GO'H National Champion

ted1

Duanington wrote: »

Thanks, I wasn't sure - so in a sport where altitude\warm weather training is the norm...while training for DCM, you can only take part in that if you've got the right colour passport.

It’s a National title. There’s a clue in the name.

Trying to imply racism is childish and pathetic, there’s plenty of people of different races who are Irish Nationals

RacoonQueen

Duanington wrote: »

I meant leave the country for altitude training\warm weather training....which I assume is what broke Freddy's 6 months up ( could be wrong there of course)

I questioned whether it had something to do with the type of visa he has. If he is on a 90 day visa he would have to leave and come back in to get visa renewed, I think? Not sure if he studys/works here or what so have no idea what visa he has but could be the case here that he had to leave the country.

Chivito550

Duanington wrote: »

Thanks, I wasn't sure - so in a sport where altitude\warm weather training is the norm...while training for DCM, you can only take part in that if you've got the right colour passport.

What a strange mess this really is - while I thought GOH's comments after the race took away from his own (incredible) performance, this whole fiasco is damaging and embarrassing

His comments have taken the gloss off his run for me. His comment on Facebook implying that Freddy is dishonest is irrepairable in my opinion. Sad to see athletes take pot shots like that.

ThisRegard

You can understand while not justifying what he said at the time.

The problem I think we all agree is Athletics Ireland for even letting it get that far.

Duanington

ted1 wrote: »

It’s a National title. There’s a clue in the name.

Trying to imply racism is childish and pathetic, there’s plenty of people of different races who are Irish Nationals

Where exactly did I imply racism? ( although the opening line of your response seems to a little bit of that in itself )


I'm saying that this strikes me as yet another rule that leaves the whole thing wide open to interpretation and loopholes. As with any set of rules, consistency is key and this particular organisation seem to be consistently inconsistent!

Murph_D

The Bin Man wrote: »

If that's the case, then GOH should be national champion (according to the rules).

Yes. And he is.

We are disappearing down rabbit holes here in the absence of any actual copy of the residency rule as adopted in 2016.

In any case, resident status does not normally imply continuous presence. So what does 'unbroken residence' mean? I'd love to see the actual rule book. I'd imagine this whole area is open to dispute, and I foresee plenty of disputes and arbitration ahead as definitions of 'resident' are bandied about, never mind definitions of 'irish' or 'national' champion.

It's still not clear whether Freddy can score for club, for instance. Only that he apparently can't hold the national title. As a team scorer, he could possibly contribute as the club is the title holder, not the athletes in the team. I think. I suppose we will know when next version of results is posted.

TFBubendorfer

Chivito550 wrote: »

The way I look at it, being Irish champion is not the same as representing Ireland in international competition. If you reside in Ireland and compete for an Irish club, then you are part of the Irish athletics community and deserve a chance to compete in the national championships.

I'd agree with that (then again, I would) but there are plenty of people who don't, to the point where a non-native athlete can get personal abuse for running in an Irish championship.

ThisRegard

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I'd agree with that (then again, I would) but there are plenty of people who don't, to the point where a non-native athlete can get personal abuse for running in an Irish championship.

You're going to the extreme there. I don't agree with the 6 month rule, but it's nothing to do with race or nationality.

People who abuse a "non-native" athlete will abuse anyone for not being Irish, the fact they may be running in the Irish Championship is just an excuse to do so.

Krusty_Clown

Predictably, all results from Sunday (admittedly provisional) have disappeared from the AAI website, while they figure out how the hell they are going to work out who came where in the national and team results.

<grabs popcorn - waits for next sh1tstorm>.

RayCun

I don't think the rule is consistent or difficult to apply - "6 months unbroken residence before the competition" is not ambiguous.

I don't think it's a great rule, too short a period while also too strict, but it is clear. Something like the ordinarily resident definition used for tax, would be better. Longer period of residence required, but gaps allowed.

RayCun

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Predictably, all results from Sunday (admittedly provisional) have disappeared from the AAI website, while they figure out how the hell they are going to work out who came where in the national and team results.

<grabs popcorn - waits for next sh1tstorm>.

Drive over and collect your medal quick before they're locked away in a vault pending a court case :pac:

TFBubendorfer

ThisRegard wrote: »

You're going to the extreme there. I don't agree with the 6 month rule, but it's nothing to do with race or nationality.

People who abuse a "non-native" athlete will abuse anyone for not being Irish, the fact they may be running in the Irish Championship is just an excuse to do so.

I'm not going to the extreme, I am speaking from experience.

Murph_D

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think the rule is consistent or difficult to apply - "6 months unbroken residence before the competition" is not ambiguous.

I don't think it's a great rule, too short a period while also too strict, but it is clear. Something like the ordinarily resident definition used for tax, would be better. Longer period of residence required, but gaps allowed.

I think it is ambiguous, as 'residence' and 'presence' are not the same thing, i.e. you can leave a country temporarily without losing your resident status - which I suppose is why the original 'ordinarily resident' wording was adopted (but since changed).

Agree that rules akin to tax residence would be far more appropriate - present in Ireland for 183 days during the year.

ThisRegard

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I'm not going to the extreme, I am speaking from experience.

Someone who abuses an athlete for not being Irish is the extreme. Because you've experienced it doesn't normalise it.

Duanington

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think the rule is consistent or difficult to apply - "6 months unbroken residence before the competition" is not ambiguous.

I don't think it's a great rule, too short a period while also too strict, but it is clear. Something like the ordinarily resident definition used for tax, would be better. Longer period of residence required, but gaps allowed.

But the rule is surely bigger than one line ? "6 months unbroken residence before the competition" looks pretty straightforward on the face of it....but then we know 2 of the top 3 finishers didn't meet that criteria ( by travelling abroad for training...which is the norm in this sport, in this country).....which is ok because they're Irish citizens. That's inconsistent straight away, it applies to one set of athletes and not another

RayCun

Duanington wrote: »

But the rule is surely bigger than one line ? "6 months unbroken residence before the competition" looks pretty straightforward on the face of it....but then we know 2 of the top 3 finishers didn't meet that criteria ( by travelling abroad for training...which is the norm in this sport, in this country).....which is ok because they're Irish citizens. That's inconsistent straight away, it applies to one set of athletes and not another

That's still not really ambiguous
You can qualify by being eligible for an Irish passport.
If you're not eligible for an Irish passport, you can qualify by living in Ireland for the 6 months before the race.

"For an athlete to be either a Title Holder/Medallist ( to be defined as referring to top 3 finishers or top 3 winning team members , in track
and field - outdoor and/or indoor - cross country or road ) and/or the holder of a Championship Record (individual or team), the athlete must be a holder of, or be eligible to hold, an Irish passport and/or must reside on the island of Ireland ( for a minimum of 6 consecutive months immediately prior to the relevant Championships) and must be a member of an affiliated club on the island of Ireland."

It's a short checklist

ThisRegard

Duanington wrote: »

That's inconsistent straight away, it applies to one set of athletes and not another

It also leaves open the possibility for anyone to come over, such as on work placement, become champion and head home shortly after never to return.

Duanington

ThisRegard wrote: »

It also leaves open the possibility for anyone to come over, such as on work placement, become champion and head home shortly after never to return.

Very true - hadn't thought of that angle

Duanington

RayCun wrote: »

That's still not really ambiguous
You can qualify by being eligible for an Irish passport.
If you're not eligible for an Irish passport, you can qualify by living in Ireland for the 6 months before the race.

"For an athlete to be either a Title Holder/Medallist ( to be defined as referring to top 3 finishers or top 3 winning team members , in track
and field - outdoor and/or indoor - cross country or road ) and/or the holder of a Championship Record (individual or team), the athlete must be a holder of, or be eligible to hold, an Irish passport and/or must reside on the island of Ireland ( for a minimum of 6 consecutive months immediately prior to the relevant Championships) and must be a member of an affiliated club on the island of Ireland."

It's a short checklist

Not ambiguous maybe but it is certainly inconsistent, if I'm hoping to compete under the 6 months residency rule, I can't travel somewhere abroad to train at altitude for a couple of weeks ? While anyone else competing can? ( ironically I don't think GOH travels much for training of course)


"reside" on the island of Ireland ....that word alone opens up questions.

Chivito550

A few years ago, an Australian friend of mine, who is a decathlete, decided to go backpacking around Europe. He decided to coordinate his trip around the Irish Combined Events Championships in Tullamore, and I decided to enter with him.

He inquired off AAI could he compete as a guest, so to not deny any local athletes a chance of a medal. They said "no guests allowed".

So what did he do? Faced with not being allowed to compete, he felt the only option was to join a club. He emailed 50 clubs on short notice, 2 got back, and he went with the first one. Within a day or so he was signed up and good to go.

He finished 4th in the end (had a disaster of a weekend) so didn't deny anybody any medals, but so much for eligibility and residency rules eh! A week after the event he was off to France, and then onwards from there.

Would never blame my friend for any of this, as he tried to compete as a guest and they simply wouldn't facilitate that (despite the very low entries).

Suppose the difference between this and the marathon is that the association don't give two tosses about combined events.

Murph_D

RayCun wrote: »

"For an athlete to be either a Title Holder/Medallist ( to be defined as referring to top 3 finishers or top 3 winning team members , in track
and field - outdoor and/or indoor - cross country or road ) and/or the holder of a Championship Record (individual or team), the athlete must be a holder of, or be eligible to hold, an Irish passport and/or must reside on the island of Ireland ( for a minimum of 6 consecutive months immediately prior to the relevant Championships) and must be a member of an affiliated club on the island of Ireland."

It's a short checklist

Is that the actual wording in the changed rules, Ray? Can you post or link to the actual document?

At least it clears up the team scorer question.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Funny thing with all this is that if Freddy came second he’d keep his silver medal as these “rules” only apply to national title holder. By winning he ends up with nothing, and allows the 4th place runner (Scullion) to take bronze (who would have ended up with nothing had Freddy been 2nd.

What a mess.

GOH should be DQed too for breaking the rules. If he can wear what he likes, then we all can too.

That is some messed up rule, one for first and a different one for second!!

RayCun

Duanington wrote: »

Not ambiguous maybe but it is certainly inconsistent, if I'm hoping to compete under the 6 months residency rule, I can't travel somewhere abroad to train at altitude for a couple of weeks ? While anyone else competing can?

I don't think that is really inconsistent.
If you want to be eligible under the 6 month residency rule, then you have to meet the criterion of being continuously resident for 6 months. That's what being eligible under that rule means!
If you are meeting the eligibility requirements some other way, then you have to meet the eligibility requirements in a different way.

It's like saying there the process of getting a place for London marathon is inconsistent, because you can get a championship entry OR a GFA OR a lottery place OR a charity place, and they don't all have the same requirements.

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Funny thing with all this is that if Freddy came second he’d keep his silver medal as these “rules” only apply to national title holder. By winning he ends up with nothing, and allows the 4th place runner (Scullion) to take bronze (who would have ended up with nothing had Freddy been 2nd.

no, they apply to all medallists

and 2012 is the only time in recent years where the first three people across the line were the national medallists, so it is not an unusual situation for the national champion to not be the race winner

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think that is really inconsistent.
If you want to be eligible under the 6 month residency rule, then you have to meet the criterion of being continuously resident for 6 months. That's what being eligible under that rule means!
If you are meeting the eligibility requirements some other way, then you have to meet the eligibility requirements in a different way.

It's like saying there the process of getting a place for London marathon is inconsistent, because you can get a championship entry OR a GFA OR a lottery place OR a charity place, and they don't all have the same requirements.

What about an Australian who is on a sponsored work visa to live in Ireland for example? Say he/she has lived here for a year and a half or so, heavily involved in Irish athletics (like I was with Australian athletics when I lived over there). Should this person be ineligible for a championship because he/she went home for Christmas or a sibling's wedding? Or because he/she has a life and fancied a weekend in London to watch Roger Federer on Centre Court?

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

What about an Australian who is on a sponsored work visa to live in Ireland for example? Say he/she has lived here for a year and a half or so, heavily involved in Irish athletics (like I was with Australian athletics when I lived over there). Should this person be ineligible for a championship because he/she went home for Christmas or a sibling's wedding? Or because he/she has a life and fancied a weekend in London to watch Roger Federer on Centre Court?

Yes.

Because they were not continuously resident in Ireland for the 6 months prior to the competition.

If you don't like the rule, put a motion forward to Congress to change it.


(which is the thing that always annoys me about these discussions. These rules didn't fall out of the sky, they were voted on by the club members who bothered their arses to go to meetings. Think things should be done differently? Well, if you're an Athletics Ireland member, the way is open for you to change things!)

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

Yes.

Because they were not continuously resident in Ireland for the 6 months prior to the competition.

If you don't like the rule, put a motion forward to Congress to change it.


(which is the thing that always annoys me about these discussions. These rules didn't fall out of the sky, they were voted on by the club members who bothered their arses to go to meetings. Think things should be done differently? Well, if you're an Athletics Ireland member, the way is open for you to change things!)

It's utterly laughable stuff.

If they want to make it simple, they should state that anybody on a work or student visa lasting 6 months or more are eligible. It's incredibly backwards to not allow somebody to leave the country for a few days. What if there was a family bereavement in an athlete's home country?

Also how would this stand up under EU law. Can a French person living here 7 years not go home for a weekend before a championship?

Regarding the AGM, which would be a perfect opportunity to discuss these motions, not everyone can go to that. I looked into going last time and wasn't allowed to.

Murph_D

I think Duanington's point is that a rule that denies some Irish-based elite athletes the ability to travel abroad for training (because to do so would render them ineligible to compete) is inherently unfair.

You could argue that the rule is deliberately unfair, of course, to prevent opportunism. If Irish-based African athletes can only get 90-day visas and have to leave to renew then, then it certainly discriminates against them.

RayCun

Murph_D wrote: »

Is that the actual wording in the changed rules, Ray? Can you post or link to the actual document?

At least it clears up the team scorer question.

doctorchick posted that in the other thread, it was taken from the 2016 Congress motions afaik

Chivito550

Chivito550 wrote: »

It's utterly laughable stuff.

If they want to make it simple, they should state that anybody on a work or student visa lasting 6 months or more are eligible. It's incredibly backwards to not allow somebody to leave the country for a few days. What if there was a family bereavement in an athlete's home country?

Also how would this stand up under EU law. Can a French person living here 7 years not go home for a weekend before a championship?

Regarding the AGM, which would be a perfect opportunity to discuss these motions, not everyone can go to that. I looked into going last time and wasn't allowed to.

Following on from the above, how many times did Sergiu leave the country before he gained Irish citizenship? He certainly was in Moscow for the World Championships in August 2013 representing Moldova. I cant remember if he ran the Dublin Marathon in 2013, but under these crazy rules, he'd be ineligible for that as he didn't have 6 months unbroken time spent in Ireland.

Fat chance that would be enforced though. They'll only enforce a rule when it suits them.