CRU (formerly CER) review of charging infrastructure

DrPhilG

Basically we're screwed?

No more funding, EV users to be gouged for the money to upkeep the network?

mel.b

DrPhilG wrote: »

Basically we're screwed?

No more funding, EV users to be gouged for the money to upkeep the network?

Sounds like it Especially with the planned 'transitional' phase that could last several years I don't think there will be any investment in new chargers.

DrPhilG

It's just going to come back to the same issue. The fairness of the charges.

I don't mind paying a fair amount. But the subscription plus price gouging that they tried on the last time was scandalous and even with the increase in users brought by the Ioniq and ongoing high Leaf sales, a BS pricing scheme could seriously damage the market.

Plus this opens up the whole can of worms that while you can't really complain about a free service, how much more murky will things become when we're paying (extortionately probably) for a service and they're not delivering, whether by spaces not being accessible, broken etc.

Well whatever gets the infrastructure moving, currently it's at a dead end in Ireland.


From what I gather the ESB will buy the network and are free to do what they want ?

But if they charge usage I do not mind this at all as long as we're not forced into a monthly subscription. Most people will not be buying EV until they have at least 60 Kwh of storage and at this point public charging will be rare.

However I am disappointed not to read of support for apartment owners and those with no parking space who will have to depend 100% on the charging infrastructure.

We need a law making EV charging a right.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

Plus this opens up the whole can of worms that while you can't really complain about a free service, how much more murky will things become when we're paying (extortionately probably) for a service and they're not delivering, whether by spaces not being accessible, broken etc.

Well at that point we all have a right to complain. The ESB know they need to have a proper service or it will be pointless.

mel.b

Deleted User wrote: »

Well whatever gets the infrastructure moving, currently it's at a dead end in Ireland.


From what I gather the ESB will buy the network and are free to do what they want ?

But if they charge usage I do not mind this at all as long as we're not forced into a monthly subscription. Most people will not be buying EV until they have at least 60 Kwh of storage and at this point public charging will be rare.

However I am disappointed not to read of support for apartment owners and those with no parking space who will have to depend 100% on the charging infrastructure.

We need a law making EV charging a right.

From what I understood, ESB will have it for a transitional period and it will then be sold an an appropriate time to maximise return on investment. It is thought that the transitional time could be several years. So will there actually be any increase in infrastructure in that time?

Orebro

I can understand any decisions being made, but the elephant in the room for me is the number of EVs in Ireland which is still tiny. To me there simply aren’t enough EVs to make it commercially viable for any business to make a profit from the charging infrastructure, regardless of the number of 2nd hand Leafs coming in from the UK. Also, any sniff by Joe public of paying for charging at this point will kill EV sales both new and 2nd hand.

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well at that point we all have a right to complain. The ESB know they need to have a proper service or it will be pointless.

We then have a right to complain, but does anybody have any expectation of a decent service? Does anybody have any faith in the ESB to deliver given the atrocious effort at a pricing scheme they produced last time?

Well to be honest I'd say the last pricing scheme was a test to see how EV owners would react.

There won't be many ev owners changing to EV until there are many more ev models to choose and until range is a good 300+ kms but I expect Irish drivers will change more when manufacturers change meaning Diesel and petrol are not as attractive to buy or are not as easily available.

Free public charging since 2011 did not encourage many ev owners to change and it certainly wan't my decision for buying EV.

cros13

The one good thing is that they've clarified that charges can be per kWh without requiring a supplier license.

The CRU can confirm that it continues to hold this view, namely use of the charging infrastructure
is not considered as supply of electricity as defined in the Act. In simple terms, while the supply
of electricity to the EV charging point will require a supply licence (in the same way as supply to
any premises), the charging of a vehicle does not require a supply licence.
For the avoidance of doubt, the view that charging of EVs does not require a supply licence holds
regardless of whether or not such charging is made on a per kWh basis (or any other basis). The
key point is that the vehicle is not a “single premises” which is the provision in the legislation.

Just to clarify how far we are from commercial viability... given the likely number of customers and the operating costs on the network, ESB eCars would have to find ~€4000 per customer per year just to maintain the current network or at least €10k per customer per annum for a mild expansion of the rapid charger network.

DrPhilG

cros13 wrote: »

ESB eCars would have to find ~€4000 per customer per year just to maintain the current network or at least €10k per customer per annum

Don't be giving them ideas...

I think what will happen is that charges will be introduced first to see if it cuts down on usage and then concentrate on adding charging capacity to the areas in higher demand.

Dont be at yourself

Two interesting aspects:

 The CRU expects that ESBN will enter into an Operating Agreement with an appropriate party for the operation of the assets, and submit it to the CRU for approval, within six months of this Decision.
 The CRU expects that the operating agreement will provide for third party access to the payment system to enable the customers of parties other than ESB eCars to purchase access to the assets.

So, charging could be introduced as soon as within the next 6 months, pending CRU approval.

The second point is more interesting; to me it sounds almost like the ‘local loop unbundling’ of Eircom exchanges; different providers will be able to use the same infrastructure to provide their own service. I can imagine the various energy providers offering access to the charging network as an incentive to switch.

All in all, I don’t think it’s doom & gloom. I think a transition to paid-for charging is overall a very positive thing — especially as any costs will be more than compensated for in tomorrow’s budget, in terms of increased incentives elsewhere. It will help greatly in reducing abuse of the network. However, the open-ended transitionary period does seem a typical case of kicking the can down the road; if the intention is to commercialize the network, I don’t know why the network is not immediately put up for sale; I’d imagine ESB eCars themselves would be a willing buyer if they could operate it on a commercial basis.

Evd-Burner

Deleted User wrote: »

I think what will happen is that charges will be introduced first to see if it cuts down on usage and then concentrate on adding charging capacity to the areas in higher demand.

Yeah I think your right. The chargers in higher demand will likely be the commuter routes.

cros13

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

I think a transition to paid-for charging is overall a very positive thing — especially as any costs will be more than compensated for in tomorrow’s budget, in terms of increased incentives elsewhere. It will help greatly in reducing abuse of the network.

I agree that charges are required... The issue is that there is no way 2000 EV owners who do 95% of their charging at home for an average €1-2 will be able to meet even 10% of operating expenses. As optimistic as I am about the growth of EVs in Ireland I don't see commercial viability on the cards for nearly a decade. And that would be for an effective monopoly.

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

However, the open-ended transitionary period does seem a typical case of kicking the can down the road; if the intention is to commercialize the network, I don’t know why the network is not immediately put up for sale; I’d imagine ESB eCars themselves would be a willing buyer if they could operate it on a commercial basis.

Nobody would buy it. As a commercial venture the network is basically worthless, of the 1300-odd chargepoints in the network, 1200 are level 2 chargepoints in varying states of repair, there are 75 rapids, only 44 of which are compatible with most EV models and less than 10 are in suitable locations where grid connections and access allow for upgrade to multi-rapid or 150kW+. The head office management stuff is all OCPP and carries no inherent value. We are literally in a situation where less than 1% of the install base would be attractive to a commercial operator like the UK's Ecotricity.

aliveandkicking

One of the options is that ESB secure government funding for the network. I believe that is the most likely short term scenario. It can't be a coincidence that this announcement came out a day before the budget can it? It might not be all doom and gloom after all.

DesperateDan

Maybe Tesla will save us all in the next 5 years?!

Water John

Well Naughton seems to be pushing a package incl home chargers for 2nd hand EVs. Not sure if Ross has much input. Will be odd to be helping the switch to EVs on one level and not another. It has to be a complete package.
Are we serious or just pretending we're doing something?

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

From what I gather the ESB will buy the network and are free to do what they want ?

I don't think so. They get to keep it for now but have to sell it at a later date under instruction/approval from the CRU.

Deleted User wrote: »

However I am disappointed not to read of support for apartment owners and those with no parking space who will have to depend 100% on the charging infrastructure.

We need a law making EV charging a right.

Huh! You expected the CRU to comment or create a policy on that. How is that in their remit?!

Thats a government decision surely.

aliveandkicking wrote: »

One of the options is that ESB secure government funding for the network. I believe that is the most likely short term scenario. It can't be a coincidence that this announcement came out a day before the budget can it? It might not be all doom and gloom after all.

I agree, there must be government funding coming.


My reading of it is this..

- The network isn't being handed to ESBn as such. They are being asked to maintain it without further DUoS funding.
- ESBn won't run it out of the goodness of their hearts or use their profits to cross fund it.
- ESBn have to sell it at some later date which gives them little incentive to pump their own money in.
- Even if they bring in a charging regime it won't come anywhere close to covering Opex, not to mind the additional CapEx thats required
- Its not financially viable as is.

Ergo, the money has to come from somewhere and that can only be the government. If the government don't stump up raw hard cash it would mean the ESBn would bleed money as a result and they won't do that.


The third party access that eCars have to give to the billing system is an interesting element here.

The CRU expects that the operating agreement will provide for third party access to the payment system to enable the customers of parties other than ESB eCars to purchase access to the assets.

Hopefully that might bring some other operators in or allow us to pay via our domestic bills and they have also clarified that kWh billing is allowed so that all fits nicely.


All in all I don't think the decision is that bad. I would have preferred option 1 (add to the RAB) but at least they didn't just go for a simple option 4 of handing it over for free to ESBn

We need to wait for the budget to really see how this is going to play out.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

Huh! You expected the CRU to comment or create a policy on that. How is that in their remit?!

Thats a government decision surely.

No, I don't expect CER to have anything to do with this and it's not what I meant, I meant in the grand scheme of things Apartment charging is a huge issue and far greater than public charging because people won't want to depend on public charging for all their charging needs.

BoatMad

mel.b wrote: »

From what I understood, ESB will have it for a transitional period and it will then be sold an an appropriate time to maximise return on investment. It is thought that the transitional time could be several years. So will there actually be any increase in infrastructure in that time?

The expected outcome is that ESB will effectively sell it to itself , i.e. payback the CER some value back and while own the network

BoatMad

All in all I don't think the decision is that bad. I would have preferred option 1 (add to the RAB) but at least they didn't just go for a simple option 4 of handing it over for free to ESBn

Err, they basically did , ther will be no oversight in charges and the absence of an Electricity Supplier license , means that no regulation will exist of the pricing regime that can be charged to EV users.

The decision is exactly as we expected , whats even surprising is they are not looking for the 28 million back

BoatMad

aliveandkicking wrote: »

One of the options is that ESB secure government funding for the network. I believe that is the most likely short term scenario. It can't be a coincidence that this announcement came out a day before the budget can it? It might not be all doom and gloom after all.

AT present the DCCAE sees no mechanism where state aid would not fall foul of Europe

BoatMad

I agree that charges are required... The issue is that there is no way 2000 EV owners who do 95% of their charging at home for an average €1-2 will be able to meet even 10% of operating expenses. As optimistic as I am about the growth of EVs in Ireland I don't see commercial viability on the cards for nearly a decade. And that would be for an effective monopoly.

There is no evidence at all that charges would lead to a better network, thats the fallacy at the heart of that concept. All we may get is a more expensive crappy network , rathe then a free crappy one

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Well at that point we all have a right to complain. The ESB know they need to have a proper service or it will be pointless.

yes how'd that work for years with Ryanair

" Shut ye bunch of whingers " was the typical comeback

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

Err, they basically did , ther will be no oversight in charges and the absence of an Electricity Supplier license , means that no regulation will exist of the pricing regime that can be charged to EV users.

Not really.
They have to give access to 3rd parties. There must be a reason for that stipulation going in.

And they have to sell it. Even if its to eCars they would have to raise significant funds.

ESBn are already down €6m+ of their own money and the CRU refused to allow them get that back and do you really think that they are going to pump 10s of millions more into a network with little prospect of breaking even not to mind make a profit and the ESB are not in the business of losing money.

Some money has to be pumped in here somewhere as any charging regime they bring in will only be a pin prick to what its costing to run.

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

Not really.
They have to give access to 3rd parties. There must be a reason for that stipulation going in.

And they have to sell it. Even if its to eCars they would have to raise significant funds.

ESBn are already down €6m+ of their own money and the CRU refused to allow them get that back and do you really think that they are going to pump 10s of millions more into a network with little prospect of breaking even not to mind make a profit and the ESB are not in the business of losing money.

Some money has to be pumped in here somewhere as any charging regime they bring in will only be a pin prick to what its costing to run.

You are reading this incorrectly

ESBN intend to set up Ecars Ireland as a commercial entity., that been flagged already. Hence as required by the CER ESBN will "sell " the network in effect to itself , The board of the ESB can fund Ecars anyway it wants, it is not restricted to DUoS.

AT some point ECars will get commercial ownership and the money they pay will revert to the CER

The bit about third parties is simply that Ecars must allow operators of the charge points access to the payment systems ( and its completely without detail )

its a complete unregulated transfer to ECars , who can do as they like with the network

The Board of ESB will now fund the network , as its powers up a commercial package

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

AT present the DCCAE sees no mechanism where state aid would not fall foul of Europe

The Germans are subsidising rapid charger installation with public money.... sure CapEx being subsidised not OpEx and open competition for the grants.
FastNed got close to €5m.

But Estonia is getting away with funding their 165-strong ELMO rapid charger network through a CO2 emission quota sales agreement with Mitsubishi....

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

The Germans are subsidising rapid charger installation with public money.... sure CapEx being subsidised not OpEx and open competition for the grants.
FastNed got close to €5m.

But Estonia is getting away with funding their 165-strong ELMO rapid charger network through a CO2 emission quota sales agreement with Mitsubishi....

I am merely quoting the civil servants involved.

The Government can look at accelerated allowances and issues within tax competency. They certainly cant hand money directly to a single commercial entity that is ESBN or its bastard offspring , Ecars

The fact remains , Opex will have to be carried by the ESB board ( they do have deep pockets ) and financed on a day to day by user pricing regimes

The board of the ESB have got exactly what they asked for, a completely unregulated transfer of the charger infrastructure , with an unspecified timeline in which two pay back the CER

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

You are reading this incorrectly

ESBN intend to set up Ecars Ireland as a commercial entity., that been flagged already. Hence as required by the CER ESBN will "sell " the network in effect to itself , The board of the ESB can fund Ecars anyway it wants, it is not restricted to DUoS.

AT some point ECars will get commercial ownership and the money they pay will revert to the CER

The bit about third parties is simply that Ecars must allow operators of the charge points access to the payment systems ( and its completely without detail )

its a complete unregulated transfer to ECars , who can do as they like with the network

The Board of ESB will now fund the network , as its powers up a commercial package

I get they can sell it to themselves and charge what they like and its unregulated.

But you know as well as the rest of us its not commercially viable so how do you see it playing out?

I cannot see ESBn funding eCars to the tune of €4m+ a year for the next 10yrs with little income. We wont hit 20k EV's by 2020. I doubt we'll hit 50k by 2025.... the figures just don't add up for making it commercial.

Even if they brought in the last mad scheme they floated, it wouldn't put a dent on that €4m.


Do you really think they will bring in a charging regime and that will be that... it will magically make money?