The Sub 3 Support Thread

overpronator · 08-10-2017 2:24pm

Have cracked it twice, both times in London and its the perfect course for it. Support has to be experienced to be believed. Its mindblowing in places. I think with similar conditions a runner genuinely in sub 3 shape would do it in Dublin too but the weather variable has to be taken into account. Dublin has far superior support compared to Berlin too in my experience.

squinn2912 · 08-10-2017 3:46pm

Would you really think it easier to do the sub3 in London? I've never run it. Winter training and crowded route would be against you.

Itziger · 08-10-2017 3:52pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Would you really think it easier to do the sub3 in London? I've never run it. Winter training and crowded route would be against you.

Different strokes and all that. Some people talk about the support like it's worth minutes. Me, I like smallish marathons for the most part. One huge difference though is if you find yourself on your tod. Then you might start missing a London or New York!! But for the most part big crowds of runners tend to put me off my stride, literally and figuratively. And 'support' means little to me. Unless it's family support, that helped me psychologically in Cork.

zulutango · 09-10-2017 11:16am

Those of you who are in or about the three hour mark for your marathon, what are your half marathon times? I ask because it's starting to dawn on me that maybe 3 hours is within my grasp. Not straight away or anything, but I pulled a 1:25 HM out of the bag at the weekend. Preparation was not great and I feel I could do a 1:22 or 1:23 if I tweaked a few things in training. Just wondering if that would be the right kind of ballpark to have a good bash at a 3 hour marathon. Thinking of Seville in February.

squinn2912 · 09-10-2017 11:56am

I rarely run 1/2 maras in the build up to marathons but my PB is 1.24 and I did one last year before Dublin in 1.25 then 2.58 in Dublin. Go after it. Aim for a negative split, no heroics in first half

noelearly · 09-10-2017 4:55pm

zulutango wrote: »

Those of you who are in or about the three hour mark for your marathon, what are your half marathon times? I ask because it's starting to dawn on me that maybe 3 hours is within my grasp. Not straight away or anything, but I pulled a 1:25 HM out of the bag at the weekend. Preparation was not great and I feel I could do a 1:22 or 1:23 if I tweaked a few things in training. Just wondering if that would be the right kind of ballpark to have a good bash at a 3 hour marathon. Thinking of Seville in February.

1 23. 37 in clonmel this August before Berlin. Had the company of an auld fella which helped. I was probably at my limit the auld fella was like Justin Gatlin at the end of it.

Itziger · 09-10-2017 5:13pm

noelearly wrote: »

1 23. 37 in clonmel this August before Berlin. Had the company of an auld fella which helped. I was probably at my limit the auld fella was like Justin Gatlin at the end of it.

Reported!!!!!!!!

You need to read the charter on dr*g speculation.

Clonmel was strange though. There's a photo of me chatting to that "lovely guy" who pipped me to 2nd auld fella 50 euro prize afterwards and you'd think we were just after a 12k Easy jog. Chatting away with big smiles on us. It was only a Half, but still, given my less than ideal prep for it I should have been on me hands and knees

noelearly · 09-10-2017 5:19pm

Itziger wrote: »

Reported!!!!!!!!

You need to read the charter on dr*g speculation.

Clonmel was strange though. There's a photo of me chatting to that "lovely guy" who pipped me to 2nd auld fella 50 euro prize afterwards and you'd think we were just after a 12k Easy jog. Chatting away with big smiles on us. It was only a Half, but still, given my less than ideal prep for it I should have been on me hands and knees

You still haven't got over the €50 prize.

Love the Clonmel race it goes very much under the radar, but ideal because it has a bit of everything. To answer OP 1.25 is well within target range for a stab at 3. Go for it

Bittertown · 19-10-2017 2:00pm

Hi everyone,

Sorry in advance for the very long post.
Basically I'm running my first marathon race in Dublin in 10 days, I have the unrealistic goal of running 2:59. I don't mind failing, I just really want to try. I have some questions since this thread seems to have a lot of knowledgable runners, but first a bit of context:

I started running more seriously early May, training and running my first races. I was fit and in shape before that, I would run 5k here and there, do hill sprints sessions, some bodyweight workouts etc. Never ran more than 10K before May.

For the record I ran a marathon by myself at the end of May (so with very low training) in Phoenix Park, and while my time was obviously not very good (3:47) the distance is not really scaring me, but obviously the pace for 2:59 is.

I've been running about 50 miles on average over the last 4 months. Peaked the last 4 weeks with 65-70 miles per week, with long runs between 18 and 22 miles.
I ran 4 races between June and August, three 5K (19:00, 19:03, 18:53) and one 10K (39:29 in August)
I have done several long-ish MP runs usually mid-week, most notably two 16 miles runs with the last 13 miles at MP (last 13.1 miles in 1:29:15 and then 1:28:45). Those two runs were in the middle of my 70 miles weeks.

- Based on all that, do you think I have a small shot at a sub 3h Marathon in 10 days? I know this is very unlikely but I would like your opinion on it.
- Any race strategy based around the 3h pace group? It's my first Dublin marathon so I'm not sure if these guys are reliable? I really don't want to reach the half faster than 1:29. I looked at last year's videos and it seems like this 3h pace group is extremely crowded for the first part of the race, but I don't think I'd be able to pace myself really well. I imagine just following this group would be easier for me?

Any comments/opinions on this would be very appreciated!
Thanks!

sideswipe · 19-10-2017 2:08pm

Not going to give sub 3 advice as I'm unqualified:o

However I am qualified in running a marathon for the first time. With that in mind I'd be wary of too lofty a time goal first time out. You only get one shot at running your first marathon and having an enjoyable experience- you can have many sub 3 shots!

Itziger · 19-10-2017 2:53pm

Bittertown wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Sorry in advance for the very long post.
Basically I'm running my first marathon race in Dublin in 10 days, I have the unrealistic goal of running 2:59. I don't mind failing, I just really want to try. I have some questions since this thread seems to have a lot of knowledgable runners, but first a bit of context:

I started running more seriously early May, training and running my first races. I was fit and in shape before that, I would run 5k here and there, do hill sprints sessions, some bodyweight workouts etc. Never ran more than 10K before May.

For the record I ran a marathon by myself at the end of May (so with very low training) in Phoenix Park, and while my time was obviously not very good (3:47) the distance is not really scaring me, but obviously the pace for 2:59 is.

I've been running about 50 miles on average over the last 4 months. Peaked the last 4 weeks with 65-70 miles per week, with long runs between 18 and 22 miles.
I ran 4 races between June and August, three 5K (19:00, 19:03, 18:53) and one 10K (39:29 in August)
I have done several long-ish MP runs usually mid-week, most notably two 16 miles runs with the last 13 miles at MP (last 13.1 miles in 1:29:15 and then 1:28:45). Those two runs were in the middle of my 70 miles weeks.

- Based on all that, do you think I have a small shot at a sub 3h Marathon in 10 days? I know this is very unlikely but I would like your opinion on it.
- Any race strategy based around the 3h pace group? It's my first Dublin marathon so I'm not sure if these guys are reliable? I really don't want to reach the half faster than 1:29. I looked at last year's videos and it seems like this 3h pace group is extremely crowded for the first part of the race, but I don't think I'd be able to pace myself really well. I imagine just following this group would be easier for me?

Any comments/opinions on this would be very appreciated!
Thanks!

If I look at the big picture I'm thinking no way. If I look at the highlighted 13 mile stuff I'm thinking yes way. I hope for your sake your GPS is fairly accurate . From what I've heard the Dub pacers are good (hungover, but good) and they will not be going through halfway faster than 1:29. I'm guessing 1:29:30 to 50. Good luck whatever you decide.

DC. · 19-10-2017 2:55pm

You will probably know fairly early on if you have a shot at sub3. If you feel good at mile 15/16 then try & push on but I would try and run a sensible race, no heroics in the first half etc.

As for the pacing group, I found it best to just sit in front of the pacers. Everyone will jump in behind them and it can be hard to get into a rhythm.

ger664 · 19-10-2017 6:59pm

@bittertown

You are kinda like one of those improving 3 year old horses. Your lack of running and training with your recent races times suggest you should not get near it but those MP runs suggest you would.

This will either go two ways. You break 3 or you sufferfest home in 3:30+. If you are happy to risk the later happening then go with the 3 hour pacers. If not go out 3:20 pacers and pick it up if you can for the last 6 miles.

fletch · 19-10-2017 7:53pm

ger664 wrote: »

@bittertown

You are kinda like one of those improving 3 year old horses. Your lack of running and training with your recent races times suggest you should not get near it but those MP runs suggest you would.

This will either go two ways. You break 3 or you sufferfest home in 3:30+. If you are happy to risk the later happening then go with the 3 hour pacers. If not go out 3:20 pacers and pick it up if you can for the last 6 miles.

He'll be hitting the 20 mile mark about 2:32:30 if he sits with the 3:20 pacers....no way he's going to pull a 28 min 10k out of the bag at the end though to come in under 3 or am I missing something?

robinph · 19-10-2017 8:30pm

fletch wrote: »

ger664 wrote: »

@bittertown

You are kinda like one of those improving 3 year old horses. Your lack of running and training with your recent races times suggest you should not get near it but those MP runs suggest you would.

This will either go two ways. You break 3 or you sufferfest home in 3:30+. If you are happy to risk the later happening then go with the 3 hour pacers. If not go out 3:20 pacers and pick it up if you can for the last 6 miles.

He'll be hitting the 20 mile mark about 2:32:30 if he sits with the 3:20 pacers....no way he's going to pull a 28 min 10k out of the bag at the end though to come in under 3 or am I missing something?

Going with the 3:20 pacers would result in a more fun day and ability to hold a pint at the end of it. Going with the 3hr pace will be a world of pain and probably not result in anything much quicker than 3:20.

But saying that I've gone off at way above what I knew I would be able to finish in a couple of times and as expected blew up towards the end, but that was not on my first marathon and part of plans to just test myself knowing that I was not going to be put off marathons by having one planned disaster

ger664 · 19-10-2017 10:18pm

fletch wrote: »

He'll be hitting the 20 mile mark about 2:32:30 if he sits with the 3:20 pacers....no way he's going to pull a 28 min 10k out of the bag at the end though to come in under 3 or am I missing something?

This option is for the safer ~3:15 which I think is where he is at endurance wish given the training to date. Doing this will give a good marathon experience and confidence to sub 3 next year.

However 39 minute 10K should be ~1:28 for a half. OP ran that in training in a 70 mile week shortly after so is clearly improving so maybe he could run a sub 3 on the day but it does carry a risk of a horrible experience in the last few miles.

Enduro · 19-10-2017 11:34pm

My first running race was DCM, and I found myself with a similar choice, but with no metrics to go on, just a really strong last long run. In the end I went for it, with a very definite plan of running an even paced marathon. In the end I was able to accelerate the last mile or two to come in around 2:57. So it can work, but its definitely a big gamble. So in the end it comes down to whether you think the risk of a blow-out is worth the reward of a sub 3. Only you can decide that for yourself.

One downside of running sub 3 on your first go is that you knock out the big classic target, which can leave follow-up marathons a bit underwhelming, relatively speaking.I never got the same kick out of hitting any other marathon time targets (but got my rewards in the marathon by targeting more interesting and difficult courses instead).

OOnegative · 19-10-2017 11:58pm

Enduro wrote: »

My first running race was DCM, and I found myself with a similar choice, but with no metrics to go on, just a really strong last long run. In the end I went for it, with a very definite plan of running an even paced marathon. In the end I was able to accelerate the last mile or two to come in around 2:57. So it can work, but its definitely a big gamble. So in the end it comes down to whether you think the risk of a blow-out is worth the reward of a sub 3. Only you can decide that for yourself.

One downside of running sub 3 on your first go is that you knock out the big classic target, which can leave follow-up marathons a bit underwhelming, relatively speaking.I never got the same kick out of hitting any other marathon time targets (but got my rewards in the marathon by targeting more interesting and difficult courses instead).

So your 1st EVER race you ran a 2.57 marathon?

squinn2912 · 20-10-2017 12:11am

Surprised by the negativity in those reactions. I think you absolutely can and should go for the sub3. I got 3 sub3s on the DCM course and one the wheels came off and I came in on 3:17. On my successful days I let the pacers go I think they're terrible. First 15 miles are hilly and measure long so I think aim to come in at halfway on 1:30:30. Keep calm and hold pace. On downward miles allow the hill to help you out and run them at 6:40-6:45. If you get to 20 miles at 2:20 or slightly under then you have every chance to grind it out. If you're at 20 in 2:15 then the risk is you blow up. I'd be conservative until 20 and then sensible. Good luck, you'll smash it!

OOnegative · 20-10-2017 12:23am

squinn2912 wrote: »

On my successful days I let the pacers go I think they're terrible.

Of course Mr squinn that's your opinion & your 100% entitled to it, DCM can be ****e weather wise, course wise, supporter wise. One thing about it, the Pacers will run you to the required time you want year in year out or they get the sack by him who must be obeyed. The pacers in DCM are among the best in the world at the job they do, and will always be that way.

squinn2912 · 20-10-2017 12:34am

Just to clarify the pacers aren't to blame for me not achieving my goal time on one occasion. That was 2 years ago and the weather wasn't kind. They are encouraging and pleasant. But they go out harder than necessary. The pace is comfortable for them but if your goal pace is 6:49/6:50 then hitting 6:35-6:40 on hard miles will almost certainly prove your undoing. At 22 miles every time they slacked back but by then many runners were out of the race, guys who perhaps could have made it with different tactics. I think there's room for improvement.
Someone suggested they turn up hungover. I've never seen that and wouldn't be impressed.

davedanon · 20-10-2017 1:31am

squinn2912 wrote: »

Someone suggested they turn up hungover. I've never seen that and wouldn't be impressed.

They turn up hungover as it is.

But seriously, if you're not happy with the service the unpaid pacers do then you should really volunteer and show them all how it's done.

squinn2912 · 20-10-2017 8:37am

Well that's not great form if they do.

If they're volunteering to provide a service then that's wonderful but that doesn't mean they are above criticism. I've unofficially paced people, paying the entry fee, and when I did that I planned to run at an even pace throughout. My advice from the 4 DCMs I have done is to let them go because they go out harder than you need to. Every running world record broken was achieved by running evenly. If the elite follow that then there's a lesson there.

davedanon · 20-10-2017 8:52am

squinn2912 wrote: »

Well that's not great form if they do.

If they're volunteering to provide a service then that's wonderful but that doesn't mean they are above criticism. I've unofficially paced people, paying the entry fee, and when I did that I planned to run at an even pace throughout. My advice from the 4 DCMs I have done is to let them go because they go out harder than you need to. Every running world record broken was achieved by running evenly. If the elite follow that then there's a lesson there.

I was joking. But it's commonly agreed that the Dublin pacers do a consistently excellent job. I think you'll find that your views aren't shared by the majority on here.

squinn2912 · 20-10-2017 9:04am

Hard to pick up a joking tone online…
That's fine. No one has to agree with me at all. I'm going on my own evidence. I think if your borderline sub3 then running with them early on is risky business and I've found that to my cost. Their tactics are at odds with advice given on lots of running sites which all seem to advise even splits and a controlled start. They go out very hard.

dna_leri · 20-10-2017 9:14am

DCM 3hr pacers did a great job last year and many on this forum seem to agree that they provide great service.
I stayed off the back of the 3hr group and went through half way in 1:30. Only disadvantage I found was on the few downhills that I was held back a bit by the group ahead but that may have been a blessing in the end.
@Bittertown - Your mileage is a bit low, your 10K time is slow but your 13 mile MPs are good. While the odds are against a sub3 in your first attempt, only you really know (if anyone does) and if you are prepared for failure, then go for it. If you stay with the 3hr pacers in sight you will be glad of the help and support in the 2nd half. I predict 3:05.

ooter · 20-10-2017 9:38am

Bittertown wrote: »

I've been running about 50 miles on average over the last 4 months. Peaked the last 4 weeks with 65-70 miles per week, with long runs between 18 and 22 miles.
I ran 4 races between June and August, three 5K (19:00, 19:03, 18:53) and one 10K (39:29 in August)
I have done several long-ish MP runs usually mid-week, most notably two 16 miles runs with the last 13 miles at MP (last 13.1 miles in 1:29:15 and then 1:28:45). Those two runs were in the middle of my 70 miles weeks.

It would've been interesting to see what time you would've raced 13.1 in your training cycle.
My only attempt at sub 3 (my 2nd Marathon) I peaked at 55 miles but my 5, 10 and 13.1 times would've been very similar to yours. I went through halfway in 1:32 but the wheels fell off big time in the 2nd half, dread to think what would've happened if I'd went with the sub 3 pacers.
The fact that you've been able to peak at 70 miles training for your first marathon would suggest you're in with a good shot, I'm training for my 7th Marathon now and still don't think I'd be able for 70 miles a week but I certainly feel you need to be doing at least that much to have a realist stab at sub 3.
Best of luck bittertown, let us know how you get on.

dublin runner · 20-10-2017 9:40am

squinn2912 wrote: »

Someone suggested they turn up hungover. I've never seen that and wouldn't be impressed.

Where do I even start with this?

I very happily give up my time to give something back to the race, a race I love and race in which I ran with the pacers for 24 miles in 2014. There they helped me achieve my target and in attempt to repay that in some way, I will attempt do similar for runners whilst pacing next week.

I draw the line when reading the above. Complete rubbish.

If you cannot post something either positive or constructive maybe consider not posting at all.

robinph · 20-10-2017 9:40am

The half times quoted are not quick enough for sub 3, although they were not genuine raced halves or measured and were on the end of longer training runs does give a few more positive signs that they would be capable of significantly quicker. The lack of racing experience is going to be a big issue though and the most recent 10km race wasn't quick enough for sub3. They are definitely capable of sub 3 if the training runs are to be believed....but the lack of miles in the legs over years and running for 3hrs in the middle of a big group of people will go massively against being successful on the first attempt.

Can be done if they are really lucky, but probably more likely to blow up. Going at a more conservative pace for attempt one and then much more likely top be able to smash the sub 3 by multiple minutes at the next attempt.

BeepBeep67 · 20-10-2017 9:42am

I find in these situations it's best to remove emotions from the equation and support with data, here are the stats from 1 of the sub 3 pacers last year.

Nothing to see here.

Remember also that the pacers are pacing to their chip time, you need to adjust based on where you started in relation to them.

The Sub 3 Support Thread

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