CRU (formerly CER) review of charging infrastructure

BoatMad · 10-10-2017 10:55am

tax incentives can be given to those who allow charging.

thats the only route the gov has. But its very complex to administer and there are far bigger things to fry " in the landlord market at the moment

unkel · 10-10-2017 11:18am

BoatMad wrote: »

isnt it only free if you shop

I stated it was free for customers. If you don't shop, you're not a customer duh

BoatMad · 10-10-2017 11:21am

unkel wrote: »

I stated it was free for customers. If you don't shop, you're not a customer duh

thats what I get for scan reading !.

but wasnt that charger forced in due to DL planning laws, I dont think its a general Aldi policy too install chargers

cros13 · 10-10-2017 11:49am

BoatMad wrote: »

I dont think its a general Aldi policy too install chargers

Nissan is talking to both Aldi and Lidl... might make a contribution...

And it wouldn't be without precedent:

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n97 mini · 10-10-2017 12:20pm

BoatMad wrote: »

The issue is that laws cant be enacted to forced existing apartments to provide EV facilities, the constitution largely forbids retrospective enforcement

I'd say that's not the issue. We've had EVs since 2011, and 6 years later only one local authority seems to know that. What's going on with the other 30 that new builds are still going ahead with no provision for EVs whatsoever.

BoatMad · 10-10-2017 2:35pm

n97 mini wrote: »

I'd say that's not the issue. We've had EVs since 2011, and 6 years later only one local authority seems to know that. What's going on with the other 30 that new builds are still going ahead with no provision for EVs whatsoever.

I know that national guidelines are being considered but I believe this needs legislation

10-10-2017 4:15pm

You're never going to convince people to change to EV if they have to wait 30 + mins for a charge, and especially so if they have to queue before they charge.

I keep using my Brother as a good example of this, someone who would have bought EV if he could only charge at his apartment and is not willing to use public infrastructure as his primary means of charging, I guarantee he's not alone in that thinking !

Take the 40 Kwh leaf which will unfortunately take 40 mins to 80% according to Nissan , while it's perfectly fine for me and many others who have home charging average Joe Diesel driver who has no home charging will laugh in your face.

BoatMad · 10-10-2017 11:36pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You're never going to convince people to change to EV if they have to wait 30 + mins for a charge, and especially so if they have to queue before they charge.

I keep using my Brother as a good example of this, someone who would have bought EV if he could only charge at his apartment and is not willing to use public infrastructure as his primary means of charging, I guarantee he's not alone in that thinking !

Take the 40 Kwh leaf which will unfortunately take 40 mins to 80% according to Nissan , while it's perfectly fine for me and many others who have home charging average Joe Diesel driver who has no home charging will laugh in your face.

Mad_lad

we are all frantically agreeing with each other. Personally , I'd like to see everthing sorted too. But I also realise that the green agenda and EVs are of limited political importance to a government that mightn't exist next year.

This is a long haul undertaking , let's not all start to squabble at the first fence.

11-10-2017 12:27am

This Government, previous Governments and future Governments have little will do do what's right or have any forward thinking, they're just there for their face in the papers to listen to the sound of their own voice and milk the tax payer until it comes time to collect their pensions.

Not go too off topic but the housing crisis is simply down to the ridiculous housing costs in Dublin still to this day, charging 300+ K for a mid terrace box house is downright disgusting and immoral, the master bedroom is so small a wardrobe and chest of drawers takes up 95% of the room, can hardly walk around the bed but you hit off something. Shameful country , it wouldn't be too bad if they cost 100K which is about the cost these houses should cost.

We need to forget about housing estates in our larger towns and cities, they're a complete waste of land and go high rise, I'm talking 20 stories and beyond, this will maximise the amount of apartments on any given amount of land which should also make space for decent parks instead of concrete jungles estates with 6 foot high concrete walls all around and concrete out the front and no space for lawns, trees or hedges.

Unsustainable developments need to stop along with one off housing.

Throwing more money at welfare instead of bring down the cost of living, more money into the HSE, a bottomless pit !

I could go on but the point is that there's so much wrong with this country and our Governments way of thinking that it will take years to solve, electric cars are nothing for the Government to get concerned about along with diesel emissions.

BoatMad · 11-10-2017 12:45am

Deleted User wrote: »

This Government, previous Governments and future Governments have little will do do what's right or have any forward thinking, they're just there for their face in the papers to listen to the sound of their own voice and milk the tax payer until it comes time to collect their pensions.

Not go too off topic but the housing crisis is simply down to the ridiculous housing costs in Dublin still to this day, charging 300+ K for a mid terrace box house is downright disgusting and immoral, the master bedroom is so small a wardrobe and chest of drawers takes up 95% of the room, can hardly walk around the bed but you hit off something. Shameful country , it wouldn't be too bad if they cost 100K which is about the cost these houses should cost.

We need to forget about housing estates in our larger towns and cities, they're a complete waste of land and go high rise, I'm talking 20 stories and beyond, this will maximise the amount of apartments on any given amount of land which should also make space for decent parks instead of concrete jungles estates with 6 foot high concrete walls all around and concrete out the front and no space for lawns, trees or hedges.

Unsustainable developments need to stop along with one off housing.

Throwing more money at welfare instead of bring down the cost of living, more money into the HSE, a bottomless pit !

I could go on but the point is that there's so much wrong with this country and our Governments way of thinking that it will take years to solve, electric cars are nothing for the Government to get concerned about along with diesel emissions.

in fairness Mad_lad, this is a political position rathe then an argued one. You seem no fan of FG.

This Government, previous Governments and future Governments have little will do do what's right or have any forward thinking,

its all politics, in any given point in time, people beleive they are doing the right thing.

they're just there for their face in the papers to listen to the sound of their own voice and milk the tax payer until it comes time to collect their pensions.

all that is is the cynic in you, the reality is we have to live with a political system.
I personally know several politicians including two ministers , all of them are "committed" people, the system grinds them down too, you know

Not go too off topic but the housing crisis is simply down to the ridiculous housing costs in Dublin still to this day,

thats like saying everything can be solved if its cheaper , its rather simplistic

We need to forget about housing estates in our larger towns and cities, they're a complete waste of land and go high rise, I'm talking 20 stories and beyond, this will maximise the amount of apartments on any given amount of land which should also make space for decent parks instead of concrete jungles estates with 6 foot high concrete walls all around and concrete out the front and no space for lawns, trees or hedges.

The customers . i.e. hours purchases want their detached and semi Ds, its the most popular type of house by far.

so now you want a dictatorship ....

Throwing more money at welfare instead of bring down the cost of living, more money into the HSE, a bottomless pit !

so solve the health crisis and the welfare issue then , would you prefer we were like the US, ( with terrible healthcare and a third world poverty )

I could go on but the point is that there's so much wrong with this country and our Governments way of thinking that it will take years to solve

Funnily people keep voting for the same, I suggest you form a political party and place your ideas before the electorate , last time I looked Ireland was still a democracy

11-10-2017 7:42am

I'm not a fan of of any party in Ireland really, full of old Skool buddy politics, I'll scratch your back etc.

We throw money at welfare instead of making it more attractive to work where I would rather for instance, see childcare subsidised more so both parents can work if they need to but the cost of living should not be so expensive that one can't stay at home.

We should make people less dependent on the state, for instance, the taxpayer should not be paying for houses for anyone really, the cost of a house should be affordable for any working person in Ireland. And the tax payer shouldn't have to subsidise the lower income earners, in other words, they shouldn't have to depend on the state if they're working. Yes there are people who need welfare but this should be a short term solution and I would not begrudge anyone anything that genuinely needs it.

We also shouldn't have to pay 500 million a year to wind energy companies, instead this should go to fund solar PV on every roof in Ireland and offer a proper FIT, give something back to the taxpayer and not give it to line the pockets of wind energy investors.

There's too much waste in the HSE.

Taxes are far too high, it's extortion.

KCross · 11-10-2017 9:06am

You make it all sound so simple to solve Mad_Lad. Like most politicians, particularly those who are into populous sound bites, find its very different when they are actually in power.

You have so many competing needs and a finite amount of money to make it happen you inevitably upset people.

Considering the amount of grant and VRT exemption that is given to EV I think its probably getting more than its fair share even though we all wish more was done on the infrastructure side.

There is an element of truth to oppenheimer's post that the cars are just going to have to get better (eventhough its not actually needed to own one) and more importantly cheaper. Unfortunately that approach will mean a much slower uptake and larger fines to the EU being imposed.

ELM327 · 11-10-2017 9:10am

KCross wrote: »

You make it all sound so simple to solve Mad_Lad. Like most politicians, particularly those who are into populous sound bites, find its very different when they are actually in power.

You have so many competing needs and a finite amount of money to make it happen you inevitably upset people.

Considering the amount of grant and VRT exemption that is given to EV I think its probably getting more than its fair share even though we all wish more was done on the infrastructure side.

There is an element of truth to oppenheimer's post that the cars are just going to have to get better (eventhough its not actually needed to own one) and more importantly cheaper. Unfortunately that approach will mean a much slower uptake and larger fines to the EU being imposed.

If you consider that each EV sold has between 5 and 10k (depending on the VRT amount) of a goverment grant applied, that's a large subsidy. I agree really, we need better, longer range EV, and a resolution to public charging before mass uptake can happen.

My father lives rurally, and was asking about EV as he's looking to change the car shortly. I told him not to get an EV as I couldnt reccomend it myself, the 30 minutes queueing at a single charger that may be out of order, in use, iced etc. I explained I thought his next car in 3 years may be a better time to buy in.

The irony is there are capable EV now being made. But we either dont have them in Ireland (Bolt EV) or they are too expensive for the general motorist (Tesla)

Water John · 11-10-2017 9:37am

Is the reality that, a public charging infrastructure will mainly be installed by private investors?

KCross · 11-10-2017 10:43am

Water John wrote: »

Is the reality that, a public charging infrastructure will mainly be installed by private investors?

In a mature market, absolutely thats how it should work.

Loads of providers with chargers everywhere and all vying and competing for business. We are so far from that point though that subsidy is required.

Dardania · 11-10-2017 12:01pm

KCross wrote: »

Water John wrote: »

Is the reality that, a public charging infrastructure will mainly be installed by private investors?

In a mature market, absolutely thats how it should work.

Loads of providers with chargers everywhere and all vying and competing for business. We are so far from that point though that subsidy is required.

At least there is the CRU requirement of open access to a common charging scheme, instead of needing to have 20 different ways to pay. SO the foundations for this commercial future are emerging.

KCross · 11-10-2017 12:07pm

As per Minister Naughten's budget release yesterday he is going to invest in the rapid charging network somehow.

Additional funding will be provided to support the provision of public charging with an increase on the number of rapid chargers.

Minister Ross is to provide details today. Im pinning my hopes to they having done some kind of deal with eCars but having it ring fenced somehow that they don't get to run off with the assets at a later date. Lets wait and see..

Orebro · 11-10-2017 12:21pm

Naughten was pretty firmly on the idea of rapid charging parks as opposed to dotting them around the place like now - wonder will they stick a few in clusters on the motorways?

And yes, surely this will have to be done with eCars?

liamog · 11-10-2017 12:34pm

Dardania wrote: »

At least there is the CRU requirement of open access to a common charging scheme, instead of needing to have 20 different ways to pay. SO the foundations for this commercial future are emerging.

They could extend the common payment scheme to all manner of things. Imagine you could walk into a shop and use the same method to pay for any type of goods. It would be a utopia

Dardania · 11-10-2017 12:43pm

liamog wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

At least there is the CRU requirement of open access to a common charging scheme, instead of needing to have 20 different ways to pay. SO the foundations for this commercial future are emerging.

They could extend the common payment scheme to all manner of things. Imagine you could walk into a shop and use the same method to pay for any type of goods. It would be a utopia

Just like how TfL recognise your debit card to pay the toll, and if you have a special ticket set up: https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/what-are-contactless-payment-cards?intcmp=8610
But in the short term, I suspect eCars' card will sustain - not quite utopia, but getting there

thierry14 · 11-10-2017 1:00pm

ELM327 wrote: »

If you consider that each EV sold has between 5 and 10k (depending on the VRT amount) of a goverment grant applied, that's a large subsidy. I agree really, we need better, longer range EV, and a resolution to public charging before mass uptake can happen.

My father lives rurally, and was asking about EV as he's looking to change the car shortly. I told him not to get an EV as I couldnt reccomend it myself, the 30 minutes queueing at a single charger that may be out of order, in use, iced etc. I explained I thought his next car in 3 years may be a better time to buy in.

The irony is there are capable EV now being made. But we either dont have them in Ireland (Bolt EV) or they are too expensive for the general motorist (Tesla)

Agree

Base Tesla Model 3 and Chevy Bolt are the only ones worthy mentioning to normal people, but are still too expensive themselves

Rest are just stopgaps like Ioniq, i3, Golf, Leaf until better tech comes along

They are throw away cars, in 10 years they will be fit for the bin, with degradatation making them town only cars.

I think a battery breakthrough is still needed, it might not be as goverments could force us into them

To be a better all rounder than ICE in everyway

They need to be able to charge way faster

Like 5-10 mins for 500km range

No battery degradatation for at least 7-8 years.

Need longer warranties for resale, minimum 8 years covering everything not just battery like now.

Minimum range in ICE is like 500km, EV's should be the same

unkel · 11-10-2017 1:17pm

thierry14 wrote: »

They are throw away cars, in 10 years they will be fit for the bin, with degradatation making them town only cars.

You haven't been paying much attention, have you?

Not sure if there is any point, but we'll try explain it to you again. All the cars you mention (except the very first gen Leaf) will most likely have at least 75% of usable battery left after 10 years. In a 200km EPA car that means 150km. Or 55k km per year (3 times the national average mileage a car does in Ireland). Not a town only car ready for the bin.

thierry14 · 11-10-2017 1:38pm

unkel wrote: »

You haven't been paying much attention, have you?

Not sure if there is any point, but we'll try explain it to you again. All the cars you mention (except the very first gen Leaf) will most likely have at least 75% of usable battery left after 10 years. In a 200km EPA car that means 150km. Or 55k km per year (3 times the national average mileage a car does in Ireland). Not a town only car ready for the bin.

I dont think you have been paying attention either

They will be throw away, no doubt

Will you be keeping your Ioniq for 10 years, no you won't.

Why would you want that crap when a battery breakthrough comes, because with the money going around there will be one

No one wants a 150km at best car, totally impracticale and useless to the general public

You don't know whats around the corner tech wise, so dont be so confident the EV's of today will be desirable in 10 years ( they are not even desirable today lol, besides the Teslas)

DrPhilG · 11-10-2017 1:45pm

thierry14 wrote: »

No one wants a 150km at best car, totally impracticale and useless to the general public

Isn't that better than what most of us here have been driving for years?

It's not attractive to people now for reasons of perception.

But fast forward 10 years when EVs are much more mainstream and those 10 year old EVs will be ideal second cars in 2 car households or cheap options for those who are keen to dip their toes.

thierry14 · 11-10-2017 2:13pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

Isn't that better than what most of us here have been driving for years?

It's not attractive to people now for reasons of perception.

But fast forward 10 years when EVs are much more mainstream and those 10 year old EVs will be ideal second cars in 2 car households or cheap options for those who are keen to dip their toes.

What youve been driving around for years are for geeks, eco people, crazy commuters, frugal people , techies, a niche market

Maybe they will be desirable as a very cheap run around if no tech breakthrough, you could be right.

Current EV's with maybe the exception of Tesla are not futureproof with regard lifespan and serious depreciation imo

They are at the mercy of a tech breakthrough like no other

Residual values are not bad now as battery shortage and tech hasnt improved much in last few years, demand for certain EV's like Ioniq and model 3's cant keep up with demand, they will have good resale value for a while

When the market gets flooded with them and a tech breakthrough arises, I hope most took out pcp and can hand the keys back.

Orebro · 11-10-2017 2:15pm

Sure the same could be said about anything. Don't buy that laptop now, it'll be superseded by something better in a few years. Don't build your house now, there will be far superior insulation / solar panels etc etc in a few years. Your argument makes no sense at all!

thierry14 · 11-10-2017 2:29pm

Orebro wrote: »

Sure the same could be said about anything. Don't buy that laptop now, it'll be superseded by something better in a few years. Don't build your house now, there will be far superior insulation / solar panels etc etc in a few years. Your argument makes no sense at all!

Laptops, houses etc are good enough now

EV's are not ( bar Tesla)

Is that hard to understand?

Would i recomenend a 200km max, 150km in a few years, 30k car to general public, no I wouldn't

KCross · 11-10-2017 2:29pm

thierry14 wrote: »

What youve been driving around for years are for geeks, eco people, crazy commuters, frugal people , techies, a niche market

Maybe they will be desirable as a very cheap run around if no tech breakthrough, you could be right.

Current EV's with maybe the exception of Tesla are not futureproof with regard lifespan and serious depreciation imo

They are at the mercy of a tech breakthrough like no other

Residual values are not bad now as battery shortage and tech hasnt improved much in last few years, demand for certain EV's like Ioniq and model 3's cant keep up with demand, they will have good resale value for a while

When the market gets flooded with them and a tech breakthrough arises, I hope most took out pcp and can hand the keys back.

How much is an ICE car worth after 10yrs?
What is its average lifespan?

Todays EV's will last as long and when they are done the battery will be used for something else.

Most of what you've said is just scaremongering.

Don't hold your breath for a battery breakthrough either to be in a high volume production car for a long time to come. There are announcements every few months but all of them so far have a problem... either they have brilliant capacity but short lifespan or long life span but slow charging etc etc etc. And once the actual breakthrough occurs it will take a few more years beyond that for it to be in a high volume production car.

thierry14 · 11-10-2017 2:38pm

KCross wrote: »

How much is an ICE car worth after 10yrs?
What is its average lifespan?

Todays EV's will last as long and when they are done the battery will be used for something else.

Most of what you've said is just scaremongering.

Don't hold your breath for a battery breakthrough either to be in a high volume production car for a long time to come. There are announcements every few months but all of them so far have a problem... either they have brilliant capacity but short lifespan or long life span but slow charging etc etc etc. And once the actual breakthrough occurs it will take a few more years beyond that for it to be in a high volume production car.

Residuals are still uknown as its a niche market still, when market is flooded with them we will see.

Modern ICE cars can last a long long time, my friends 2008 2.2 diesel Accord drives like new, no issues at all in 10 years

Maybe it is scaremongering and no breakthrough will come, we will see

I will leave it there before mod warning for derailing thread again

Orebro · 11-10-2017 2:45pm

Yeah, the pub talk about me mates Passat TDI with 600k Kms on it and he only changed the oil twice in 10 years - really helpful.

CRU (formerly CER) review of charging infrastructure

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