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The Sub 3 Support Thread

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 davedanon


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    When is trim 10m? And what is P+D?

    Pfitzinger & Daniels. Running gurus and authors of Advanced Marathoning, one of the bibles of the sport.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,776 ✭✭✭ squinn2912


    davedanon wrote: »
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    When is trim 10m? And what is P+D?

    Pfitzinger & Daniels. Running gurus and authors of Advanced Marathoning, one of the bibles of the sport.

    Haha! I have it yea awesome book


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,799 ✭✭✭ OOnegative


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    When is trim 10m? And what is P+D?

    Trim 10 mile is 4th of February 2018.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 610 kerrylad1


    tomred1N wrote: »
    Hi there , as a former logger ( time constraints :rolleyes: ) on here I think it only fair I report back in on this thread as it provided invaluable support and knowledge for me over the years when sub 3 was only a pipe dream.
    I found this thread so good I have read it twice over time and picked up a lot of tips and guides. The table I tried to update from almost 18 months ago was when I really began to think of an assault on the sub 3. I needed to address half time first though as it was 1:28:30 or thereabouts for 3 years. Got injured trying last winter and out till April this year. In hindsight rest may have been a benefit as missed London 2017 marathon due to severe ITBS.
    Good summer training though , highlight 18:30 5K and then in September in charleville out of the blue I did low 1:24. Still didn't think it was low enough to go sub 3 especially when I looked at 2016 low 1:24 results and how they fared n DCM16. Most were 3:05 - 3:10 all on target at halfway but most fading at the end.
    Was unsure but prompting of club members who notice things I didn't suggested I was in shape for it.

    Anyway day of race I decided to ease into it, and make a decision as things went. How I would feel on Chesterfield Avenue would be a big indicator. In a former sub 3:10 ( 2015) attempt I backed off here as knew pace was unsustainable. At the time it a was correct decision. a safe 3:14 was result.
    Anyway this year after a conservative start for 3 miles ( and feeling sh!te) about a minute behind 3 hours pacers I looked at watch going up chesterfield and it was 6:25. I had to ask another runner and he confirmed. I wasn't even breathing . By 10K I was bang on 3 hour pace. Knew I was in form. Handy till halfway but through in 1:29:30. was still good bit behind pacers on clock time so made decision to continue handy till mile 15 at walkinstown roundabout. Then on my favourite part of course I upped pace a bit to track down pacers. Caught them on mile 19 at the timing matt. It was a nice feeling to have to slow down to stay with them. Knew then sub 3 was in the bag and decided to ride with front pacer till top of roebuck hill. Pacer was nice guy, probably on here, never got his name.
    Top of roebuck hill I decided to drive on, saw two runners with purple tops away in distance, caught them passing about 50 runners in a 6:30 mile and continued passing all way to finish. Pace levelled off again to around 6:45 but enjoyed the run in and was fresh as a daisy finishing in 2:57:55

    I started on 2012 novice thread with a 4:16 marathon. That day my goal was not to walk and say I ran ( jog, move , crawl but not walk :)) It was my hardest marathon but in truth was the basis for what has followed. Never run one unless you've done the training and never let the mind tell you walk.
    This was my 7th marathon and 7th PB. ( I have never walked a foot in any of them !!) It was by far the easiest one I have ran. The margins for improvement get tighter but for me the marathon differs from any other running event because it involves so many parameters that can be improved without natural running ability like say natural speed. You can eat less, sleep more, train smarter, run slower , join a club , read logs like Krusty's
    Sub 3 seems fast but in the whole scheme of things its not. Its hard, sure only 2% get there but so much of that is knowledge and that's why I highly recommend this thread and the numerous posters who have contributed their views and experiences. Not pointing in any direction but if a former 16.5 stone , chain smoking , Guinness guzzling athlete can do it any one can :)
    Big congratulations to you man.great report.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,137 El Caballo


    Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
    McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
    TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
    FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
    AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
    Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
    MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
    snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
    rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
    davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
    Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
    Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
    Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
    Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
    Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
    CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
    Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
    El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
    Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
    ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
    Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
    rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
    Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
    SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
    MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
    FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

    Well done Tom. Tasty ol progression from when this table was first started:)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭ rooneyjm


    Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
    McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
    TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
    FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
    AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
    Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
    MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
    snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
    rooneyjm|18.51|31.34|39:20|1:08:17|1:29:37|3:10:17|TBC 2017
    davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
    Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
    Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
    Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
    Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
    Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
    CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
    Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
    El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
    Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
    ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
    Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
    rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
    Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
    SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
    MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
    FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist[/TABLE

    3 updates
    5k down from 19.16 to 18.51
    5mile 31.34
    Marathon down from 3.23 to 3.10


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭ hot buttered scones


    Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
    McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
    hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
    TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
    FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
    AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
    Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
    MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
    snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
    rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
    davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
    Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
    Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
    Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
    Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
    Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
    Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
    CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
    Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
    El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
    Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
    ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
    Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
    rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
    Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
    SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
    MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
    FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

    So - I'm not sure about the "PBs" - I've put in Strava generated splits for 10k and 10 mile taken from the Charleville Half because they are better than my official times (10k =41:19 on a hilly course, 10 mile = 1:08:53 from last year). I haven't race a 5 mile since 2015 so I've left that out (34:29). What can I say, I just can't resist a table.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,776 ✭✭✭ squinn2912


    Now that I know what P&D is has anyone used the Advanced Marathoning training schedules? I took a leaf through them tonight and for me the 55m 18 week programme seems heavy on miles but low on speed sessions. I read it a couple of years ago and never really followed it, though found the advice in ch 1/2 excellent. Any thoughts?


  • Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭ noelearly


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Now that I know what P&D is has anyone used the Advanced Marathoning training schedules? I took a leaf through them tonight and for me the 55m 18 week programme seems heavy on miles but low on speed sessions. I read it a couple of years ago and never really followed it, though found the advice in ch 1/2 excellent. Any thoughts?

    Going to keep it short here as it's late. It's brilliant, has totally transformed my running. Enough speed in it too, don't need much over 26.2.


  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭ jonnner


    I remember seeing this thread title a few years ago and thinking "holy **** normal people can run a sub 3 marathon?!:eek:"
    I read through it and picked up a hell of alot of advice, which got me my sub 3 two years ago. I've further improved since then and am now running well under 2:40. Hopefully I can add something to thread with a brief summary of what I learned about marathon training myself over the last few years............

    P&D Advanced Marathoning
    This has been the Bible for me. The book explains things well and the plans are easy to understand and follow.
    (I will propably try something else for next training cycle though as I have now used them all and might require a different stimulus)

    Recovery Runs
    I run my recovery runs slower than almost every runner I follow on Strava (Usually slower than 5min/km). I do try keep my form good during these runs though, don't get sloppy.

    HRM
    I use a HRM for all Tempo and Interval sessions, and some long runs. I know I'm running the correct intensity that P&D ascribe even if I can't match the target pace on a given day (could be due to weather, an undulating route or accumulated fatigue for example).

    Consistency
    Stick to the plan and don't miss runs. Try not get injured. Do as much mileage as you can but add it slowly and gradually.

    Ancillary
    I don't stretch. I start every run slowly and try finish slowly. I've never been injured, only small niggles. I do 10-15 minutes core work maybe 2-3 times a week.

    Lifestyle
    Get as much sleep as possible (really important as the mileage increases). Keep your weight down. Try and avoid proccessed foods. Beer hasn't been a hinderance to me at all. I drink quite a lot. Try not to drink so much in one sitting that you get hungover though.

    Mindset
    How much do you really want a sub 3? How proud will you be? What will it feel like when you approach that finish line and see the clock showing 2:58?
    Think of these things often and daydream about that clock and finish moment (become obssessed if necessary :P).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,379 ✭✭✭✭ Krusty_Clown


    jonnner wrote: »
    Think of these things often and daydream about that clock and finish moment (become obssessed if necessary :P).
    Are you me? :eek:


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,319 Mod ✭✭✭✭ TFBubendorfer


    jonnner wrote: »
    Think of these things often and daydream about that clock and finish moment (become obssessed if necessary :P).
    Are you me? :eek:

    Surely we all do that. The amount of time I've broken the tape in my daydreams ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭ PaulieYifter


    In the absence of another log I thought I'd share some sub 3 news here.

    A friend of mine ran 2:59 in New York on Sunday - his 6th sub 3.
    What was significant about that is that he has now run sub 3 in each of the "major" marathons: Boston, Chicago, London, Berlin, Tokyo and now New York. The journey started in Boston in 2013.

    I'm amazed he was able to get himself to the start line healthy and in sub 3 shape for each attempt.
    His training volume is way lower than anybody here but he says in recent years it helps him stay injury free so he actually gets to the start!

    The training consists of 4 runs per week: 2 of them 5k, 1 of them 10-15k and 1 long run. His peak week was 57k (5k + 10k + 5k + 37k). All of his runs are relatively fast though - MP to steady with the occasional 5k being a good clip in a Parkrun.

    I've told him a sub 3 in Longford is way tougher than those fancy marathons ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 davedanon


    In the absence of another log I thought I'd share some sub 3 news here.

    A friend of mine ran 2:59 in New York on Sunday - his 6th sub 3.
    What was significant about that is that he has now run sub 3 in each of the "major" marathons: Boston, Chicago, London, Berlin, Tokyo and now New York. The journey started in Boston in 2013.

    I'm amazed he was able to get himself to the start line healthy and in sub 3 shape for each attempt.
    His training volume is way lower than anybody here but he says in recent years it helps him stay injury free so he actually gets to the start!

    The training consists of 4 runs per week: 2 of them 5k, 1 of them 10-15k and 1 long run. His peak week was 57k (5k + 10k + 5k + 37k). All of his runs are relatively fast though - MP to steady with the occasional 5k being a good clip in a Parkrun.

    I've told him a sub 3 in Longford is way tougher than those fancy marathons ;)

    Training orthodoxy behoves me to say: imagine what he'd run with proper training


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭ zulutango


    My training regimen this year is four per week (sometimes 3) and maxed at 40 miles per week, and most of my runs are slow (with a few fartlek and interval sessions every now and then). My times from every distance from 5k to HM have plummeted since I adopted this approach. I think above all it has led to consistency, which is something that wasn't there in the past. I'm on a 1:25 HM now and I hope in touching distance of 3 hours for a full marathon (Seville in February). I think consistency trumps mileage hands down. If you pick up an injury you're losing training days, but it's a double effect because it will take you a while to get back to where you were before the injury. 2 weeks not being able to run might equate to 4 weeks until you're back to where you were in terms of fitness. It's perhaps counter-intuitive but you can achieve greater fitness and speed if you do less training.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,379 ✭✭✭✭ Krusty_Clown


    A friend of mine ran 2:59 in New York on Sunday - his 6th sub 3.
    I may take some flack for this opinion, but I don't believe that generally speaking*, there is any great achievement in running multiple sub-3 marathons (just as running a 2:38 marathon 6 months after running a 2:30 represents the opposite of achievement - it represents dis-improvement). In my opinion, training for and running a sub-3 marathon is a great achievement, but continuing to do so once you have brought yourself up to that level is not a mark of progress, but one of consistency. Consistency is admirable - but it's not great achievement.

    * I say 'generally speaking' as if three hours is the limit of one's potential, then it is indeed a great achievement to be able to maintain a standard where you can continue to deliver to your max.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭ zulutango


    Consistency is step along the way to achievement. For many (me included) it's an achievement in itself.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭ robinph


    jonnner wrote: »
    What will it feel like when you approach that finish line and see the clock showing 2:58?
    Think of these things often and daydream about that clock and finish moment (become obssessed if necessary :P).

    See the clock in the distance, yes, I'm finally going to break that time, hurray, don't trip up, wipe the snot from your face, keep running, remember not to trip up, now try to look like you are running easy, smile, yes I've made it with the clock still showing a number showing a 2, stop the watch on the line.

    Doh!!! Now after all that I've just got a picture of me crossing the line holding a watch and looking knackered and you can't see my face, I was meant to be running across the line arms aloft and smiling. Going to have to do it again now.
    :eek:

    It's a tricky business approaching the finish line for that photo. You need to hope there isn't going to be someone else throwing up in the background of your picture and remember to ignore your watch. Yes you'll loose a couple of seconds on the time you upload to Strava, but you need to forget about that for the crossing the line moment and concentrate on looking your best.
    I make use of the multiple finish chutes at London Marathon and tend to am for the furthest away one when going round that last corner, or the one that looks like it will have the fewest other people crossing the line at the same time as me and getting in the way of my pictures.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,379 ✭✭✭✭ Krusty_Clown


    zulutango wrote: »
    Consistency is step along the way to achievement. For many (me included) it's an achievement in itself.
    Consistency is an important ingredient in endurance-running success. If consistency is not achievable, then there are bigger issues that need to be addressed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭ RayCun


    I may take some flack for this opinion, but I don't believe that generally speaking*, there is any great achievement in running multiple sub-3 marathons

    there was a guy who ran 50? 100? sub 3 marathons in a year, I remember him being interviewed on marathon talk. Driving around the UK and northern Europe to get to them. Now that was impressive. The kind of impressive that has you backing away slowly and looking for exit routes.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,379 ✭✭✭✭ Krusty_Clown


    RayCun wrote: »
    there was a guy who ran 50? 100? sub 3 marathons in a year, I remember him being interviewed on marathon talk. Driving around the UK and northern Europe to get to them. Now that was impressive. The kind of impressive that has you backing away slowly and looking for exit routes.
    Totally agree. I think it's impressive to complete all of the marathon majors (it show's dedication). I also think it's impressive to be able to juggle four balls. But the 10th time you show me that four-ball juggle trick - I wanna see five balls. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ ooter


    The training consists of 4 runs per week: 2 of them 5k, 1 of them 10-15k and 1 long run. His peak week was 57k (5k + 10k + 5k + 37k). All of his runs are relatively fast though - MP to steady with the occasional 5k being a good clip in a Parkrun.

    That's some going, fair play to him.
    Not jealous at all here. :)


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,319 Mod ✭✭✭✭ TFBubendorfer


    His training volume is way lower than anybody here but he says in recent years it helps him stay injury free so he actually gets to the start!

    My first guess would be that he used to run a lot more in the past and has therefore already built up his aerobic base. Once you have that it doesn't take a lot of miles to maintain it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ bigslice


    Breaking sub3 makes it easier to do it again and again. I remember trying vainly to break sub20 for a 5k, got close on number of times and eventually broke it and then Just could do it every time. It became the norm and after doing it first by seconds, weeks later smashed past it.

    Sub3hr on a bigger scale but it’s the mental challenge, knowing what it takes and that you can do it. I was lucky enough to do it first time in DCM 2016 and it was a barrier broken. Limerick17 saw 2.55 broken and DCM17 was 2.48.

    It’s knowing what is needed in training and on the day that is a massive starting point.

    And on reflection, with structured training I didn’t find the training or the run any harder from sub3hr to sub2.50. Both are tough and take serious effort but I didnt feel any different during it after been honest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,776 ✭✭✭ squinn2912


    bigslice wrote: »
    Breaking sub3 makes it easier to do it again and again. I remember trying vainly to break sub20 for a 5k, got close on number of times and eventually broke it and then Just could do it every time. It became the norm and after doing it first by seconds, weeks later smashed past it.

    Sub3hr on a bigger scale but it’s the mental challenge, knowing what it takes and that you can do it. I was lucky enough to do it first time in DCM 2016  and it was a barrier broken. Limerick17 saw 2.55 broken and DCM17 was 2.48.

    It’s knowing what is needed in training and on the day that is a massive starting point.

    And on reflection, with structured training I didn’t find the training or the run any harder from sub3hr to sub2.50. Both are tough and take serious effort but I didnt feel any different during it after been honest.
    Can you go into some of the specifics of your training between the two? I've been able to maintain my sub3 pace but not improve it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,776 ✭✭✭ squinn2912


    bigslice wrote: »
    Breaking sub3 makes it easier to do it again and again. I remember trying vainly to break sub20 for a 5k, got close on number of times and eventually broke it and then Just could do it every time. It became the norm and after doing it first by seconds, weeks later smashed past it.

    Sub3hr on a bigger scale but it’s the mental challenge, knowing what it takes and that you can do it. I was lucky enough to do it first time in DCM 2016  and it was a barrier broken. Limerick17 saw 2.55 broken and DCM17 was 2.48.

    It’s knowing what is needed in training and on the day that is a massive starting point.

    And on reflection, with structured training I didn’t find the training or the run any harder from sub3hr to sub2.50. Both are tough and take serious effort but I didnt feel any different during it after been honest.
    Can you go into some of the specifics of your training between the two? I've been able to maintain my sub3 pace but not improve it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭ PaulieYifter


    My first guess would be that he used to run a lot more in the past and has therefore already built up his aerobic base. Once you have that it doesn't take a lot of miles to maintain it.

    His mileage has always been fairly low. No more than 70k per week.
    He has taken an approach that ensures he gets to the start line.

    No doubt he could aim for sub 2:50 or better but I'm guessing his main objective was to get the 6 majors done in sub 3 so that's what he trained for.

    I must find out was he a runner earlier in life (I'm only working off the last 7 years of info).


  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ bigslice


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Can you go into some of the specifics of your training between the two? I've been able to maintain my sub3 pace but not improve it.

    In summary (as on phone and short on time), it was about increasing the mileage, say 10% from the sub3hr block, and starting tempos again at MP pace at low mileage with gradual build up.

    From memory, the first phase of training had a lot of shorter intervals, 1km, 1m/2m reps at below marathon pace along side slower, longer runs. Next block started on tempo runs at marathon pace, say 5 miles and a weekly build up to I think 9 miles. Last tempo run had a block of 5x3m at MP pace with 4min jog recovery between.

    Training was mainly 1 speed session, tempo run, 3 easy runs and a long run at about 20/30 sec above MP pace with last 3/4 miles a lift in pace. I think I did about 5 Long runs for 20/21 miles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,776 ✭✭✭ squinn2912


    Many thanks! The more I read on this thread the more I'm questioning my own training. I think I've been slaughtering myself.
    In two sub3 runs I would have done 6-10 mile tempo runs but the pace would be 6:20-6:30 per mile i.e. 20-30 seconds quicker than goal pace. Then in the speed session either 10 repeats of 800m in 2:50 with 70 seconds recovery or 5-6 mile repeats in 5:50 with 2 mins recovery.
    From your contributions and reading over the plans in Advanced Marathoning it seems as though I'd be much better off running at marathon pace and then interval work at 5k-10k pace but increasing the miles. I couldn't believe how little hard running was in the plans but of course I rarely come close to doing 50 miles per week and that is the upper end of what I'd do.
    Feels like right now it's a leap of faith and try one of those plans or go back to tried and trusted 40-45 miles per week but with faster hard running sessions. Any one able to help me make my decision? I'm managing a niggle right now but want to make a plan to take me to the end of January and then get into a proper marathon programme for a marathon in May.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ bigslice


    For what it’s worth, I stagnated on P&D 55miles plans for round 3.15-3.20 marathons. I found too many of the runs one paced and stepping away from it the main thing I noticed was increased MP miles and harder speed sessions.

    On the sub2.50 block I was finding the longer runs a bit too easy and was finishing like a train. Reviewed this with the coach and he said to make the weekday easier runs a bit faster and increased the week days miles, going into the long run a bit more fatigued. It helped and the effort levels soon went up to finish out the long runs. Definitely stood to me.


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