recovery run

    That's a lot of recovery days and days off. What do you mean by recovery, how does it compare to marathon pace? How slow is the Saturday run?


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  • #2431
    Swashbuckler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler


    But to put that into context I presume both Krusty and Gary have years upon years of running behind them to build to those times . For the likes of me and zulutango who may have some years of basic running behind us but only started structured training in the last year or so, are the odds against us?

    Edit: great thread by the way


  • #2432
    Testosterscone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    Swashbuckler wrote: »
    But to put that into context I presume both Krusty and Gary have years upon years of running behind them to build to those times . For the likes of me and zulutango who may have some years of basic running behind us but only started structured training in the last year or so, are the odds against us?

    Edit: great thread by the way

    KC started runNing after 35 in the sport with goal (IIRC) of breaking 60 for 10k back in the day (can look back on his old posts)

    If you want something bad enough look at how you can get there rather than looking for the reasons why you can't.

    99% of runners in Ireland will never reach there full potential for various reasons but doesn't mean the potential isn't there I think we tend to sell ourselves short too often


  • #2433
    RayCun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Swashbuckler wrote: »
    But to put that into context I presume both Krusty and Gary have years upon years of running behind them to build to those times . For the likes of me and zulutango who may have some years of basic running behind us but only started structured training in the last year or so, are the odds against us?

    Well, GOH was a very good juvenile athlete, then injured in a car crash, ran on again off again for a while, and started long distance running in his 30s.

    Krusty... well, you can read it yourself! 9 years ago, he was (counts fingers) 36 and running 43 minutes for 10k

    As Testostercone said above, there's chronological age and there's training age. If you've been training solidly for 20 years, well, you've probably passed your peak. If you've only been training a few years, there's a lot of improvement available. And that applies whether you are 20, 40, or 70.


  • #2434
    bigslice
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭bigslice


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Loving reading all of these contributions. A lot of heat on recovery. I've always trained hard on Tuesdays and Thursdays but then I run my saturday long run slowly with a partner. I pick an odd week when I am feeling good and finish the last 3-4 miles closer to MP and I feel that's enough (to get time on feet).
    I'm still struggling to work out what a good marathon training week should look like. I find I'm usually too sore on a Monday to run hard so I just do a recovery run. Wednesday is the same and usually a day off on Friday. I don't like the thought of facing 20 miles after having done intervals the day before and that's why I do them on a Thursday. It seems that on a seven day week that's the best way to get the most recovery into the legs. Sunday alternates between a day off and some light recovery running.
    Could you push the long run to Sunday?


  • #2435
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    RayCun wrote: »
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Loving reading all of these contributions. A lot of heat on recovery. I've always trained hard on Tuesdays and Thursdays but then I run my saturday long run slowly with a partner. I pick an odd week when I am feeling good and finish the last 3-4 miles closer to MP and I feel that's enough (to get time on feet).
    I'm still struggling to work out what a good marathon training week should look like. I find I'm usually too sore on a Monday to run hard so I just do a recovery run. Wednesday is the same and usually a day off on Friday. I don't like the thought of facing 20 miles after having done intervals the day before and that's why I do them on a Thursday. It seems that on a seven day week that's the best way to get the most recovery into the legs. Sunday alternates between a day off and some light recovery running.

    So your week is
    Monday: recovery run
    Tuesday: hard run, intervals?
    Wednesday: recovery run
    Thursday: intervals
    Friday: day off
    Saturday: long slow run, sometimes with a few miles at MP
    Sunday: day off or recovery run

    That's a lot of recovery days and days off. What do you mean by recovery, how does it compare to marathon pace? How slow is the Saturday run?
    Here it is;
    Monday: recovery run - 5-6 miles MP + 60 secs
    Tuesday: hard run, intervals? - 6-10 miles tempo - MP - 25 secs
    Wednesday: recovery run or steady run - 6-8 miles - MP + 30-45 secs
    Thursday: intervals - 800s x 8-10 in 2:50 1 min rest or 1600s x 5 in 5:50 2 min rest
    Friday: day off
    Saturday: long slow run, sometimes with a few miles at MP about MP - 90 secs for majority 
    Sunday: day off or recovery run


  • #2436
    RayCun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Here it is;
    Monday: recovery run - 5-6 miles MP + 60 secs
    Tuesday: hard run, intervals? - 6-10 miles tempo - MP - 25 secs
    Wednesday: recovery run or steady run - 6-8 miles - MP + 30-45 secs
    Thursday: intervals - 800s x 8-10 in 2:50 1 min rest or 1600s x 5 in 5:50 2 min rest
    Friday: day off
    Saturday: long slow run, sometimes with a few miles at MP about MP - 90 secs for majority 
    Sunday: day off or recovery run

    That looks like a training plan for something shorter than the marathon. You don't have a high volume overall, and you aren't putting any work into the long run, except for those times when you do a few miles at MP. You are doing most of your work in the tempo and interval runs, and everything else is recovering from them.


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  • #2437
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    RayCun wrote: »
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Here it is;
    Monday: recovery run - 5-6 miles MP + 60 secs
    Tuesday: hard run, intervals? - 6-10 miles tempo - MP - 25 secs
    Wednesday: recovery run or steady run - 6-8 miles - MP + 30-45 secs
    Thursday: intervals - 800s x 8-10 in 2:50 1 min rest or 1600s x 5 in 5:50 2 min rest
    Friday: day off
    Saturday: long slow run, sometimes with a few miles at MP about MP - 90 secs for majority 
    Sunday: day off or recovery run

    That looks like a training plan for something shorter than the marathon. You don't have a high volume overall, and you aren't putting any work into the long run, except for those times when you do a few miles at MP. You are doing most of your work in the tempo and interval runs, and everything else is recovering from them.
    Well it builds to a 50+ mile week I know it's not in the higher volume end of things compared to some people but I'd have thought it enough for marathon training. What would you suggest I change?


  • #2438
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    bigslice wrote: »
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Loving reading all of these contributions. A lot of heat on recovery. I've always trained hard on Tuesdays and Thursdays but then I run my saturday long run slowly with a partner. I pick an odd week when I am feeling good and finish the last 3-4 miles closer to MP and I feel that's enough (to get time on feet).
    I'm still struggling to work out what a good marathon training week should look like. I find I'm usually too sore on a Monday to run hard so I just do a recovery run. Wednesday is the same and usually a day off on Friday. I don't like the thought of facing 20 miles after having done intervals the day before and that's why I do them on a Thursday. It seems that on a seven day week that's the best way to get the most recovery into the legs. Sunday alternates between a day off and some light recovery running.
    Could you push the long run to Sunday?
    I could some weeks but then I'd struggle to do the faster stuff by Tuesday.


  • #2439
    RayCun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Well it builds to a 50+ mile week I know it's not in the higher volume end of things compared to some people but I'd have thought it enough for marathon training. What would you suggest I change?

    Is that 50 miles with 30 during the week and 20 at PMP+90 on the weekend?
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    I could some weeks but then I'd struggle to do the faster stuff by Tuesday.

    Yeah, that's the thing. Your training is geared around that tempo run on Tuesday, and it is going to make you good at that tempo effort. (You go into the intervals tired, and you are taking short recoveries, so you are also going to be working close to the same systems.)

    You need to put less of your weekly effort into the tempo runs, and more into endurance at paces closer to MP.
    Run more at your MP +60 pace. No Sundays and Mondays off, or at least fewer of them. Take a day off on Wednesday instead maybe? Do your long run at MP+60.
    Bring your long run into the 15-20 mile range early, and then add things into it - your MP pace finishes, steady miles (MP+30ish), surges, etc.
    Don't worry about going a bit slower on your tempo runs, and/or keeping them at the shorter end of the range, or splitting them into 3 tempo/3 MP/3 tempo, that kind of thing.
    And add more variety!


  • #2440
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    Is that 50 miles with 30 during the week and 20 at PMP+90 on the weekend? yes something like that.
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    I could some weeks but then I'd struggle to do the faster stuff by Tuesday.

    Yeah, that's the thing. Your training is geared around that tempo run on Tuesday, and it is going to make you good at that tempo effort. (You go into the intervals tired, and you are taking short recoveries, so you are also going to be working close to the same systems.)

    You need to put less of your weekly effort into the tempo runs, and more into endurance at paces closer to MP.
    Run more at your MP +60 pace. No Sundays and Mondays off, or at least fewer of them. Take a day off on Wednesday instead maybe? Do your long run at MP+60.
    Bring your long run into the 15-20 mile range early, and then add things into it - your MP pace finishes, steady miles (MP+30ish), surges, etc.
    Don't worry about going a bit slower on your tempo runs, and/or keeping them at the shorter end of the range, or splitting them into 3 tempo/3 MP/3 tempo, that kind of thing.
    And add more variety!

    I think if I can get the plan right then following it will be fine. Every time I read something I end up with more questions than answers and revert back to what worked before but now the goal is to progress. I'm slowly finding clarity.
    So would a better running week be something like this
    M - 8 miles MP + 60 progressing to MP + 30
    T - 8 miles - 2 at MP, 2 HMP, 2 10kP, 2 MP
    W - 4 miles slow recovery or rest
    T - Intervals - 800s, 1600s or pyramid sessions (this run causes me untold anxiety - I thought 5 mile reps at 5:50 was fantastic but might not be great training at all)
    F - 8 miles slow/steady
    S - long run as you've outlined (clearer about this one)
    S - 4-5 miles slow recovery

    Thats around the 60 mile mark or higher.


  • #2441
    RayCun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    So would a better running week be something like this
    M - 8 miles MP + 60 progressing to MP + 30
    T - 8 miles - 2 at MP, 2 HMP, 2 10kP, 2 MP
    W - 4 miles slow recovery or rest
    T - Intervals - 800s, 1600s or pyramid sessions (this run causes me untold anxiety - I thought 5 mile reps at 5:50 was fantastic but might not be great training at all)
    F - 8 miles slow/steady
    S - long run as you've outlined (clearer about this one)
    S - 4-5 miles slow recovery

    Thats around the 60 mile mark or higher.

    The Monday could be just MP+60

    Tuesday, you don't have to do the same session every week! The progression towards the marathon isn't just making your long run a bit longer each week, your sessions should be progressive as well. Tuesday is something that can get more difficult, and more marathon-specific, as you get closer to the marathon. Maybe you want to end up with a session like 10 miles alternating between tempo and MP (off the top of my head), you can get there starting with shorter runs, and runs where the easier sections are slower (full recovery/walking recovery/easy running)

    The Thursday intervals are good training, they're just not marathon-specific. Good for 10ks say. Which is not something you want to neglect in marathon training, but all your training has been preparing you to run a good first half of the marathon.

    Are you doing this all on your own? I'd join a club and work on a training plan with a coach there, or pick up a good book (Magness, Pfitzinger, Daniels...) and follow a plan from that.


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  • #2442
    healy1835
    Registered Users Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭healy1835


    davedanon wrote: »
    Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
    McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
    hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
    TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
    FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
    AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
    Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
    MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
    snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
    EC1000|17:18|N/a|37:38|61:45|1:22:08|3:07:XX|Rotterdam 2018
    rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
    davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:29:18|3:14:18|
    healy1835|18:58|30:55|38:56|1:05:52|1:25:52|3:15:26|Rotterdam 2018
    Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|2:59:10|TBC 2018
    Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
    Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
    Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
    Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
    CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
    Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
    El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
    Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
    ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
    Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
    rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
    Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
    SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
    MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
    FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

    May as well stick myself up here. My most recent marathon in Berlin can be read about here. I'm hoping to do a bit of damage to most of these PB's before Rotterdam. Some softer than others. Finding this thread a great read....


  • #2443
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,533 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Swashbuckler wrote: »
    But to put that into context I presume both Krusty and Gary have years upon years of running behind them to build to those times . For the likes of me and zulutango who may have some years of basic running behind us but only started structured training in the last year or so, are the odds against us?
    My circumstances are quite different to Gary's (as he's obviously 12 minutes quicker than me - which is a massive chasm at the pointier end of times), but that youngster isn't around, so I'll share my experience. :p

    I started training in earnest (3-4 times a week), in the build-up to my first marathon, which was Longford marathon in August 2008, finishing in 3:25 at age 36. Broke 3 hours (2:55) in Barcelona in March 2010 at age 38, having come pretty close in Berlin the previous September (3:00:50).

    I've repeated this so many times on this forum that it's become a bit of a cliche, but after crossing the finish line in Berlin in 3:00:50, I'd have happily retired from running. I never thought that I was the kind of person who could run a 3 hour marathon, and it kind of blew my mind that I was able to achieve it. I went through a similar thought process when I ran 2:48, 2:48, 2:46, 2:43, 2:38, 2:38, 2:35, 2:33, and 2:30:01.

    You'll notice the numbers didn't change twice, in the above progression. After running 2:48, I ran a 1 second PB a year later, after investing in a year's training and thousands of miles. Same thing happened when running 2:38. Thousands more miles of hard graft for a 20 second PB. The thought process turns to diminishing returns and reaching the limits of your capability, but then you change things up... Switch to a different plan.. Focus on speed gains over shorter distances before returning to the marathon and you get the results. The bottom line is that when you think you are reaching the limits of your capability, you probably are... Until you do something about it.. And if you listen to Steve Magness, what's makes someone a good marathon runner is the ability to keep grinding away, despite setbacks and cheerless results.

    It should be said that the progress hasn't come easy. Every year has equated to greater and greater levels of commitment. The mileage goes up, the weight comes down, the supporting stuff goes up (pilates, yoga, stretching), the injuries get more serious and take longer to recover from, and the dietary focus increases. Not many have the environment or circumstances that allow them to commit to that kind of discipline (young families, inflexible jobs etc.), for what is essentially a hobby, so in many cases you also have to have the opportunity and no small amount of luck. Most people won't get there - but it's not because they can't - it's because they will choose not to.

    Final thought: A buddy of mine who I first started this running journey with once asked me: if I had the perfect environment (won the lotto, didn't have to work, perfect coaching etc. etc), what did I think I could run for the marathon? At the time, I reckoned I could beat 2:45. I still haven't won the lotto, but it turns out, you don't really need to - you just need to commit.


  • #2444
    ooter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭ooter


    Great post Krusty, love the bit about keeping on grinding away.


  • #2445
    psalm69
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭psalm69


    Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
    McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
    hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
    TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
    FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
    AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
    Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
    MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
    snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
    EC1000|17:18|N/a|37:38|61:45|1:22:08|3:07:XX|Rotterdam 2018
    rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
    davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:29:18|3:14:18|
    healy1835|18:58|30:55|38:56|1:05:52|1:25:52|3:15:26|Rotterdam 2018
    Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|2:59:10|TBC 2018
    psalm69|18:12|32:53|38:43|1:13:49|1:26:51|3:12:07|Rotterdam 2018
    Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
    Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
    Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
    Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
    CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
    Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
    El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
    Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
    ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
    Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
    rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
    Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
    SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
    MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
    FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

    All signed up for Rotterdam, and ready to give sub 3 a go. For last Marathon I had a good block of training to get my current PB and I believe consistency was the key in this block of training as the mileage was low.

    Upped the mileage over the summer to my detriment and am coming of the back of runners knee! Hoping to start back in December and then start a 14 week plan from January 1


  • #2446
    zulutango
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
    McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
    hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
    TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
    FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
    AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
    Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
    MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
    snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
    EC1000|17:18|N/a|37:38|61:45|1:22:08|3:07:XX|Rotterdam 2018
    rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
    davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:29:18|3:14:18|
    healy1835|18:58|30:55|38:56|1:05:52|1:25:52|3:15:26|Rotterdam 2018
    Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|2:59:10|TBC 2018
    psalm69|18:12|32:53|38:43|1:13:49|1:26:51|3:12:07|Rotterdam 2018
    Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
    Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
    Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
    Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
    CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
    zulutango|18:46|n/a|39:01|n/a|1:25:28|4:33:xx|Seville 2018
    Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
    El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
    Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
    ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
    Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
    rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
    Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
    SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
    MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
    FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

    Signed up for Seville in February and will have a bash off 3 hours.


  • #2447
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    RayCun wrote: »
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    So would a better running week be something like this
    M - 8 miles MP + 60 progressing to MP + 30
    T - 8 miles - 2 at MP, 2 HMP, 2 10kP, 2 MP
    W - 4 miles slow recovery or rest
    T - Intervals - 800s, 1600s or pyramid sessions (this run causes me untold anxiety - I thought 5 mile reps at 5:50 was fantastic but might not be great training at all)
    F - 8 miles slow/steady
    S - long run as you've outlined (clearer about this one)
    S - 4-5 miles slow recovery

    Thats around the 60 mile mark or higher.

    The Monday could be just MP+60

    Tuesday, you don't have to do the same session every week! The progression towards the marathon isn't just making your long run a bit longer each week, your sessions should be progressive as well. Tuesday is something that can get more difficult, and more marathon-specific, as you get closer to the marathon. Maybe you want to end up with a session like 10 miles alternating between tempo and MP (off the top of my head), you can get there starting with shorter runs, and runs where the easier sections are slower (full recovery/walking recovery/easy running)

    The Thursday intervals are good training, they're just not marathon-specific. Good for 10ks say. Which is not something you want to neglect in marathon training, but all your training has been preparing you to run a good first half of the marathon.

    Are you doing this all on your own? I'd join a club and work on a training plan with a coach there, or pick up a good book (Magness, Pfitzinger, Daniels...) and follow a plan from that.
    Thanks very much for the advice. I'm torturing everyone on here! 
    Ah yea I usually begin my tempo at 6 miles and build up to 10 or even 12 but mainly one paced. Some of the guys on here seem to run longer at varied paces for their tempo run. 
    So on the Thursday would you recommend that I maybe do intervals some weeks and marathon paced longer runs others?
    For the long run it's usually a big chunk at 8.00 to 8.30s and the final 6 miles will be MP + 20 with 2 MP miles thrown in at the end plus a cool down mile.
    I did run with a club before but found myself a bit disillusioned as it wasn't really taking me on. I am considering joining a new club but work and home commitments mean I can do little training at the group times.


  • #2448
    bigslice
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭bigslice


    I checked back at my 3hr block from 16. A lot of weeks the vast majority of runs where easy miles. The main session was the weekly tempo run at MP building up to 10miles.
    A lot of weeks had a decent sized midweek easy paced MP +30/40 secs maedijm run up to 12miles. And then the long run on Sunday long run.

    But I ran nearly every day from 5-8 easy miles with some strides thrown in at end it easy run or some hill repeats covering 40-60 seconds and jog recovery.

    Squinn you probably have info overload at this stage! I’d get a plan together be it a new approach from previous one you followed or online coach and run with it. Your 2 sessions plus a long run to me just seems to be too many hard runs rather than banking miles and building a good mix of endurance and required speed.


  • #2449
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    bigslice wrote: »
    I checked back at my 3hr block from 16. A lot of weeks the vast majority of runs where easy miles. The main session was the weekly tempo run at MP building up to 10miles.
    A lot of weeks had a decent sized midweek easy paced MP +30/40 secs maedijm run up to 12miles.  And then the long run on Sunday long run.

    But I ran nearly every day from 5-8 easy miles with some strides thrown in at end it easy run or some hill repeats covering 40-60 seconds and jog recovery.

    Squinn you probably have info overload at this stage! I’d get a plan together be it a new approach from previous one you followed or online coach and run with it. Your 2 sessions plus a long run to me just seems to be too many hard runs rather than banking miles and building a good mix of endurance and required speed.
    Haha that's the thing. I've a hamstring injury I'm nursing so I have all this running time to spend thinking hence all the questions. Your thinking seems to be that I should focus more on endurance than speed. My idea is that I can run 30 miles per week until the middle of January and do plenty of speed within that. Then I build up the miles with one tempo run that I'll alter from week to week. Other runs medium distance and speed with strides/surges. 
    I hope you feel you're finally getting through this thick skull!


  • #2450
    RayCun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    So on the Thursday would you recommend that I maybe do intervals some weeks and marathon paced longer runs others?

    I'd recommend that you work off a plan that has a mix of different runs, and is aimed at the marathon. You could get that plan in a club, in a book, or from an online coach like Testostercone, but it should be progressive and marathon-specific.
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    I am considering joining a new club but work and home commitments mean I can do little training at the group times.

    I would join a club, even if you think you'll only get to train with them once a week or once a fortnight (though I suppose then it depends on how expensive that club is!)


  • #2451
    neilc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭neilc


    Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
    McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
    hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
    TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
    FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
    AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
    Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
    MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
    snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
    EC1000|17:18|N/a|37:38|61:45|1:22:08|3:07:XX|Rotterdam 2018
    rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
    davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:29:18|3:14:18|
    healy1835|18:58|30:55|38:56|1:05:52|1:25:52|3:15:26|Rotterdam 2018
    Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|2:59:10|TBC 2018
    psalm69|18:12|32:53|38:43|1:13:49|1:26:51|3:12:07|Rotterdam 2018
    Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
    Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
    Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
    Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
    CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
    zulutango|18:46|n/a|39:01|n/a|1:25:28|4:33:xx|Seville 2018
    Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
    El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
    Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
    ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
    Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
    rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
    Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
    neilc|19:19|32:30|39:56|1:10:37|1:29:14|3:10:28|DCM 2018
    SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
    MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
    FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

    Hopefully London in April is a good stepping stone to a shot at it in Dublin next year. Itziger achievement at 51 gives me hope!


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