GO'H National Champion

TheBazman · 01-11-2017 11:00pm #1

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/news/gary-ohanlon-is-irish-national-marathon-champion-2017

RuMan · 01-11-2017 11:19pm

What a shambles, ruined it for both athletes really. Thought Gary should have got it but not getting it on sun probably ruined it for him anyway.

ultrapercy · 01-11-2017 11:22pm

RuMan wrote: »

What a shambles, ruined it for both athletes really. Thought Gary should have got it but not getting it on sun probably ruined it for him anyway.

Might take a bit of the gloss off it but definitely doesnt ruin it. You can choose how you handle situations and if I was him Id choose to be proud and delighted.

podgec10 · 01-11-2017 11:52pm

Fair play and well done to Gary.

Does that say 6 months continuous living in Ireland gets someone qualified to compete in the national marathon championship?

RuMan · 02-11-2017 12:00am

podgec10 wrote: »

Fair play and well done to Gary.

Does that say 6 months continuous living in Ireland gets someone qualified to compete in the national marathon championship?

"Unbroken "

Anyway delighted for Gary

Murph_D · 02-11-2017 12:05am

"unbroken six months residency in Ireland" is pretty ambiguous as you don't normally lose resident status easily (e.g. by just going on holidays). I suppose the AI have their own definition of what this actually means. :rolleyes:

walshb · 02-11-2017 12:07am

FFS..could they not have sorted the rules before awarding the Kenyan the title...

ooter · 02-11-2017 12:40am

How come Freddie wasn't eligible in 2015 but was on Sunday?
https://twitter.com/irishathletics/status/658603635128016897

Murph_D · 02-11-2017 12:42am

ooter wrote: »

How come Freddie wasn't eligible in 2015 but was on Sunday?
https://twitter.com/irishathletics/status/658603635128016897

Because they changed the rule in 2016.

Van.Bosch · 02-11-2017 12:48am

i assume the singlet issue was a non issue then?

ThisRegard · 02-11-2017 12:58am

Murph_D wrote: »

Because they changed the rule in 2016.

Is it an Athletics Ireland rule or an IAAF one?

Murph_D · 02-11-2017 1:02am

ThisRegard wrote: »

Is it an Athletics Ireland rule or an IAAF one?

Athletics Ireland rules on eligibility to be national title holder.

jrkb · 02-11-2017 1:02am

Van.Bosch wrote: »

i assume the singlet issue was a non issue then?

Heard because its a a mass participation event and not a stand alone championship event the vest issue doesnt apply..not 100% on that tho.

Murph_D · 02-11-2017 1:10am

jrkb wrote: »

Heard because its a a mass participation event and not a stand alone championship event the vest issue doesnt apply..not 100% on that tho.

Where did you hear that? Not stated in AI rules for road marathons, and there is only one national marathon, that has always been a mass-participation event. So it's unlikely that that logic would hold up, even (or especially) in the pub!

Chivito550 · 02-11-2017 1:15am

Funny thing with all this is that if Freddy came second he’d keep his silver medal as these “rules” only apply to national title holder. By winning he ends up with nothing, and allows the 4th place runner (Scullion) to take bronze (who would have ended up with nothing had Freddy been 2nd.

What a mess.

GOH should be DQed too for breaking the rules. If he can wear what he likes, then we all can too.

jrkb · 02-11-2017 1:19am

Murph_D wrote: »

Where did you hear that? Not stated in AI rules for road marathons, and there is only one national marathon, that has always been a mass-participation event. So it's unlikely that that logic would hold up, even (or especially) in the pub!

Well it hasnt always been mass participation, in the past it was a stand alone race,but since its now part of DCM much like the nat half is now in the rock and roll and the nat 10k is in the great ire run.like I say not 100% on this just hearing it from lots of runners.

ger664 · 02-11-2017 1:26am

Chivito550 wrote: »

GOH should be DQed too for breaking the rules. If he can wear what he likes, then we all can too.

I would agree on this. You should always wear your club vest and wear it with pride even if it chaffes the tits off you.

They should have DQed Gary at the same point as Freddie but now they will most likely do the presentation and then DQ him the day after just to make a complete and utter balls of it.

Chivito550 · 02-11-2017 1:37am

6 months unbroken residency rule is laughable. Say a French person moves to Ireland to work. He’s a triple jumper. About 3 weeks before the national T&F championships he goes home to France for his sisters wedding. He is now ineligible from all national competition for 6 months.

How utterly ridiculous and discriminatory is that.

Residency should be 183 days of the previous 365. AAI are making it up as they go along. I hope Freddy appeals.

ThisRegard · 02-11-2017 1:40am

Chivito550 wrote: »

6 months unbroken residency rule is laughable.

It is, but not for the reasons you outline.

Chivito550 wrote: »

How utterly ridiculous and discriminatory is that.

You could argue the opposite. Someone starts as a kid and works hard through to senior level in Ireland but someone blows in for a few months and can be Irish national champion?

Something like the IRFU's residency rule I think would be better.

Chivito550 · 02-11-2017 1:52am

ThisRegard wrote: »

It is, but not for the reasons you outline.

You could argue the opposite. Someone starts as a kid and works hard through to senior level in Ireland but someone blows in for a few months and can be Irish national champion?

Something like the IRFU's residency rule I think would be better.

The way I look at it, being Irish champion is not the same as representing Ireland in international competition. If you reside in Ireland and compete for an Irish club, then you are part of the Irish athletics community and deserve a chance to compete in the national championships.

In Australia I was eligible to compete in all championships. I never had any intention to get an Australian passport. But I did live there and I was part of a local club, so why shouldn’t I be eligible?

It would be easier to take this stuff seriously if AAI applied their own rules consistently but they don’t. Jeremy Philips is the ultimate example of this. Freddy is 10,000 times more involved in Irish athletics than him, who flew in for a week or two. Yet Philips is the one who gets to be national champion. How on earth is that fair?

Why have rules if you’re only going to apply them sometimes?

Murph_D · 02-11-2017 2:18am

Chivito550 wrote: »

GOH should be DQed too for breaking the rules. If he can wear what he likes, then we all can too.

Well this keeps being said, but it is clear in the rules that an athlete can be exempted from this. GOH, I have read elesewhere, has claimed that this exemption was granted at elites meeting.

The circumstances under which an exemption might be granted are not specified, however, which is not very transparent - can they be made up on the spot?

Or maybe they are - in an updated version of the rules that AI hasn’t bothered to put online.

RacoonQueen · 02-11-2017 8:05am

jrkb wrote: »

Heard because its a a mass participation event and not a stand alone championship event the vest issue doesnt apply..not 100% on that tho.

jrkb wrote: »

Well it hasnt always been mass participation, in the past it was a stand alone race,but since its now part of DCM much like the nat half is now in the rock and roll and the nat 10k is in the great ire run.like I say not 100% on this just hearing it from lots of runners.

No, this is the exact part of the rule they changed from what I can see. If this was the case the National 10k, National Half and National Marathon would not require athletes to wear club singlets which would be ridiculous. They are team competitions, you need to know who you are racing against. That would be like footballers getting onto the pitch wearing whatever they wanted.

Chivito550 wrote: »

The way I look at it, being Irish champion is not the same as representing Ireland in international competition. If you reside in Ireland and compete for an Irish club, then you are part of the Irish athletics community and deserve a chance to compete in the national championships.

Agreed. If you are racing here, training here and contributing to the community you should be eligible. Don't know Freddy's situation or what else other than running he does here, but, he has been racing here for years and was previously a member of a different Irish club - so seems to me he is an active part of the athletics community.
This has been very badly handled by Athletics Ireland.

The Bin Man · 02-11-2017 8:52am

Murph_D wrote: »

Well this keeps being said, but it is clear in the rules that an athlete can be exempted from this. GOH, I have read elesewhere, has claimed that this exemption was granted at elites meeting.

The circumstances under which an exemption might be granted are not specified, however, which is not very transparent - can they be made up on the spot?

Or maybe they are - in an updated version of the rules that AI hasn’t bothered to put online.

If that's the case, then GOH should be national champion (according to the rules).

event · 02-11-2017 9:08am

Chivito550 wrote: »

6 months unbroken residency rule is laughable. Say a French person moves to Ireland to work. He’s a triple jumper. About 3 weeks before the national T&F championships he goes home to France for his sisters wedding. He is now ineligible from all national competition for 6 months.

How utterly ridiculous and discriminatory is that.

Residency should be 183 days of the previous 365. AAI are making it up as they go along. I hope Freddy appeals.

What would he appeal? He didn't meet the criteria

Duanington · 02-11-2017 9:26am

So 6 months unbroken residency ....judging by Strava, both Scullion and Sergiu have been away for substantial amounts of time training abroad over the last few months, breaking their 6 months residency....would that have been an issue for either of them if they won? Should it be an issue now that they are bumped up the medal ranking?

Its actually embarrassing trying to explain the events of DCM to the same people ( in work) that I have been trying to get to join a club for the last few months.

Chivito550 · 02-11-2017 9:29am

Duanington wrote: »

So 6 months unbroken residency ....judging by Strava, both Scullion and Sergiu have been away for substantial amounts of time training abroad over the last few months, breaking their 6 months residency....would that have been an issue for either of them if they won? Should it be an issue now that they are bumped up the medal ranking?

Its actually embarrassing trying to explain the events of DCM to the same people ( in work) that I have been trying to get to join a club for the last few months.

Well they are citizens so it doesn’t matter for them.

Residency should simply be 6 of the previous 12 months. Expecting somebody to not leave the country for a few days in the 6 months leading up to a race is laughable.

RacoonQueen · 02-11-2017 9:30am

Duanington wrote: »

So 6 months unbroken residency ....judging by Strava, both Scullion and Sergiu have been away for substantial amounts of time training abroad over the last few months, breaking their 6 months residency....would that have been an issue for either of them if they won? Should it be an issue now that they are bumped up the medal ranking?

No, because Sergiu and Scullion have Irish passports or can get Irish passports while Freddy can't.

Duanington · 02-11-2017 9:36am

RacoonQueen wrote: »

No, because Sergiu and Scullion have Irish passports or can get Irish passports while Freddy can't.

Thanks, I wasn't sure - so in a sport where altitude\warm weather training is the norm...while training for DCM, you can only take part in that if you've got the right colour passport.

What a strange mess this really is - while I thought GOH's comments after the race took away from his own (incredible) performance, this whole fiasco is damaging and embarrassing

ThisRegard · 02-11-2017 9:41am

Duanington wrote: »

you can only take part in that if you've got the right colour passport.

Well that's not true.

Duanington · 02-11-2017 9:44am

ThisRegard wrote: »

Well that's not true.

I meant leave the country for altitude training\warm weather training....which I assume is what broke Freddy's 6 months up ( could be wrong there of course)

ooter · 02-11-2017 9:48am

Chivito550 wrote: »

Funny thing with all this is that if Freddy came second he’d keep his silver medal as these “rules” only apply to national title holder.

If that's true it's pretty ridiculous.

ted1 · 02-11-2017 9:54am

Duanington wrote: »

Thanks, I wasn't sure - so in a sport where altitude\warm weather training is the norm...while training for DCM, you can only take part in that if you've got the right colour passport.

It’s a National title. There’s a clue in the name.

Trying to imply racism is childish and pathetic, there’s plenty of people of different races who are Irish Nationals

RacoonQueen · 02-11-2017 9:55am

Duanington wrote: »

I meant leave the country for altitude training\warm weather training....which I assume is what broke Freddy's 6 months up ( could be wrong there of course)

I questioned whether it had something to do with the type of visa he has. If he is on a 90 day visa he would have to leave and come back in to get visa renewed, I think? Not sure if he studys/works here or what so have no idea what visa he has but could be the case here that he had to leave the country.

Chivito550 · 02-11-2017 9:57am

Duanington wrote: »

Thanks, I wasn't sure - so in a sport where altitude\warm weather training is the norm...while training for DCM, you can only take part in that if you've got the right colour passport.

What a strange mess this really is - while I thought GOH's comments after the race took away from his own (incredible) performance, this whole fiasco is damaging and embarrassing

His comments have taken the gloss off his run for me. His comment on Facebook implying that Freddy is dishonest is irrepairable in my opinion. Sad to see athletes take pot shots like that.

ThisRegard · 02-11-2017 9:59am

You can understand while not justifying what he said at the time.

The problem I think we all agree is Athletics Ireland for even letting it get that far.

Duanington · 02-11-2017 10:01am

ted1 wrote: »

It’s a National title. There’s a clue in the name.

Trying to imply racism is childish and pathetic, there’s plenty of people of different races who are Irish Nationals

Where exactly did I imply racism? ( although the opening line of your response seems to a little bit of that in itself )

I'm saying that this strikes me as yet another rule that leaves the whole thing wide open to interpretation and loopholes. As with any set of rules, consistency is key and this particular organisation seem to be consistently inconsistent!

Murph_D · 02-11-2017 10:24am

The Bin Man wrote: »

If that's the case, then GOH should be national champion (according to the rules).

Yes. And he is.

We are disappearing down rabbit holes here in the absence of any actual copy of the residency rule as adopted in 2016.

In any case, resident status does not normally imply continuous presence. So what does 'unbroken residence' mean? I'd love to see the actual rule book. I'd imagine this whole area is open to dispute, and I foresee plenty of disputes and arbitration ahead as definitions of 'resident' are bandied about, never mind definitions of 'irish' or 'national' champion.

It's still not clear whether Freddy can score for club, for instance. Only that he apparently can't hold the national title. As a team scorer, he could possibly contribute as the club is the title holder, not the athletes in the team. I think. I suppose we will know when next version of results is posted.

TFBubendorfer · 02-11-2017 10:25am

Chivito550 wrote: »

The way I look at it, being Irish champion is not the same as representing Ireland in international competition. If you reside in Ireland and compete for an Irish club, then you are part of the Irish athletics community and deserve a chance to compete in the national championships.

I'd agree with that (then again, I would) but there are plenty of people who don't, to the point where a non-native athlete can get personal abuse for running in an Irish championship.

ThisRegard · 02-11-2017 10:29am

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I'd agree with that (then again, I would) but there are plenty of people who don't, to the point where a non-native athlete can get personal abuse for running in an Irish championship.

You're going to the extreme there. I don't agree with the 6 month rule, but it's nothing to do with race or nationality.

People who abuse a "non-native" athlete will abuse anyone for not being Irish, the fact they may be running in the Irish Championship is just an excuse to do so.

Krusty_Clown · 02-11-2017 10:30am

Predictably, all results from Sunday (admittedly provisional) have disappeared from the AAI website, while they figure out how the hell they are going to work out who came where in the national and team results.

<grabs popcorn - waits for next sh1tstorm>.

RayCun · 02-11-2017 10:32am

I don't think the rule is consistent or difficult to apply - "6 months unbroken residence before the competition" is not ambiguous.

I don't think it's a great rule, too short a period while also too strict, but it is clear. Something like the ordinarily resident definition used for tax, would be better. Longer period of residence required, but gaps allowed.

RayCun · 02-11-2017 10:33am

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Predictably, all results from Sunday (admittedly provisional) have disappeared from the AAI website, while they figure out how the hell they are going to work out who came where in the national and team results.

<grabs popcorn - waits for next sh1tstorm>.

Drive over and collect your medal quick before they're locked away in a vault pending a court case :pac:

TFBubendorfer · 02-11-2017 10:36am

ThisRegard wrote: »

You're going to the extreme there. I don't agree with the 6 month rule, but it's nothing to do with race or nationality.

People who abuse a "non-native" athlete will abuse anyone for not being Irish, the fact they may be running in the Irish Championship is just an excuse to do so.

I'm not going to the extreme, I am speaking from experience.

Murph_D · 02-11-2017 10:40am

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think the rule is consistent or difficult to apply - "6 months unbroken residence before the competition" is not ambiguous.

I don't think it's a great rule, too short a period while also too strict, but it is clear. Something like the ordinarily resident definition used for tax, would be better. Longer period of residence required, but gaps allowed.

I think it is ambiguous, as 'residence' and 'presence' are not the same thing, i.e. you can leave a country temporarily without losing your resident status - which I suppose is why the original 'ordinarily resident' wording was adopted (but since changed).

Agree that rules akin to tax residence would be far more appropriate - present in Ireland for 183 days during the year.

ThisRegard · 02-11-2017 10:40am

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I'm not going to the extreme, I am speaking from experience.

Someone who abuses an athlete for not being Irish is the extreme. Because you've experienced it doesn't normalise it.

Duanington · 02-11-2017 10:42am

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think the rule is consistent or difficult to apply - "6 months unbroken residence before the competition" is not ambiguous.

I don't think it's a great rule, too short a period while also too strict, but it is clear. Something like the ordinarily resident definition used for tax, would be better. Longer period of residence required, but gaps allowed.

But the rule is surely bigger than one line ? "6 months unbroken residence before the competition" looks pretty straightforward on the face of it....but then we know 2 of the top 3 finishers didn't meet that criteria ( by travelling abroad for training...which is the norm in this sport, in this country).....which is ok because they're Irish citizens. That's inconsistent straight away, it applies to one set of athletes and not another

RayCun · 02-11-2017 10:48am

Duanington wrote: »

But the rule is surely bigger than one line ? "6 months unbroken residence before the competition" looks pretty straightforward on the face of it....but then we know 2 of the top 3 finishers didn't meet that criteria ( by travelling abroad for training...which is the norm in this sport, in this country).....which is ok because they're Irish citizens. That's inconsistent straight away, it applies to one set of athletes and not another

That's still not really ambiguous
You can qualify by being eligible for an Irish passport.
If you're not eligible for an Irish passport, you can qualify by living in Ireland for the 6 months before the race.

"For an athlete to be either a Title Holder/Medallist ( to be defined as referring to top 3 finishers or top 3 winning team members , in track
and field - outdoor and/or indoor - cross country or road ) and/or the holder of a Championship Record (individual or team), the athlete must be a holder of, or be eligible to hold, an Irish passport and/or must reside on the island of Ireland ( for a minimum of 6 consecutive months immediately prior to the relevant Championships) and must be a member of an affiliated club on the island of Ireland."

It's a short checklist

ThisRegard · 02-11-2017 10:49am

Duanington wrote: »

That's inconsistent straight away, it applies to one set of athletes and not another

It also leaves open the possibility for anyone to come over, such as on work placement, become champion and head home shortly after never to return.

Duanington · 02-11-2017 10:57am

ThisRegard wrote: »

It also leaves open the possibility for anyone to come over, such as on work placement, become champion and head home shortly after never to return.

Very true - hadn't thought of that angle

Duanington · 02-11-2017 11:03am

RayCun wrote: »

That's still not really ambiguous
You can qualify by being eligible for an Irish passport.
If you're not eligible for an Irish passport, you can qualify by living in Ireland for the 6 months before the race.

"For an athlete to be either a Title Holder/Medallist ( to be defined as referring to top 3 finishers or top 3 winning team members , in track
and field - outdoor and/or indoor - cross country or road ) and/or the holder of a Championship Record (individual or team), the athlete must be a holder of, or be eligible to hold, an Irish passport and/or must reside on the island of Ireland ( for a minimum of 6 consecutive months immediately prior to the relevant Championships) and must be a member of an affiliated club on the island of Ireland."

It's a short checklist

Not ambiguous maybe but it is certainly inconsistent, if I'm hoping to compete under the 6 months residency rule, I can't travel somewhere abroad to train at altitude for a couple of weeks ? While anyone else competing can? ( ironically I don't think GOH travels much for training of course)

"reside" on the island of Ireland ....that word alone opens up questions.

Chivito550 · 02-11-2017 11:11am

A few years ago, an Australian friend of mine, who is a decathlete, decided to go backpacking around Europe. He decided to coordinate his trip around the Irish Combined Events Championships in Tullamore, and I decided to enter with him.

He inquired off AAI could he compete as a guest, so to not deny any local athletes a chance of a medal. They said "no guests allowed".

So what did he do? Faced with not being allowed to compete, he felt the only option was to join a club. He emailed 50 clubs on short notice, 2 got back, and he went with the first one. Within a day or so he was signed up and good to go.

He finished 4th in the end (had a disaster of a weekend) so didn't deny anybody any medals, but so much for eligibility and residency rules eh! A week after the event he was off to France, and then onwards from there.

Would never blame my friend for any of this, as he tried to compete as a guest and they simply wouldn't facilitate that (despite the very low entries).

Suppose the difference between this and the marathon is that the association don't give two tosses about combined events.

GO'H National Champion

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