The Sub 3 Support Thread

squinn2912

Christ that's a serious speed to run your last two miles of a long run. I might do a mile or two at 6:40s an odd week if I'm going really well. If the target is way lower than sub3 I could see into that but that seems very fast. Out of interest what time did you do the 10k time trial? What is the rest of your week made up of?

kerrylad1

davedanon wrote: »

Which is how much off MP?

Usually 20 miles,2/3 at 8min pace followed bye 14/15/16/17 at MP and then 1 or 2 miles cool down to bring it to 20 miles.That 16/17 MP long run is always 21 days out from Marathon.I just run easy the other days of the week before this session.Lots of boring treadmill miles.Have two year old,so while he's asleep I jump on it with the baby monitor to keep me company.The wife works crazy shifts,no that's the only way to keep up the mileage.

squinn2912

kerrylad1 wrote: »

davedanon wrote: »

Which is how much off MP?

Usually 20 miles,2/3 at 8min pace followed bye 14/15/16/17 at MP and then 1 or 2 miles cool down to bring it to 20 miles.That 16/17 MP long run is always 21 days out from Marathon.I just run easy the other days of the week before this session.Lots of boring treadmill miles.Have two year old,so while he's asleep I jump on it with the baby monitor to keep me company.The wife works crazy shifts,no that's the only way to keep up the mileage.

Ahh I think I get it now. So you run easy all week and run hard for your long run. I do my fast runs on tuesdays and thursdays with tuesday being up to around 10 miles 20-30 seconds quicker than MP and Thursday intervals. I'm half considering getting more miles at an easy pace on Thursdays though and just run fast once per week.
I know a group of guys who run their long runs at race pace and run hard two days during the week, one day steady. I don't know if they do any recovery running at all. Always injured and breaking down, especially late on in marathons it seems. I don't think you can do it without decent rest built in.

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Christ that's a serious speed to run your last two miles of a long run. I might do a mile or two at 6:40s an odd week if I'm going really well. If the target is way lower than sub3 I could see into that but that seems very fast. Out of interest what time did you do the 10k time trial? What is the rest of your week made up of?

36:53.10 miles Mon,Tues 10,Wed 15,Thurs 10 Fri 7, sat or sun then is the long run.I do a super slow recovery run the day after long runs 3/4 miles9:45/10 min pace.This just works for me.A club runner I know,said I should be doing alot better in the Marathon with the mileage I do,but I'm happy just to get sub 3 to be honest.Ment to say,that's peak mileage weeks above,and most except the long and m.p stuff, is on the boring treadmill.

Itziger

squinn2912 wrote: »

Ahh I think I get it now. So you run easy all week and run hard for your long run. I do my fast runs on tuesdays and thursdays with tuesday being up to around 10 miles 20-30 seconds quicker than MP and Thursday intervals. I'm half considering getting more miles at an easy pace on Thursdays though and just run fast once per week.
I know a group of guys who run their long runs at race pace and run hard two days during the week, one day steady. I don't know if they do any recovery running at all. Always injured and breaking down, especially late on in marathons it seems. I don't think you can do it without decent rest built in.

Am I reading this correctly? "{THEY ARE} Always injured and breaking down, yeah? If so, I'm not bloody surprised. Mind me asking, what's their race pace? Do people not realise that we're not elites? The lads at the top are getting constant massage work done on those muscles, resting, eating properly, thinking about zilch other than their running, cos their pros. But for the rest of us....... that kind of training you describe above is suicidal. Not that a pro would do a week without recovery running. Don't the Kenyans sometimes do 5 min/km stuff? Seen it referred to as the Kenyan shuffle.

squinn2912

Unfortunately you are. Yes I know and more times they ask me to join the crew but it's just against what I believe. Totally agree with you. I subscribe to easy, hard, easy/steady, hard, rest, long training
Have heard a bit about the Kenyan shuffle yep.
If I were training for 10k then harder training more often but the relentlessness of a marathon racing means you need rest, as important as training in the first place

Itziger

squinn2912 wrote: »

Unfortunately you are. Yes I know and more times they ask me to join the crew but it's just against what I believe. Totally agree with you. I subscribe to easy, hard, easy/steady, hard, rest, long training
Have heard a bit about the Kenyan shuffle yep.
If I were training for 10k then harder training more often but the relentlessness of a marathon racing means you need rest, as important as training in the first place

Age may play a part, I'm not sure. But as a 'mature' runner I couldn't dream of doing more than 2 Q or 'hard' sessions a week.

squinn2912

That would be possible but all of those guys are in their late 30s and up. What is Q? I can do 3 hard sessions if the long run isn't too long but I agree with you on that

El Caballo

squinn2912 wrote: »

What is Q?

Q is a daniels term. Stands for quality.

Anyone else here targeting the Sub-3 this Autumn? How's training going and what have you done so far?

noelearly

Itziger wrote: »

Am I reading this correctly? "{THEY ARE} Always injured and breaking down, yeah? If so, I'm not bloody surprised. Mind me asking, what's their race pace? Do people not realise that we're not elites? The lads at the top are getting constant massage work done on those muscles, resting, eating properly, thinking about zilch other than their running, cos their pros. But for the rest of us....... that kind of training you describe above is suicidal. Not that a pro would do a week without recovery running. Don't the Kenyans sometimes do 5 min/km stuff? Seen it referred to as the Kenyan shuffle.

Kenyans live by the rule of 80% slow 20% quality. For us mere mortals that ratio is the minimum we should be at. Since I've started doing that it's brought me on unreal. Gives the body plenty of time to recover.

squinn2912

I've heard that before years ago and it's slipped my mind. Good rule of thumb. During my heavy end of sub3 training I would be doing 15-18 of 50-55 miles quality which is almost 30%. So should I increase my miles or reduce my fast training?

noelearly

squinn2912 wrote: »

I've heard that before years ago and it's slipped my mind. Good rule of thumb. During my heavy end of sub3 training I would be doing 15-18 of 50-55 miles quality which is almost 30%. So should I increase my miles or reduce my fast training?

Whatever you can manage time wise. I struggled to get 55 a week average for Berlin, but I always struck to the 80/20. Doubles helped me id do 6 before work and 4 after. Some people might think that's pointless or junk miles but it worked for me.

squinn2912

noelearly wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

I've heard that before years ago and it's slipped my mind. Good rule of thumb. During my heavy end of sub3 training I would be doing 15-18 of 50-55 miles quality which is almost 30%. So should I increase my miles or reduce my fast training?

Whatever you can manage time wise. I struggled to get 55 a week average for Berlin, but I always struck to the 80/20. Doubles helped me id do 6 before work and 4 after. Some people might think that's pointless or junk miles but it worked for me.

I tried the doubles one year on the hard days. That was 6 tempo / 4 slow and 800m intervals / 4m slow. How did you do it?

Ended up with my PB 2:58. How'd you go in Berlin?

noelearly

squinn2912 wrote: »

I tried the doubles one year on the hard days. That was 6 tempo / 4 slow and 800m intervals / 4m slow. How did you do it?

Ended up with my PB 2:58. How'd you go in Berlin?

I'd do the morning slow about 8 to 8.30 pace and depending how I felt in the evening I'd mix it up usually a mile warm up and do 7.10 7.00 and 6.50. Sometimes I might do both slow. But id do a quality workout on another day or try and get a 5k or 5 mile race in with 3 mile warm up and cool down after to build the mileage.

2.56 for Berlin

squinn2912

noelearly wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

I tried the doubles one year on the hard days. That was 6 tempo / 4 slow and 800m intervals / 4m slow. How did you do it?

Ended up with my PB 2:58. How'd you go in Berlin?

I'd do the morning slow about 8 to 8.30 pace and depending how I felt in the evening I'd mix it up usually a mile warm up and do 7.10 7.00 and 6.50. Sometimes I might do both slow. But id do a quality workout on another day or try and get a 5k or 5 mile race in with 3 mile warm up and  cool down after to build the mileage.

2.56 for Berlin

That's super running well done. I'm starting to think that I'm running too hard with 10 mile tempos and 5x mile intervals, especially the intervals. I could increase the mileage and do more at marathon pace or slightly above it.

Itziger

noelearly wrote: »

I'd do the morning slow about 8 to 8.30 pace and depending how I felt in the evening I'd mix it up usually a mile warm up and do 7.10 7.00 and 6.50. Sometimes I might do both slow. But id do a quality workout on another day or try and get a 5k or 5 mile race in with 3 mile warm up and cool down after to build the mileage.

2.56 for Berlin

Each time I think about that time, jeez, that was a good performance off the Clonmel Half,eh! I shoulda gone to Berlin with you. It would have been you in front then I can assure you but I might have been able to hang on to your coat tails, more or less. (Obvs. if I'd been properly trained that is)

noelearly

Itziger wrote: »

Each time I think about that time, jeez, that was a good performance off the Clonmel Half,eh! I shoulda gone to Berlin with you. It would have been you in front then I can assure you but I might have been able to hang on to your coat tails, more or less. (Obvs. if I'd been properly trained that is)

If you can break 3 in Cork lad I can assure you there would be no need to hang onto my coat tails. At least we would have a good chat for 20 miles or so before the bad mood kicked in. Ha

Itziger

noelearly wrote: »

If you can break 3 in Cork lad I can assure you there would be no need to hang onto my coat tails. At least we would have a good chat for 20 miles or so before the bad mood kicked in. Ha

Who chats in the last 6 miles of a marathon??

Meself and Innuendo, who has hardly posted here since, didn't say boo to one another in Cork and we about 2 yards apart for most of those last 6.

squinn2912

Best marathon courses and times of year to break the sub3? I've done it in Newry twice and Dublin three times. Anyone feel that traveling to your marathon helps? I've never done one outside of Ireland.

Itziger

squinn2912 wrote: »

Best marathon courses and times of year to break the sub3? I've done it in Newry twice and Dublin three times. Anyone feel that traveling to your marathon helps? I've never done one outside of Ireland.

Depends on how your year goes. For me, work is a bit lighter in April and May so Cork timing is almost perfect. Weather is ok and days are getting nice and long. Suits me down to the ground. Then there's the late Autumn time, has to be late though 'cos I like my long Summer holidays and the good(ish) life.

I find training for early April is tough enough to be honest. London would be perfect in Mid or late May, no??

Depends on everyone though. I travel for most of my marathons, if it's just down the road to Metz or across the ocean to NYC. Next one up all going well is Valencia, 3rd weekend of November. Travel can upset some people. New bed, different food.......... temptation to do sight seeing the day before.

noelearly

Itziger wrote: »

Depends on how your year goes. For me, work is a bit lighter in April and May so Cork timing is almost perfect. Weather is ok and days are getting nice and long. Suits me down to the ground. Then there's the late Autumn time, has to be late though 'cos I like my long Summer holidays and the good(ish) life.

I find training for early April is tough enough to be honest. London would be perfect in Mid or late May, no??

Depends on everyone though. I travel for most of my marathons, if it's just down the road to Metz or across the ocean to NYC. Next one up all going well is Valencia, 3rd weekend of November. Travel can upset some people. New bed, different food.......... temptation to do sight seeing the day before.

Sight seeing can be a problem alright and good food.. Valencia is tempting me next year Itz, thinking seriously about it or Frankfurt. Cork and either of those later in year is what I'm thinking at the moment.

Itziger

noelearly wrote: »

Sight seeing can be a problem alright and good food.. Valencia is tempting me next year Itz, thinking seriously about it or Frankfurt. Cork and either of those later in year is what I'm thinking at the moment.

Valencia will be 2 weeks later next year, December 2nd. I know some will think, ooh too late but as I said above, it gives ya plenty of time to train in Sept/Oct/Nov. Admittedly November is less attractive for us Northern Euro types but still ok weather wise. And it's Dec 2nd I believe, so you'd only be doing hard stuff to mid Nov anyway. Frankfurt is same time as Dublin, as you probably know.

opus

Itziger wrote: »

Valencia will be 2 weeks later next year, December 2nd. I know some will think, ooh too late but as I said above, it gives ya plenty of time to train in Sept/Oct/Nov. Admittedly November is less attractive for us Northern Euro types but still ok weather wise. And it's Dec 2nd I believe, so you'd only be doing hard stuff to mid Nov anyway. Frankfurt is same time as Dublin, as you probably know.

Interesting, might be tempted

Krusty_Clown

squinn2912 wrote: »

Best marathon courses and times of year to break the sub3? I've done it in Newry twice and Dublin three times. Anyone feel that traveling to your marathon helps? I've never done one outside of Ireland.

I popped my cherry in Barcelona, but certainly Rotterdam, Berlin, London, and Frankfurt would be easier, given favourable weather. Dublin is a little tougher, given the occasional hills and potentially windy course, but it's second to none in terms of support, pacing and on-course nutrition/drinks.

noelearly

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I popped my cherry in Barcelona, but certainly Rotterdam, Berlin, London, and Frankfurt would be easier, given favourable weather. Dublin is a little tougher, given the occasional hills and potentially windy course, but it's second to none in terms of support, pacing and on-course nutrition/drinks.

Can't speak for the rest but Berlin could certainly learn a thing or two from Dublin as regards nutrition and drinks.

and still ricky villa

noelearly wrote: »

Can't speak for the rest but Berlin could certainly learn a thing or two from Dublin as regards nutrition and drinks.

Never has a cold non alcoholic beer tasted so good

Duanington

I've only gone sub 3 once - in Berlin, loved the course, temp got a little warm towards the end of the race but the long stretches of flat, smooth surfaces really lends itself to a quick run.
The pacers on the day were about as useful as a chocolate teapot

Came close enough in Dublin, didn't quite manage to hang on - BUT, I would definitely agree with others in that support is worth a lot on the day, there are of course drags to contend with but the support along some of the sections really do inject a little magic into the run - a word for the pacers too of course, great setup with lots of interaction\feedback etc

PaulieYifter

Since we're on the topic I'm going to throw in San Sebastian as a great marathon for a sub 3 towards end of November - quite a large proportion go sub 3 and the pace groups start at 2:30 - flat course, 2500 runners, weather usually around 10 degrees.

I do like November as an option for a marathon - lengthens the summer and shortens the winter.

This year I'm off to Philadelphia mid November - its on the same day as Valencia but easier to get to from Dublin (at least that's the story I've used at home)

squinn2912

Are there direct flights from Dublin to San Seb? I've heard it's a good course

PaulieYifter

squinn2912 wrote: »

Are there direct flights from Dublin to San Seb? I've heard it's a good course

No - it's a domestic airport in Spain - but it's well connected through Madrid or Barcelona. I had considered it again this year but the flights weren't as handy as Philly

The course has slightly changed as the half way and finish are not in the Anoeta stadium as it's being upgraded.