Sinn Fein leadership

tomwaterford · 18-09-2017 9:53pm

kbannon wrote: »

Did you really intend posting that?
Surely staying away from murder is a good thing? It is for normal people!

As for the insinuation that those who left SF are of "questionable moral quality", what grounds do you have for that accusation?

I've never questioned the moral quality of those who've left sinn fein

I've said that many of those who've joined recently wouldn't have the commitment to stock with it in the face of hassle from special branch etc (know someone who took over 3 hours to get from Cork city to Kilmichael for a commeration in the 80s)

(I do subscribe to the view that SF and provos are different organisations)

Jawgap · 18-09-2017 9:58pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Some people can't handle the cut and thrust of party politics. Every party has this kind of turnover of people.

Not every party has a hostile media waiting to sensationalise the ordinary and a gullible section of the public waiting to be outraged by it...momentarily...again and again.

Just wondering which other party - currently or ever - faced into a potential lawsuit involving up to 40 of its members all of whom were alleging bullying?

Legal threat over Sinn Féin bullying allegations

A phrase from a different era, coined in relation to a qualitatively set of events springs to mind......

G
U
B
U

FrancieBrady · 18-09-2017 10:03pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Just wondering which other party - currently or ever - faced into a potential lawsuit involving up to 40 of its members all of whom were alleging bullying?

Legal threat over Sinn Féin bullying allegations

A phrase from a different era, coined in relation to a qualitatively set of events springs to mind......

G
U
B
U

Article is behind a paywall. But it starts classically enough for this type of speculation..'SF could be facing....'

How many times have we heard it all before?

Jawgap · 18-09-2017 10:24pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Article is behind a paywall. But it starts classically enough for this type of speculation..'SF could be facing....'

How many times have we heard it all before?

Points I acknowledged in my post......so if every party (per your post) faces something similar maybe you'd care to provide an example of another party that faced such a potential action from a similar number of members?

Is there one?

FrancieBrady · 18-09-2017 10:39pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Points I acknowledged in my post......so if every party (per your post) faces something similar maybe you'd care to provide an example of another party that faced such a potential action from a similar number of members?

Is there one?

Now we get to the familiar point were you misquote me.

Does the article also contain 'sources said'?

Trying to find another newspaper reporting on this could be/might be case but have failed so far.

Jawgap · 18-09-2017 10:49pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Now we get to the familiar point were you misquote me.

Does the article also contain 'sources said'?

Trying to find another newspaper reporting on this could be/might be case but have failed so far.

I'll take that as a "no" then.......as in no other example of a political party or it's leadership facing a comparable potential law suit.

Incidentally, just checking but is it really your position that the media has conspired with, or duped, such a large group of SF members, including a significant number of elected reps, in respect of these extensive bullying allegations?

blanch152 · 18-09-2017 10:49pm

tomwaterford wrote: »

Sinn fein is expanding too quickly and has taken on too many members of questionable moral quality who would have run a mile from republicanism in the troubles

Any place where there's rapid expansion will see forming of new cliques etc,and sinn fein could do worse than taking on a internal disputes offialtor to oversee these type disputes as it serves noone to see people walking and complaining of bullying

It's an in house problem and needs to be sorted inhouse

This type of attitude is symptomatic of a bullying culture that refuses to accept newcomers. Classic case it seems.

tomwaterford · 18-09-2017 10:59pm

blanch152 wrote: »

This type of attitude is symptomatic of a bullying culture that refuses to accept newcomers. Classic case it seems.

How so??

By questioning people whove not proven their commitment is bullying??

,perhaps you have a much broader definition than me of bullying

FrancieBrady · 18-09-2017 11:00pm

Jawgap wrote: »

I'll take that as a "no" then.......as in no other example of a political party or it's leadership facing a comparable potential law suit.

Incidentally, just checking but is it really your position that the media has conspired with, or duped, such a large group of SF members, including a significant number of elected reps, in respect of these extensive bullying allegations?

Somebody writes what looks like a one off article about a could be case and that is of some significance???

You are right, no other party has to put up with sustained insinuation and unbacked up bile.

Read the original article, it details what a lot of these incidents are about, 'disputes'.

The extensive bullying is the newspapers sensationalising of it.

I have been to Ard Fheis and it is not a party for the faint hearted. Opinions are diverse and passionate.
You should go. You would realise how ridiculous the notion that some sinister underground figures are dictating what people say and think.

I am still chuckling at the idea of Mary Lou being a puppet. Blanch wouldn't answer, do you think she is?

blanch152 · 18-09-2017 11:24pm

tomwaterford wrote: »

How so??

By questioning people whove not proven their commitment is bullying??

,perhaps you have a much broader definition than me of bullying

Exactly, a bit like "show me your medals" in a dressing-room is a form of bullying.

It seems there is a lot of awareness raising required.

blanch152 · 18-09-2017 11:27pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Somebody writes what looks like a one off article about a could be case and that is of some significance???

You are right, no other party has to put up with sustained insinuation and unbacked up bile.

Read the original article, it details what a lot of these incidents are about, 'disputes'.

The extensive bullying is the newspapers sensationalising of it.

I have been to Ard Fheis and it is not a party for the faint hearted. Opinions are diverse and passionate.
You should go. You would realise how ridiculous the notion that some sinister underground figures are dictating what people say and think.

I am still chuckling at the idea of Mary Lou being a puppet. Blanch wouldn't answer, do you think she is?

Clearly not a party for the faint hearted.

All the last few pages have told me is that Sinn Fein is not a party of tolerance and is a place with a worrisome bullying culture.

FrancieBrady · 18-09-2017 11:30pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Clearly not a party for the faint hearted.

All the last few pages have told me is that Sinn Fein is not a party of tolerance and is a place with a worrisome bullying culture.

You should contact that human rights activist with your evidence so.

FrancieBrady · 18-09-2017 11:32pm

Who is the 'human rights activist' by the way Jawgap? Maybe I can find somebody else reporting on this could be case if I have the name.

tomwaterford · 18-09-2017 11:37pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Exactly, a bit like "show me your medals" in a dressing-room is a form of bullying.

It seems there is a lot of awareness raising required.

Jesus lads being asked to prove themselves and there commitment is part and parcel of any part of life and is now considered bullying??

Who wants flakey people about??

So anyone who raises relevant questions about people's past actions/in actions Is bullying??

What about people ripping piss outta ya for fcuk ups etc at work

Jesus lad,you wouldn't last a week in any place I've worked

Jawgap · 18-09-2017 11:49pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who is the 'human rights activist' by the way Jawgap? Maybe I can find somebody else reporting on this could be case if I have the name.

It's in the article and it's - interestingly - someone who is described as having "..... been a longtime Sinn Féin supporter."

If you want her name, subscribe to the publication.

FrancieBrady · 18-09-2017 11:51pm

Jawgap wrote: »

It's in the article and it's - interestingly - someone who is described as having "..... been a longtime Sinn Féin supporter."

If you want her name, subscribe to the publication.

Oh dear. You won't simply name the person now. I smell a familiar rat here.

Anyone else know?

Jawgap · 18-09-2017 11:58pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Oh dear. You won't simply name the person now. I smell a familiar rat here.

Anyone else know?

.....because it's easy to see how it will play out......I get you beyond the pay wall.....you get a name......then take some aspect of her life/writing and magnify it to suggest she lacks credibility or her motives are somewhat base.

I get it. It's the SF way. I just choose not to be a party to it.

FrancieBrady · 19-09-2017 12:03am

Jawgap wrote: »

.....because it's easy to see how it will play out......I get you beyond the pay wall.....you get a name......then take some aspect of her life/writing and magnify it to suggest she lacks credibility or her motives are somewhat base.

I get it. It's the SF way. I just choose not to be a party to it.

So you are aware of something a bit off here. I can read between lines like anyone. Thanks for that.

If anyone could link to this story I would like a read without subscribing. Thanks in advance.

johnnyskeleton · 19-09-2017 12:06am

Jawgap wrote: »

.....because it's easy to see how it will play out......I get you beyond the pay wall.....you get a name......then take some aspect of her life/writing and magnify it to suggest she lacks credibility or her motives are somewhat base.

I get it. It's the SF way. I just choose not to be a party to it.

Mod note:

Please read the charter before posting again. If you are deliberately trying to wind another poster up, that is trolling and can result in a ban.

FrancieBrady · 19-09-2017 7:13am

Finally found something on this 'story' in suprise suprise the Indo. Has all the key emotive words, 'sources' 'kangaroo courts' 'suicide' 'death threats' etc. But is light on any hard evidence of a 'culture'
The SF reps are now 'affable and bright young things' though which is a plus for the party I suppose

. People in 'fear of retribution' are happy to be photographed and have their names printed etc.
Even 'advice' given to members, a reference to 'political enemies' is coated in the Indo's sinister innuendo gloss paint.

No sign either of any of these people making complaints to authorities that can do something about it, like the Gardai.
If you received a death threat who would you go to first - the Gardai or the Indo?

Classic Indo - heavy on the insinuations, light on any hard evidence or real investigative journalism.

http://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20170909/281818578987157

blanch152 · 19-09-2017 2:56pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Finally found something on this 'story' in suprise suprise the Indo. Has all the key emotive words, 'sources' 'kangaroo courts' 'suicide' 'death threats' etc. But is light on any hard evidence of a 'culture'
The SF reps are now 'affable and bright young things' though which is a plus for the party I suppose . People in 'fear of retribution' are happy to be photographed and have their names printed etc.
Even 'advice' given to members, a reference to 'political enemies' is coated in the Indo's sinister innuendo gloss paint.

No sign either of any of these people making complaints to authorities that can do something about it, like the Gardai.
If you received a death threat who would you go to first - the Gardai or the Indo?

Classic Indo - heavy on the insinuations, light on any hard evidence or real investigative journalism.

http://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20170909/281818578987157

Normally in a story like that - which is a horrifying account of an organisation with an embedded bullying culture - you would go to the HSA. You see, bullying isn't necessarily a crime, unless it can be judged an assault.

Here is a good article from the Guardian which addresses the general issue quite well:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/17/workplace-bullying-cost-uk-acas

"The culture of an organisation is its operating software. If bullies are in charge and promoting like-minded people, don’t be surprised if the employee’s lot is not a happy one."

I referenced the HSA guidlines previously, and this article advocates a similar approach to eradicating bullying.

https://www.crisisprevention.com/Blog/May-2013/4-Quick-Tips-for-Managing-Workplace-Bullying

It also defines bullying as "behavior that involves persistent and ongoing acts of incivility directed toward an individual or group." There was another poster on here who said "who wants flakey people about?". That is exactly the type of comment which matches that definition of bullying.

What is amazing about this is the contrast between the public face of SF where they proclaim themselves to be an inclusive party and the private side we see revealed in these accounts where there is a controlling bullying influence stifling real discussion and debate. The "affable and bright young things" won't stay around in this culture.

FrancieBrady · 19-09-2017 3:37pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Normally in a story like that - which is a horrifying account of an organisation with an embedded bullying culture - you would go to the HSA. You see, bullying isn't necessarily a crime, unless it can be judged an assault.

Here is a good article from the Guardian which addresses the general issue quite well:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/17/workplace-bullying-cost-uk-acas

"The culture of an organisation is its operating software. If bullies are in charge and promoting like-minded people, don’t be surprised if the employee’s lot is not a happy one."

I referenced the HSA guidlines previously, and this article advocates a similar approach to eradicating bullying.

https://www.crisisprevention.com/Blog/May-2013/4-Quick-Tips-for-Managing-Workplace-Bullying

It also defines bullying as "behavior that involves persistent and ongoing acts of incivility directed toward an individual or group." There was another poster on here who said "who wants flakey people about?". That is exactly the type of comment which matches that definition of bullying.

What is amazing about this is the contrast between the public face of SF where they proclaim themselves to be an inclusive party and the private side we see revealed in these accounts where there is a controlling bullying influence stifling real discussion and debate. The "affable and bright young things" won't stay around in this culture.

In this article can you deduce how many 'complainants' have gone to an agency that can actually do something about what they claim happened and have not gone straight to the media? The branch of the media that just loves negative stories about this party?

The fact that they went to the media first, like so many others, makes me reach for the Saxa tub frankly.

I would also wonder do they understand party whips.
They are the reason Francis would never be a member of a party as I would not, (like Lucinda Creighton for instance, ) to be bullied into towing the party line.
As happens all the time.

blanch152 · 19-09-2017 4:06pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In this article can you deduce how many 'complainants' have gone to an agency that can actually do something about what they claim happened and have not gone straight to the media? The branch of the media that just loves negative stories about this party?

The fact that they went to the media first, like so many others, makes me reach for the Saxa tub frankly.

I would also wonder do they understand party whips.
They are the reason Francis would never be a member of a party as I would not, (like Lucinda Creighton for instance, ) to be bullied into towing the party line.
As happens all the time.

Apologies, I should have explained myself better.

I said that normally you would go to the HSA in such cases. Unfortunately, I don't think the HSA has jurisdiction in this case. I stand open to being corrected, but I think that the HSA can only deal with bullying in the workplace. In this case, a voluntary organisation, it falls outside the definition of workplace, even though given the particularly unique way that Sinn Fein controls its public representatives through financial methods, there might be some debate over that. Nevertheless, I would think that the HSA would be very reluctant to get involved as it wouldn't meet the standard definition of workplace.

So without the HSA, where do the victims go?

Use the internal dispute mechanisms of Sinn Fein? Well, they didn't work out too well for Mairia Cahill or Paudie McGahaon. It also seems bizarre that in twenty cases that have allegedly been investigated, not once has a bullying complaint been upheld. There is probably a better chance of winning the lottery.

Whistleblow to a TD? Sort of thing SF encourage gardai in similar cases to do. Can't really. Going to FG or FF would be seen by SF colleagues as being equivalent to a supergrass. You wouldn't want to go there. Wallace and Daly are always looking to get one over on FG and FF wrongdoing, doubt they'd be interested in SF internal problems.

Go to the media? Looks like it is your only option if you are suffering bullying within Sinn Fein.

One of the classic signs of a pervasive bullying culture is a defensive mechanism to accusations where you go after the messenger (who wants flakey people or a party for the fainthearted?) or go after the medium (Classic Indo), rather than address the substantive issues raised.

tomwaterford · 19-09-2017 4:19pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Apologies, I should have explained myself better.

I said that normally you would go to the HSA in such cases. Unfortunately, I don't think the HSA has jurisdiction in this case. I stand open to being corrected, but I think that the HSA can only deal with bullying in the workplace. In this case, a voluntary organisation, it falls outside the definition of workplace, even though given the particularly unique way that Sinn Fein controls its public representatives through financial methods, there might be some debate over that. Nevertheless, I would think that the HSA would be very reluctant to get involved as it wouldn't meet the standard definition of workplace.

So without the HSA, where do the victims go?

Use the internal dispute mechanisms of Sinn Fein? Well, they didn't work out too well for Mairia Cahill or Paudie McGahaon. It also seems bizarre that in twenty cases that have allegedly been investigated, not once has a bullying complaint been upheld. There is probably a better chance of winning the lottery.

Whistleblow to a TD? Sort of thing SF encourage gardai in similar cases to do. Can't really. Going to FG or FF would be seen by SF colleagues as being equivalent to a supergrass. You wouldn't want to go there. Wallace and Daly are always looking to get one over on FG and FF wrongdoing, doubt they'd be interested in SF internal problems.

Go to the media? Looks like it is your only option if you are suffering bullying within Sinn Fein.

One of the classic signs of a pervasive bullying culture is a defensive mechanism to accusations where you go after the messenger (who wants flakey people or a party for the fainthearted?) or go after the medium (Classic Indo), rather than address the substantive issues raised.

It would be interesting to see what these bullying accusations consist of

It wouldn't be the case of where 1 in particular come into a local membership,hoisted in by dublin and tried to rule the roost and dictate the goings on....

and cried bullying then when people laughed at them and told them they wouldn't partake in pointless protests and flood into leadership roles in community protest groups against controversial issues in a very similar thing the old workers party used to try muscle into everything?

Preferring to take a participation role as it's a non party political thing and local issue?

FrancieBrady · 19-09-2017 6:54pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Apologies, I should have explained myself better.

I said that normally you would go to the HSA in such cases. Unfortunately, I don't think the HSA has jurisdiction in this case. I stand open to being corrected, but I think that the HSA can only deal with bullying in the workplace. In this case, a voluntary organisation, it falls outside the definition of workplace, even though given the particularly unique way that Sinn Fein controls its public representatives through financial methods, there might be some debate over that. Nevertheless, I would think that the HSA would be very reluctant to get involved as it wouldn't meet the standard definition of workplace.

So without the HSA, where do the victims go?

Use the internal dispute mechanisms of Sinn Fein? Well, they didn't work out too well for Mairia Cahill or Paudie McGahaon. It also seems bizarre that in twenty cases that have allegedly been investigated, not once has a bullying complaint been upheld. There is probably a better chance of winning the lottery.

Whistleblow to a TD? Sort of thing SF encourage gardai in similar cases to do. Can't really. Going to FG or FF would be seen by SF colleagues as being equivalent to a supergrass. You wouldn't want to go there. Wallace and Daly are always looking to get one over on FG and FF wrongdoing, doubt they'd be interested in SF internal problems.

Go to the media? Looks like it is your only option if you are suffering bullying within Sinn Fein.

One of the classic signs of a pervasive bullying culture is a defensive mechanism to accusations where you go after the messenger (who wants flakey people or a party for the fainthearted?) or go after the medium (Classic Indo), rather than address the substantive issues raised.

So, all these people have done to advance their cases is to go to the media, is all that we know. With no evidence of any kind (where have we seen that before in relation to this party)
And here we see a poster throw out all the cliches and tropes about this party, cliches and tropes largely perpetuated by the quoted organ of the media, the Indo.

All I can see is a few people (young) who probably haven't quite grasped what the whip system is. And a few disputes.
I still have to be shown any evidence of a 'bullying culture'.

FrancieBrady · 19-09-2017 8:23pm

Mairtin O Muilleoir, the finance minister in the Executive would possibly be a strong candidate.
Saw him on UTV last night, very strong, respectful and intelligent on the topics he discussed.
Reminded me of McGuinness.

blanch152 · 19-09-2017 10:24pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So, all these people have done to advance their cases is to go to the media, is all that we know. With no evidence of any kind (where have we seen that before in relation to this party)
And here we see a poster throw out all the cliches and tropes about this party, cliches and tropes largely perpetuated by the quoted organ of the media, the Indo.

All I can see is a few people (young) who probably haven't quite grasped what the whip system is. And a few disputes.
I still have to be shown any evidence of a 'bullying culture'.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fin-expels-three-members-from-party-following-wicklow-council-dispute-36148276.html

More upset in Sinn Fein.

Not clear whether it was the bullied or the bullies who were expelled, or whether the bullying had anything to do with the expulsions. The usual justice behind closed doors.

FrancieBrady · 19-09-2017 10:49pm

blanch152 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fin-expels-three-members-from-party-following-wicklow-council-dispute-36148276.html

More upset in Sinn Fein.

Not clear whether it was the bullied or the bullies who were expelled, or whether the bullying had anything to do with the expulsions. The usual justice behind closed doors.

Hilarious stuff there blanch.

Am I the only one who was able to understand exactly what that dispute was about? From the SF statement quoted.

Yet it is a platform for you to invoke cliches.

Have you anything to offer on the topic of the thread or is it going to turn into another vehicle for your crusade?

blanch152 · 19-09-2017 11:33pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Hilarious stuff there blanch.

Am I the only one who was able to understand exactly what that dispute was about? From the SF statement quoted.

Yet it is a platform for you to invoke cliches.

Have you anything to offer on the topic of the thread or is it going to turn into another vehicle for your crusade?

Not turning up to a few meetings is an excuse to expel three councillors? Seriously?

The topic of this thread is the leadership of Sinn Fein. If they are losing councillors right, left and centre, it raises a lot of issues about the leadership. As does a pervasive bullying culture.

tomwaterford · 19-09-2017 11:36pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Not turning up to a few meetings is an excuse to expel three councillors? Seriously?

The topic of this thread is the leadership of Sinn Fein. If they are losing councillors right, left and centre, it raises a lot of issues about the leadership. As does a pervasive bullying culture.

Do you not think councillors should turn up to meetings,If there meant too??

Any other job you'd be sacked for it?

Why should politoans always get an easy pass?

Quite how you've managed to convince yourself this amounts to bullying is?

Sinn Fein leadership

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