Unions warn of train strike as staff demand pay increase

Nomis21 · 22-09-2017 11:18am #1

How do you think this will pan out?

Will it go the way of the Bus Eireann dispute this Summer... Passengers discommoded for weeks before an agreement is reached.

Or will the Government make a stand causing the collapse of Irish rail?

Or will the Government capitulate and then attempt to privatise the railways?

None of the above?

Hammer89 · 22-09-2017 11:31am

Nomis21 wrote: »

Will it go the way of the Bus Eireann dispute this Summer... Passengers discommoded for weeks before an agreement is reached.

There's no toilets on the Dart.

Kimbot · 22-09-2017 11:32am

MOD Moved to Commuting & Transport, please take note of the charter.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 22-09-2017 11:32am

Hammer89 wrote: »

There's no toilets on the Dart.

It's the unions favorite word when there's a strike.

Nomis21 · 22-09-2017 11:33am

Toilets on the dart is not the issue the Unions are striking for

discommode:

ˌdɪskəˈməʊd
verb formal
cause (someone) trouble or inconvenience.

Jamie2k9 · 22-09-2017 12:26pm

They will probally strike for a day or two. It sure won't be the "mother of all strikes" as the NBRU said about the BE one.

WomanSkirtFan8 · 22-09-2017 4:34pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They will probally strike for a day or two. It sure won't be the "mother of all strikes" as the NBRU said about the BE one.

Indeed. I can foresee this going the exact same way as the BE strike. Probably won't last too long if the company does indeed go bankrupt and they then have to start making people redundant. :cool:

Stephen15 · 22-09-2017 6:07pm

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

Indeed. I can foresee this going the exact same way as the BE strike. Probably won't last too long if the company does indeed go bankrupt and they then have to start making people redundant. :cool:

The way these things seem to go it the company will not go bankrupt. Nearly all state owned railways around the world are heavily in debt and verging on 'bankruptcy' but miraclously manage to keep going. Whether you like or not IE and the unions aren't going anywhere any time soon.

Nomis21 · 22-09-2017 7:08pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

The way these things seem to go it the company will not go bankrupt. Nearly all state owned railways around the world are heavily in debt and verging on 'bankruptcy' but miraclously manage to keep going. Whether you like or not IE and the unions aren't going anywhere any time soon.

Yes, but unlike IE, many European railways are operated by private companies where the unions have far less power.

If there is another strike on IE then I think privatisation is on the cards...

ClovenHoof · 22-09-2017 7:13pm

Along with their insatiable greed, the unions are thicko bastards too. The BE 'mother of all strikes' played perfectly into the Government's hands and they came out with nothing other than a PR disaster for themselves. Irish Rail unions appear to be just as moronic and will also play themselves into the same trap.

The days of when Irish people were gullible and supported semi state unions striking are well and truly dead. The only ones who have not figured this out yet are the CIE unions.

Hilly Bill · 22-09-2017 8:13pm

Nomis21 wrote: »

Yes, but unlike IE, many European railways are operated by private companies where the unions have far less power.

If there is another strike on IE then I think privatisation is on the cards...

Half the company is already privatised.

Stephen15 · 22-09-2017 8:14pm

Nomis21 wrote: »

Yes, but unlike IE, many European railways are operated by private companies where the unions have far less power.

If there is another strike on IE then I think privatisation is on the cards...

So DB, SNCF, FS, NS, SNCF, OBB and Renfe are all private companies.

The UK is one of the only countries if not the only to have a privatised or franchised railway and even there, there is strikes. You honly to look at the whole Southern Rail dispute to realise that private transport companies are not immune to strikes.

Jamie2k9 · 22-09-2017 9:57pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Half the company is already privatised.

Come on it's so not true, union spin is what it is.

You are referring to the company split??

devnull · 22-09-2017 10:07pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Come on it's so not true, union spin is what it is.

You are referring to the company split??

Who own the shares of each company?

Jamie2k9 · 22-09-2017 10:09pm

Nomis21 wrote: »

Yes, but unlike IE, many European railways are operated by private companies where the unions have far less power.

If there is another strike on IE then I think privatisation is on the cards...

Union grip on IE is fast diminishing, largely self inflected through reckless actions over the last number of years and most recently BE and IE lads (some only) deliberately causing disruption to IE service in solidarity. I don't think unions have grasped how much damage it has done even if they annoyed some workers in IE who wanted no involvement. Most of the old boys probally don't care anyway.

The NBRU announcement today just shows they have no interest in the talks at WRC even if IE are just as bad. Nobody gets a pay rise for nothing so expecting it is just going though the motions before they decide to ballot.

Jamie2k9 · 22-09-2017 10:11pm

devnull wrote: »

Who own the shares of each company?

The Goverment, they have split the company into infrastructure and operations. More less an adjustment of paperwork after the EU regulation change.

devnull · 22-09-2017 10:12pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The Goverment, they have split the company into infrastructure and operations. More less an adjustment of paperwork after the EU regulation change.

That's what I thought.

How can it be privatisation when both the companies involved in running the railway and it's operations are owned by the government's public bodies.

Banjoxed · 22-09-2017 10:39pm

Nomis21 wrote: »

Toilets on the dart is not the issue the Unions are striking for

discommode:

ˌdɪskəˈməʊd
verb formal
cause (someone) trouble or inconvenience.

Whatever happened to Cooked Breakfast on the Luas? That was my favourite meme in 2003.

Hilly Bill · 22-09-2017 10:50pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Come on it's so not true, union spin is what it is.

You are referring to the company split??

Nope, most of Irish Rail's workings is contracted out.

Jamie2k9 · 22-09-2017 10:55pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Nope, most of Irish Rail's workings is contracted out.

Ah right, it's normal these days and it's hard to argue against some elements of it when it can be done for so much less and the same job.

Stephen15 · 22-09-2017 11:22pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Nope, most of Irish Rail's workings is contracted out.

Its only really secondary operations that are sub-contracted such as cleaning, security and catering staff. Not really privatisation drivers, station staff, revenue protection, signalling, clerical, maintenence and control room staff are all employed by IE.

There is a difference between contracting something out and privatisation it. Telecom Eireann was privatised IE is not just because it sub contracts does not mean its privatised.

GM228 · 22-09-2017 11:30pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Its only really secondary operations that are sub-contracted such as cleaning, security and catering staff. Not really privatisation drivers, station staff, revenue protection, signalling, clerical, maintenence and control room staff are all employed by IE.

There is a difference between contracting something out and privatisation it. Telecom Eireann was privatised IE is not just because it sub contracts does not mean its privatised.

Certain heavy maintenance work is also contracted out these days, but yes even a privatized company will contract out the same stuff.

Hilly Bill · 23-09-2017 9:27am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Its only really secondary operations that are sub-contracted such as cleaning, security and catering staff. Not really privatisation drivers, station staff, revenue protection, signalling, clerical, maintenence and control room staff are all employed by IE.

There is a difference between contracting something out and privatisation it. Telecom Eireann was privatised IE is not just because it sub contracts does not mean its privatised.

Lot of the track work that was by the per way is now done by contractors, on track machines like the tampers are contractors, booking system is operated by an English company who sub contracts it to some crowd in Germany. Customer care /telesales is done by some crowd in clonakilty. Some other crowd will soon have control of the ticket machines and the booking offices.
All that will happen if there was ever a full privatisation is a different name for people to moan about.

Marty Bird · 23-09-2017 9:43am

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Lot of the track work that was by the per way is now done by contractors, on track machines like the tampers are contractors, booking system is operated by an English company who sub contracts it to some crowd in Germany. Customer care /telesales is done by some crowd in clonakilty. Some other crowd will soon have control of the ticket machines and the booking offices.
All that will happen if there was ever a full privatisation is a different name for people to moan about.

Specialist track work is contracted out like bridge renewal and it’s still under IE staff supervision, plant machinery has always been operated by contractors, the rest are the IT systems hardly privatization when the front line staff still operate them.

GM228 · 23-09-2017 11:36am

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Lot of the track work that was by the per way is now done by contractors, on track machines like the tampers are contractors

All specialist per way work is undertaken by contractors and generally always has been, it is still overseen by IE per way staff. All non specialised per way work is still in house but contracted hired in plant has always been the case.

OTMs are operated jointly by IE staff and Balfour staff, Balfour are contracted to perform out-road general maintenance and some heavy maintainance also on OTMs, the rest is in house.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

booking system is operated by an English company who sub contracts it to some crowd in Germany.

No, the booking system is operated by IE, the system was provided by Cubic Transportation Systems (a US company) with IT side of the system provided for by Sqills (a Dutch company). Cubic provide technical support to IE who still actually run the system.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Customer care /telesales is done by some crowd in clonakilty.

Yes, the company is Capita, however this is (like any contract) simply contracting out someone to handle a part of a business, that is not privatisation, IE still retain control over Capita in relation to how it handles the service.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Some other crowd will soon have control of the ticket machines and the booking offices.

Again this is like the booking system, IE manage and maintain with Cubic offering technical support where required.

devnull · 23-09-2017 11:51am

GM228 wrote: »

No, the booking system is operated by IE, the system was provided by Cubic Transportation Systems (a US company) with IT side of the system provided for by Sqills (a Dutch company). Cubic provide technical support to IE who still actually run the system.

Yes butthe journey planner part of the booking system is from HaCon who also make the app

Infini · 23-09-2017 12:43pm

Regardless of the issue over the pay rise theres another issue brewing over the pensions and thats the big one. Company has refused for the last few years to pay up its fair share and theres more money going out of the scheme than in (due to staff level reductions amongst other factors). That just cant keep going on and thats a factor too because last I heard the inability to pay excuse was used on that too.

Theres other things Ive heard myself but not 100% on but one of them is that theres accouting tricks being used to hide money and increased revenue by hiding it in the Infrastructure budget instead of the RU section. Point being made is passenger levels are back to boomtime levels but the company is "unable to pay". That doesnt make sense.

Throw in management who dont even listen to their own staff on some basic matters and seem to only ever come round to antagonise and your getting bad blood all round. Theres also the issue with the booking offices and the staff there. The company stated earlier in the year that the customer first program wouldnt result in closures and job losses but now theyre doing just that. The only ones that are going to be retained are mostly ones which have clerical staff as their T&C prevent them from just being forced out unlike the traffic staff. They feeling is theyre intentionally undermining the staffs jobs so they can make excuses to gdr rid of then. Management just dont care what feedback staff give they only care for their own agendas. This just leads to a complete loss of trust which more than half the staff in the company do not have in management.

Maybe striking isnt the best option but there seems to be few options to anything else either. It feels like the place is being run down so it can be hived off. Staff are just excess baggage to managent and theyre not interested in working with or listening to them. Its not just about pay anymore its about job security too.

McAlban · 23-09-2017 12:56pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

So DB, SNCF, FS, NS, SNCF, OBB and Renfe are all private companies.

The UK is one of the only countries if not the only to have a privatised or franchised railway and even there, there is strikes. You honly to look at the whole Southern Rail dispute to realise that private transport companies are not immune to strikes.

I work for a section of DB. It is essentially operated as a private company. The Board report to the German exchequer alright and they are expected to pay a dividend to the exchequer.

Their Train Drivers basic pay is also half of what IE's is

Jamie2k9 · 23-09-2017 1:32pm

Infini wrote: »

Regardless of the issue over the pay rise theres another issue brewing over the pensions and thats the big one. Company has refused for the last few years to pay up its fair share and theres more money going out of the scheme than in (due to staff level reductions amongst other factors). That just cant keep going on and thats a factor too because last I heard the inability to pay excuse was used on that too.

Theres other things Ive heard myself but not 100% on but one of them is that theres accouting tricks being used to hide money and increased revenue by hiding it in the Infrastructure budget instead of the RU section. Point being made is passenger levels are back to boomtime levels but the company is "unable to pay". That doesnt make sense.

The pension thing has always been a ticking time bomb.

As for accounting tricks it happens everywhere and I say fair play if IE are doing it. If they made a 10 million profit last year unions would squander the whole lot of it. Then again it's just gossip which has probally gotten legs among staff. A lot of infrastructure has largely been left hanging or patched up over the last 5-6 years so it actually could be genuine spend.

Passenger numbers are past peak levels but online fares are down and you have major revenue losses in Sallins this year with Leap and even the Leap revenue since introduced as reduced prices so naturally numbers will grow.

I don't think the pay increase is a big issue just the amount %. Unions could offer some productivity but always go into these talks knowing they will fail and IE then propose completely unreasonable demands as a result and you strike and then you talk and IE get 70-80% of what they wanted before unions walked out.

Throw in management who dont even listen to their own staff on some basic matters and seem to only ever come round to antagonise and your getting bad blood all round. Theres also the issue with the booking offices and the staff there. The company stated earlier in the year that the customer first program wouldnt result in closures and job losses but now theyre doing just that. The only ones that are going to be retained are mostly ones which have clerical staff as their T&C prevent them from just being forced out unlike the traffic staff. They feeling is theyre intentionally undermining the staffs jobs so they can make excuses to gdr rid of then. Management just dont care what feedback staff give they only care for their own agendas. This just leads to a complete loss of trust which more than half the staff in the company do not have in management.

Maybe striking isnt the best option but there seems to be few options to anything else either. It feels like the place is being run down so it can be hived off. Staff are just excess baggage to managent and theyre not interested in working with or listening to them. Its not just about pay anymore its about job security too.

I do agree there is a management problem in general but are they really forcing staff out or are those staff just refusing to operate on trains as it might actually means a days work. Plenty of station staff at quieter stations have a great life with today's set up.

______

What I want to know is why IE dropped the NBRU action or did they settle outside of court?

GM228 · 23-09-2017 1:48pm

McAlban wrote: »

I work for a section of DB. It is essentially operated as a private company. The Board report to the German exchequer alright and they are expected to pay a dividend to the exchequer.

Realistically DB is no differnt to IE, both being companies with 100% share capital held by the Government.

McAlban wrote: »

Their Train Drivers basic pay is also half of what IE's is

DB drivers are not paid a basic of half what IE drivers are paid, they are on €848.88 basic per week compared to IEs €1060 - far more than half the IE rate, however when you look at hourly rates DB drivers are on a higher basic wage.

Until 2015 DB drivers were on €42,000 basic for 39 hour contracts, following the 2015 strikes they got a basic of €44,142 for 39 hours (to reduce to 38 hour contracts early next year with the same annual pay), IE drivers have 48 hour contracts - represents a €0.30c per hour higher pay rate for DB drivers than IE drivers.

IE drivers = €22.13 per hour.
DB drivers = €22.33 per hour.

Plenty about it when you Google, here's a few results:-

http://m.dw.com/en/german-train-drivers-earn-less-than-youd-think/a-18467783

http://m.dw.com/en/german-train-drivers-end-historic-strike/a-18441882

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/german-rail-operator-train-drivers-end-wage-dispute-000900244.html

devnull · 23-09-2017 1:49pm

Infini wrote: »

Throw in management who dont even listen to their own staff on some basic matters and seem to only ever come round to antagonise and your getting bad blood all round. Theres also the issue with the booking offices and the staff there. The company stated earlier in the year that the customer first program wouldnt result in closures and job losses but now theyre doing just that. The only ones that are going to be retained are mostly ones which have clerical staff as their T&C prevent them from just being forced out unlike the traffic staff. They feeling is theyre intentionally undermining the staffs jobs so they can make excuses to gdr rid of then. Management just dont care what feedback staff give they only care for their own agendas. This just leads to a complete loss of trust which more than half the staff in the company do not have in management.

Maybe striking isnt the best option but there seems to be few options to anything else either. It feels like the place is being run down so it can be hived off. Staff are just excess baggage to managent and theyre not interested in working with or listening to them. Its not just about pay anymore its about job security too.

I want station staff to say but only on the condition that they do a lot more than they are at the moment, if they don't want to perform duties other than selling tickets then I can see the management of Irish Rail's point that they can be dispensable because of the fact that ticket machines can do that. If Irish Rail staff want to have job security there should be less of a "it's not my job" attitude and maybe there would be more reason to keep them there.

My local station staff member constantly kept saying his job was to sell tickets, not give customer service advice, travel advice, make announcements, stop fare dodgers or to provide updates to passengers or help people with difficulties to the train. If staff want job security than they need to make themselves work so hard and do so much that the people would be up in arms if they left and had a backlash against Irish Rail but the staff as they are now can be considered excess baggage, so if I was them I'd try and make sure that I was seen as an asset rather than a liability by going the extra mile for their customers, it doesn't happen though.

If you go to some of the smaller stations in the UK and in other European countries a lot of small stations are one man bands, one person checks tickets, provides updates, travel advice, makes announcements, offers customer service, assist people with their luggage if required, proactively helps people on the platform. In Irish Rail someone sits behind a desk near the gates which are often left open even when staffed, twiddles his thumbs on his phone saying anything apart from selling tickets is not his job.

The staff need to become customer ambassadors and customer service staff rather than dedicated ticket sellers if they are to survive.

Unions warn of train strike as staff demand pay increase

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