CRU (formerly CER) review of charging infrastructure

07-10-2017 7:49pm

The tax payer has to fund half a billion a year, actually more each year to the bank accounts of wind energy investors, how disgusting and immoral is that ? and we get nothing in return only the announcement of higher energy bills coming in February , total scum bags ripping us off like this !!!

And 1 billion for smart meters ? such a joke of a country !

BoatMad · 07-10-2017 7:51pm

KCross wrote: »

I get they can sell it to themselves and charge what they like and its unregulated.

But you know as well as the rest of us its not commercially viable so how do you see it playing out?

I cannot see ESBn funding eCars to the tune of €4m+ a year for the next 10yrs with little income. We wont hit 20k EV's by 2020. I doubt we'll hit 50k by 2025.... the figures just don't add up for making it commercially viable.

Even if they brought in the last mad scheme they floated, it wouldn't put a dent on that €4m.

Do you really think they will bring in a charging regime and that will be that... it will magically make money?

ESB board chairman Paul Mulvaney has indicated that the board " will invest ", as to how long that piece of string is , we shall see

EV users will see significant pricing for the use of chargers , Ive seen the view of ESB internal economists and is not pleasant

ESB will be taking the view that 4-5 years subsidy , would be acceptable as numbers build and user revenue build , we shall see if they are right

The last of summer wine, get it while you can

BoatMad · 07-10-2017 7:53pm

Do you really think they will bring in a charging regime and that will be that... it will magically make money?

Many EV owners have no choice , and ESB know this , pay or sell the EV. thats about the size of it

ESB know it wont break even for a few years , thats acceptable to them , after all they have got the whole thing effectively handed to them forfree.

cros13 · 07-10-2017 7:58pm

BoatMad wrote: »

ESB board chairman Paul Mulvaney has indicated that the board " will invest ", as to how long that piece of string is , we shall see

Possibly as far replacing the chademo and chademo/AC rapids with triple heads but not much more.

BoatMad · 07-10-2017 8:01pm

cros13 wrote: »

Possibly as far replacing the chademo and chademo/AC rapids with triple heads but not much more.

I think they will do a selective upgrade especially around Dublin, which is where most paying customers are

the ESB are actually quite " excited " about getting hold of the network, they think they have another " mobile phone " network bonanza ( in time) on their hands.

and of course nothing stoping ESB doing a Fastned on it either

KCross · 07-10-2017 8:09pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Many EV owners have no choice , and ESB know this , pay or sell the EV. thats about the size of it

ESB know it wont break even for a few years , thats acceptable to them , after all they have got the whole thing effectively handed to them forfree.

Its not free. They have to pay for it at some point in the future. How much is anyones guess but its not going to be free and they are already down €6m, so far from free and each year that passes they will be adding another €4m to that debt pile!

Of course some people will have no choice but to pay whatever eCars decide but a lot of people won't and if they want a commercially viable network they have to balance the charging regime against discouraging people from buying EV's in the first place.... its not like they are getting a brilliant network and 10s of thousands of ready made users... its, what, 3000 EV's or so..... miniscule.

If eCars plan is to ride it out for 5yrs they are in for a rude awakening. They will be seriously in debt at that stage and if longer range EV's become the norm they are sunk simply because of how small this island is.

I just can't see the business plan here.

BoatMad · 07-10-2017 11:03pm

I just can't see the business plan here.

me neither , which is why the decision to wash the CERs hands of it is so unfortunate.

n97 mini · 07-10-2017 11:15pm

KCross wrote: »

Its not free. They have to pay for it at some point in the future. How much is anyones guess but its not going to be free and they are already down €6m, so far from free and each year that passes they will be adding another €4m to that debt pile!

Ah here. For a semi-state company that makes €200m a year profit €6m is but a drop in the ocean. The ESB can well afford the network.

Then there's the whole Brendan Ogle debacle. ESB were paying his 80k salary despite him not actually doing any work for the ESB, but instead being a trade unionist. Only in Ireland.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0901/305605-esb/

unkel · 07-10-2017 11:53pm

And the average wage in the ESB is €100k. Only in Ireland indeed.

KCross · 08-10-2017 10:12am

n97 mini wrote: »

KCross wrote: »

Its not free. They have to pay for it at some point in the future. How much is anyones guess but its not going to be free and they are already down €6m, so far from free and each year that passes they will be adding another €4m to that debt pile!

Ah here. For a semi-state company that makes €200m a year profit €6m is but a drop in the ocean. The ESB can well afford the network.

You miss my point. Of course they can afford it, they are a hugely profitable company but putting money into a loss making venture doesn't make sense... that's the point.

Dardania · 08-10-2017 10:21am

From reading the decision paper, I wasn't hugely struck that quality of service to the end user was a huge concern

Dardania · 08-10-2017 10:21am

From reading the decision paper, I wasn't hugely struck that quality of service to the end user was a huge concern

ELM327 · 08-10-2017 10:26am

I'm pretty sure it was not mentioned

n97 mini · 08-10-2017 10:48am

KCross wrote: »

You miss my point. Of course they can afford it, they are a hugely profitable company but putting money into a loss making venture doesn't make sense... that's the point.

You can ring fence any part of their operations that doesn't make money and say the same.

Orebro · 08-10-2017 10:49am

Bloody hell. I for one am delighted that I can operate without using the public infrastructure 99% of the time. What a mess.

Edit: did the CER take on board anything the IEVOA had to say?

mel.b · 08-10-2017 10:55am

Orebro wrote: »

Bloody hell. I for one am delighted that I can operate without using the public infrastructure 99% of the time. What a mess.

Edit: did the CER take on board anything the IEVOA had to say?

Ditto.

There was a mention in the report about the IEVOA and that charging could (?should) be available on a per kwh basis rather than time and this was accepted as a method of charging. However I presume it will be up the operator.

aliveandkicking · 08-10-2017 11:12am

Question for those who know how these things work. The government own ESB so now that the network has been "given" to them can the Minister simply instruct the ESB to invest in the charging network or is it more complicated than that?

KCross · 08-10-2017 11:16am

n97 mini wrote: »

You can ring fence any part of their operations that doesn't make money and say the same.

Such as?

Maybe you understand the internals of ESB better than me but their remit is to generate and deliver electricity.... thats all one activity really and is hugely profitable.

Providing EV charging infrastructure is not a core piece of what they are about and the point still remains, why would you invest in something new to your business model that is loss making for the foreseeable future... its not a business plan that any sane business would make unless there was some funding coming externally.

ELM327 · 08-10-2017 11:21am

KCross wrote: »

Such as?

Maybe you understand the internals of ESB better than me but their remit is to generate and deliver electricity.... thats all one activity really and is hugely profitable.

Providing EV charging infrastructure is not a core piece of what they are about and the point still remains, why would you invest in something new to your business model that is loss making for the foreseeable future... its not a business plan that any sane business would make unless there was some funding coming externally.

There are various ringfenced ESB companies that may or may not be profitable.
ESB/Electric Ireland, Eirgrid, ESBN, ESBI are just some, I'm out of the energy game a few years so it may have changed since then.

It could be argued that providing an ECars infrastructure is the self-same business model, at least on a networks perspective. It would make sense (too much for Ireland to adopt of course) that there was a central network ran and maintained by ESBN to wihich all suppliers had access to. A separate MPRN could be assigned for your network access and you receive a monthly bill. You have freedom to choose suppliers who can resell you electricity.

n97 mini · 08-10-2017 11:23am

KCross wrote: »

Such as?

Maybe you understand the internals of ESB better than me but their remit is to generate and deliver electricity.... thats all one activity really and is hugely profitable.

Providing EV charging infrastructure is not a core piece of what they are about and the point still remains, why would you invest in something new to your business model that is loss making for the foreseeable future... its not a business plan that any sane business would make unless there was some funding coming externally.

They deliver electricity to the meter in your house, and I would view delivery to your car similarly. The only difference is in accounting.

ESB is not any sane business. It's a commercial semi-state that's hugely profitable. In my opinion if it wants to operate like a truly commercial company it needs to be one in every area and not be selective.

ELM327 · 08-10-2017 11:24am

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Question for those who know how these things work. The government own ESB so now that the network has been "given" to them can the Minister simply instruct the ESB to invest in the charging network or is it more complicated than that?

The government own some of ESB. They do not fully own ESB.
However they do fully own ESBN. (ECars)

It's not possible for the minister to direct them to invest in the network without providing the funding. Providing the funding seems to be against state aid rules from the EU. Hence the impasse.

ELM327 · 08-10-2017 11:27am

n97 mini wrote: »

They deliver electricity to the meter in your house, and I would view delivery to your car similarly. The only difference is in accounting.

ESB is not any sane business. It's a commercial semi-state that's hugely profitable. In my opinion if it wants to operate like a truly commercial company it needs to be one in every area and not be selective.

You can't have competition in the Transmission/Distribution networks.
It doesnt work like that. Similarly the likes of Eirgrid cannot be commercial.

The only fully commercial org currently within the ESB family is Electric Ireland (In Ireland). The likes of ESBI etc are somewhat separate as they don't really operate in Ireland.

I agree with the rest of your post.

thierry14 · 08-10-2017 11:34am

Becoming pretty clear that manufacturers/ private service stations need to be the future of fast charging networks

Goverment/former state run companies in this country will be always be unreliable ****e

Water John · 08-10-2017 11:34am

The only way the public charging infrastructure makes sense for the ESB, is to see as part of the larger EV picture.
A major switch to EVs will greatly increase the night usage and give a more balanced commercial operation, as well as greater sales. The public charging that they would own and run, even though loss making in itself, would be an adjunct to the main EV trend.

The whole EV project would be very beneficial and profitable, to the ESB. It simply has to carry the public charging infrastructure (PCI) as a loss maker within the over all project.
Without PCI the bigger EV project will be handicapped. That is not in ESB's overall commercial interest. EV's are probably ESB's biggest growth potential area.
The PCI cannot be analysed or viewed, as a stand alone.

ELM327 · 08-10-2017 11:45am

thierry14 wrote: »

Becoming pretty clear that manufacturers/ private service stations need to be the future of fast charging networks

Goverment/former state run companies in this country will be always be unreliable ****e

Yes I agree.
But in the place we are now in (artificial monopoly created and gifted to ESBN) what private enterprise will buy in to the market?

Ideally we need Ecotricity or Fastned but, they won't invest against the pre-existing state monopoly

Falcon L · 08-10-2017 1:04pm

Water John wrote: »

The only way the public charging infrastructure makes sense for the ESB, is to see as part of the larger EV picture.
A major switch to EVs will greatly increase the night usage and give a more balanced commercial operation, as well as greater sales. The public charging that they would own and run, even though loss making in itself, would be an adjunct to the main EV trend.

The whole EV project would be very beneficial and profitable, to the ESB. It simply has to carry the public charging infrastructure (PCI) as a loss maker within the over all project.
Without PCI the bigger EV project will be handicapped. That is not in ESB's overall commercial interest. EV's are probably ESB's biggest growth potential area.
The PCI cannot be analysed or viewed, as a stand alone.

I couldn't agree more with this. Electricity is the petrol of the future. Selling it will be huge!

Water John · 08-10-2017 1:26pm

Indeed, petrol retail makes very little money ATM, most survive on the ancillaries, shop etc.

I see mention a few times of these superfast chargers. When is it likely that they will appear in the marketplace?

cros13 · 08-10-2017 1:55pm

Water John wrote: »

Indeed, petrol retail makes very little money ATM, most survive on the ancillaries, shop etc.

I see mention a few times of these superfast chargers. When is it likely that they will appear in the marketplace?

First ones already in the wild (public installs in Berlin, Munich, Switzerland and just south of Oslo.). All the major charger manufacturers have options for sale.

ABB has the Terra HP: http://www.abb.com/cawp/seitp202/c2ed43a8ef2e1de2c12581ae002d26b8.aspx
Chargepoint has the Express Plus (InstaVolt in the UK has bought 200 of these): https://www.chargepoint.com/products/commercial/express-plus/
efacec has the HV350: http://electricmobility.efacec.com/ev-high-power/
Tritium has the Veefil-PK (up to 475kW): http://www.tritium.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/JUL-EV-charging-infrastructure-specialist-Tritium-raises-10m-in-record-time-to-take-its-new-products-to-the-world.pdf

Asuuming the battery is set up to take the power, a 400kW rapid charger will give you 60kWh in 10 minutes including ramp up and down (60kWh would be enough for a 15kWh/100km EV to do 400km).

jimmycrackcorm · 08-10-2017 3:45pm

KCross wrote:

If eCars plan is to ride it out for 5yrs they are in for a rude awakening. They will be seriously in debt at that stage and if longer range EV's become the norm they are sunk simply because of how small this island is.

The problem with long range is still that you can go from A to B without stopping, but you'll still need to charge somewhat to get back. Otherwise you'd wonder why we have petrol stations dotted along routes instead of just in towns where people might start their journeys by filling up.

Also I don't foresee any large move to having many existing apartments install charging points.

KCross · 08-10-2017 4:50pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The problem with long range is still that you can go from A to B without stopping, but you'll still need to charge somewhat to get back. Otherwise you'd wonder why we have petrol stations dotted along routes instead of just in towns where people might start their journeys by filling up.

True, if you are doing a long range (300km+) return journey on the same day.

Not necessarily true if its a long journey over, say, a weekend where you would have destination charging so starting out with a full "tank" at the start of each leg, its a point often overlooked by ICE drivers.

Thats one of the positives of EV, being able to fuel your own car without going to a 3rd party for it!

CRU (formerly CER) review of charging infrastructure

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