Sinn Fein leadership

Brendan Bendar

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I wonder too how the Northern younger SF members view the Southern younger SF members - potentially the fact that the Southern party is developing a base around things like water charges and LPT will conflict with the Northern younger people for whom powersharing / ultimate reunification is far more important

That's a good point Johnny,however, and there's always a 'however' I would suggest that SF in the ROI would do better if they got away from the 'protest' angle and the 'agin everything' and 'tax the rich' aspect of how they are perceived.

The perception out there is that they would bankrupt the country if given access to the levers of power.

So as well as dumping (gently) the old guard they, in my opinion,would need to modify their policies a bit to appeal to the middle ground in any serious way.

That said a shake up of sorts mightened be worse thing ?

Colonel Claptrap

Thomas__ wrote: »

Imagine someone from the Republic will take over the Presidency of SF, someone who has no connection whatsoever to NI and for whom a UI is more a matter of political agenda but who then has to face the problems in NI him- / herself when taking on leadership for the whole party. Adams knows the people in NI and he knows those in the Republic, any other person without that background would have much lessons to learn. Whether this person would be acceptable in NI is quite another matter.

Excellent point.

There's a certain irony that they are incapable of fostering a 'United Ireland SF party' under a single governance structure.

jm08

Thomas__ wrote: »

Good point. In my view, they are both worlds apart cos of the different priorities SF sets in NI and in the Republic to appeal to voters and to gain members. And so are the reasons for why people vote for or join SF. Imagine someone from the Republic will take over the Presidency of SF, someone who has no connection whatsoever to NI and for whom a UI is more a matter of political agenda but who then has to face the problems in NI him- / herself when taking on leadership for the whole party. Adams knows the people in NI and he knows those in the Republic, any other person without that background would have much lessons to learn. Whether this person would be acceptable in NI is quite another matter.

Sinn Fein is the only party that gives such prominence to the President (and the President is so prominent). I'd imagine Mary Lou will lead the south and Michelle lead the north and both will be answerable to the Ard comhairle. Since neither have had any direct involvement in the Troubles, it will be interesting to see how the DUP /hardline unionists handle not having Adams or Marty to demonise.

Count Marcula

Sinn Fein appeal to a group of people who see membership of the party as a greenlight to do what they want. Johnathan Dowdall is a good example of one.

When youve been in the party long enough you discover that all their members are like Johnathan Dowdall. The party is on par with no other. They are effectively a mafia organization for weeklings.

TheRiverman

Count Marcula wrote: »

Sinn Fein appeal to a group of people who see membership of the party as a greenlight to do what they want. Johnathan Dowdall is a good example of one.

When youve been in the party long enough you discover that all their members are like Johnathan Dowdall. The party is on par with no other. They are effectively a mafia organization for weeklings.

Should that be "weaklings" ?

FrancieBrady

Count Marcula wrote: »

When youve been in the party long enough you discover that all their members are like Johnathan Dowdall.

How long were you a member? Who else is loon enough to be waterboarding car buyers?

Count Marcula

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Count Marcula wrote: »

When youve been in the party long enough you discover that all their members are like Johnathan Dowdall.

How long were you a member? Who else is loon enough to be waterboarding car buyers?

A couple of years. I know. A COUNCILOR!!!

FrancieBrady

Count Marcula wrote: »

A couple of years. I know. A COUNCILOR!!!

So 'who' else (you claim they 'are all') is 'like' Jonathan Dowdall and water boards people who call trying to buy a car?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So 'who' else (you claim they 'are all') is 'like' Jonathan Dowdall and water boards people who call trying to buy a car?

"like" does not mean "exact replica".

If you are to class Jonathon Dowdall as a violent criminal, well yes, there are a number of SF public representatives who have been convicted of terrorist crimes and who have served time, not to mention some of the shady backroom boys.

Count Marcula

What about judge gerry and the recent miscarriage of justice he was involved in? I hear he likes to hang his own party members out to dry. He doesnt make much of a hullabaloo when he gets it wrong.

Thomas__

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

Imagine someone from the Republic will take over the Presidency of SF, someone who has no connection whatsoever to NI and for whom a UI is more a matter of political agenda but who then has to face the problems in NI him- / herself when taking on leadership for the whole party. Adams knows the people in NI and he knows those in the Republic, any other person without that background would have much lessons to learn. Whether this person would be acceptable in NI is quite another matter.

Excellent point.

There's a certain irony that they are incapable of fostering a 'United Ireland SF party' under a single governance structure.

No doubt, nearly 100 years of partition have left its mark and this is often to observe by the way SF appears in both parts of the Island. I am certain that even in a UI the differences will continue for at least one of two generations after re-unification. The least time period that I would set for this is 25 to 30 years. In some discussions regarding a UI, the matter of whether a UI would be constituted with regional federalism (that´s to make it a bit more attractive for the Unionists in NI to accept a UI, given that the present UK doesn´t exist anymore) is still unsolved and there are more arguments against that than for it.

There was a time, a rather short one, when other parties from the Republic were considering to organise branches of them in NI too. When I recall that right it was FG who had some thoughts on that. Not sure what the FFers point was on this idea. They dropped the idea cos they thought that they wouldn´t stand a Chance to gain anything up there. So, there are just two parties who are cross border organised. SF and the Irish Green Party, by which no-one talks about the latter in regards of NI.

This partition aspect is the core of the way SF is acting, working on their policies and the set up of their appearance and for some people who are not that familiar with this "Janu-headed" profile of SF, it is sometimes confusing. Nevertheless it is the way of success for SF and more so in NI than in the Republic of Ireland, but they have witnessed an increase of support in the Republic in recent years and elections.

When one looks at the success and development of SF in both parts of the Island, and when one takes into account on which expenses this was gained and afterwards established in a way to consolidate their place in politics, it is striking but no wonder that traditional labour parties - the SDLP in NI and Labour in the Republic - lost votes and probably members as well to SF. Every leader of SF has to keep that going and handle the "Janus-headed" way of presenting the party to keep the voters. I doubt that this will be workable in case the leadership is spit into two leaders one for NI and the other for the Republic, as another poster suggested. Maybe this is one of the reasons for why Gerry Adams is more reluctantly preparing for his stepping down from leadership.

On the other hand, parties in the Republic are very reluctant to even considering to go into coalition with SF to form an Irish govt because of him and the parties policies which are for the political spectrum in regards of the voters a tad too much left-wing. This doesn´t matter much in NI cos up there, the Nationalist aspect has a stronger point than the usual left-wing policies.  

What one can see by the example of the form "Adams-McGuinness-Tandem" is that they´ve been that "good" in their leadership that they either missed or prevented (probably it was both) to build up successors for themselves who can be as much appealing and convincing to the traditional SF voters and more important, to win new ones from the wide spectrum of the voters in the Republic.

Now with McGuinness gone and Adams to step down in the near future, SF will face her biggest challenge in decades to sustain what the former two have built. It also bears the chance that other parties on the centre-left or left-wing spectrum will gain from that. It might lead to interesting times in the future and who knows, maybe this might bring more voters to the 2015 established Social Democrats in the Republic cos obviously, after the last GE in the Republic, Labour is nearly finished. Maybe SF will have to re-define herself but that remains an open question and depends on who will be the one taking over from Adams. It certainly will be a problem cos that´s the price to be paid when a party has one or two leaders for decades and the perception of the party goes by identifying the party with the leaders as one and the same. I didn´t even mention the IRA past of those leader(s) and the party´s connection with them which is another much controversial debated issue.

johnnyskeleton

Count Marcula wrote: »

What about judge gerry and the recent miscarriage of justice he was involved in? I hear he likes to hang his own party members out to dry. He doesnt make much of a hullabaloo when he gets it wrong.

Mod note:

Please see the mod warning above. Back on topic please.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

"like" does not mean "exact replica".

If you are to class Jonathon Dowdall as a violent criminal, well yes, there are a number of SF public representatives who have been convicted of terrorist crimes and who have served time, not to mention some of the shady backroom boys.

Like your own spurious claims earlier, the statement that 'they are all like Jonathon Dowdal' cannot be even remotely backed up.

And, staating that people who were involved in a 40 year conflict/war have committed violent acts in their pasts, isn't much of a shocker.

Thomas__

FrancieBrady wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

"like" does not mean "exact replica".

If you are to class Jonathon Dowdall as a violent criminal, well yes, there are a number of SF public representatives who have been convicted of terrorist crimes and who have served time, not to mention some of the shady backroom boys.

Like your own spurious claims earlier, the statement that 'they are all like Jonathon Dowdal' cannot be even remotely backed up.

And, staating that people who were involved in a 40 year conflict/war have committed violent acts in their pasts, isn't much of a shocker.

Well, to those accustomed to it it isn´t. But this won´t be a "shocker" either in regards to what you said:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/posttroubles-sinn-fin-td-backs-gerry-adams-on-tom-oliver-murder-36108502.html

One of Sinn Féin's leading TDs of the "post-Troubles generation" has backed Gerry Adams's insistence that IRA killers must not be tried and jailed for past murders.

That means that the killers should get away with their murders. Where´s this man´s sense for justice anyway and what kind of an attitude does he have when making such statements? The man is imo a real hypcrite and when one believes in justice, those who committed murder have to be brought to justice and sentenced for that otherwise there is no justice at all. I don´t have to remember you on the numbers of the many innocent people who fell for the murders carried out by the PIRA and also those by the UVF, UDA, UFF etc..

You see, the past is always getting back on SF and some of their representatives, like in this article a SF TD are doing their very best to bring it up again. That´s the essential problem of SF, they can´t come clean with their past involvement and support for the Provos from which they got their "political mandate" to speak and negotiate on the PIRA´s behalf with the Brits to achieve peace in NI.

In my view there is no question, a murderer has to go punished for what he did and no political stance can justify that at all. Many points in critics of SF do have their substance and they are proved by statements such like that of this SF TD. To withhold the perpetrators from justice is as much worse like the "white-washing" done by Lord Widgery in the aftermath of Bloody Sunday 1972 in Derry. There is either justice for all or there is none of it. This SF TD supports a stance from which one has to conclude that he likes to let the murderers get away with it. That´s double standards.

Red_Wake

I've noticed Pearse Doherty doesn't seem to get as much airtime as he used to, while Mary-Lou is always by Gerry's side - a sign that Mary-Lou has been anointed?

jm08

Thomas__ wrote: »

Well, to those accustomed to it it isn´t. But this won´t be a "shocker" either in regards to what you said:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/posttroubles-sinn-fin-td-backs-gerry-adams-on-tom-oliver-murder-36108502.html

That means that the killers should get away with their murders. Where´s this man´s sense for justice anyway and what kind of an attitude does he have when making such statements? The man is imo a real hypcrite and when one believes in justice, those who committed murder have to be brought to justice and sentenced for that otherwise there is no justice at all. I don´t have to remember you on the numbers of the many innocent people who fell for the murders carried out by the PIRA and also those by the UVF, UDA, UFF etc..

You see, the past is always getting back on SF and some of their representatives, like in this article a SF TD are doing their very best to bring it up again. That´s the essential problem of SF, they can´t come clean with their past involvement and support for the Provos from which they got their "political mandate" to speak and negotiate on the PIRA´s behalf with the Brits to achieve peace in NI.

In my view there is no question, a murderer has to go punished for what he did and no political stance can justify that at all. Many points in critics of SF do have their substance and they are proved by statements such like that of this SF TD. To withhold the perpetrators from justice is as much worse like the "white-washing" done by Lord Widgery in the aftermath of Bloody Sunday 1972 in Derry. There is either justice for all or there is none of it. This SF TD supports a stance from which one has to conclude that he likes to let the murderers get away with it. That´s double standards.

Lots of double standards when it comes to a dirty war. For instance British Army actions are not condemned by British Gov./Unionists - in fact Unionists want Stormont legislation so that ex-veterans get priority over other NI citizens when it comes to social services, health, housing etc. If that isn't rubbing nationalists nose in it, nothing is. Then you have the British Governments refusal to hand over information with regard to Dublin Monaghan bombing (34 people killed and never investigated let alone anyone punished for it).

Just for the record, I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter, have never voted for them and I can't stand Gerry Adams, although I admired Martin McGuinness for his peace work but it was not all one way traffic from the Provos during the troubles and as far as I know it is the unionists who won't sign up to a truth and reconciliation process, not Sinn Fein.

Thomas__

jm08 wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

Well, to those accustomed to it it isn´t. But this won´t be a "shocker" either in regards to what you said:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/posttroubles-sinn-fin-td-backs-gerry-adams-on-tom-oliver-murder-36108502.html

That means that the killers should get away with their murders. Where´s this man´s sense for justice anyway and what kind of an attitude does he have when making such statements? The man is imo a real hypcrite and when one believes in justice, those who committed murder have to be brought to justice and sentenced for that otherwise there is no justice at all. I don´t have to remember you on the numbers of the many innocent people who fell for the murders carried out by the PIRA and also those by the UVF, UDA, UFF etc..

You see, the past is always getting back on SF and some of their representatives, like in this article a SF TD are doing their very best to bring it up again. That´s the essential problem of SF, they can´t come clean with their past involvement and support for the Provos from which they got their "political mandate" to speak and negotiate on the PIRA´s behalf with the Brits to achieve peace in NI.

In my view there is no question, a murderer has to go punished for what he did and no political stance can justify that at all. Many points in critics of SF do have their substance and they are proved by statements such like that of this SF TD. To withhold the perpetrators from justice is as much worse like the "white-washing" done by Lord Widgery in the aftermath of Bloody Sunday 1972 in Derry. There is either justice for all or there is none of it. This SF TD supports a stance from which one has to conclude that he likes to let the murderers get away with it. That´s double standards.

Lots of double standards when it comes to a dirty war. For instance British Army actions are not condemned by British Gov./Unionists - in fact Unionists want Stormont legislation so that ex-veterans get priority over other NI citizens when it comes to social services, health, housing etc. If that isn't rubbing nationalists nose in it, nothing is. Then you have the British Governments refusal to hand over information with regard to Dublin Monaghan bombing (34 people killed and never investigated let alone anyone punished for it).

Just for the record, I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter, have never voted for them and I can't stand Gerry Adams, although I admired Martin McGuinness for his peace work but it was not all one way traffic from the Provos during the troubles and as far as I know it is the unionists who won't sign up to a truth and reconciliation process, not Sinn Fein.

Yes, that´s all fair enough what you said. As I said, either there is justice for all or there is none real one and I include those you´ve mentioned in your post.

FrancieBrady

Red_Wake wrote: »

I've noticed Pearse Doherty doesn't seem to get as much airtime as he used to, while Mary-Lou is always by Gerry's side - a sign that Mary-Lou has been anointed?

Pearse ruled himself out ages ago afaik.

Red_Wake

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

I've noticed Pearse Doherty doesn't seem to get as much airtime as he used to, while Mary-Lou is always by Gerry's side - a sign that Mary-Lou has been anointed?

Pearse ruled himself out ages ago afaik.

Did he give a reason?

Him and Mary-Lou were considered the front runners, and personally I'd have tipped him for it over Mary-Lou.

FrancieBrady

Red_Wake wrote: »

Did he give a reason?

Him and Mary-Lou were considered the front runners, and personally I'd have tipped him for it over Mary-Lou.

Not that I remember.

maccored

Count Marcula wrote: »

Sinn Fein appeal to a group of people who see membership of the party as a greenlight to do what they want. Johnathan Dowdall is a good example of one.

When youve been in the party long enough you discover that all their members are like Johnathan Dowdall. The party is on par with no other. They are effectively a mafia organization for weeklings.

and this prize piece of info comes from where? Or is it just makeyuppy? Have you 'been in the party long enough'? Didn't think so

Chips Lovell

Count Marcula is permanently sitebanned, so won't be back

Rumpy Pumpy

Red_Wake wrote: »

Did he give a reason?

Him and Mary-Lou were considered the front runners, and personally I'd have tipped him for it over Mary-Lou.

Pearse is seen as being a bit soft on the nationalistic side of things. Has a northern accent, but his heart isn't in it when it comes to dealing with the unelected leadership from the Bogside and Ballymurphy.

Red_Wake

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

Did he give a reason?

Him and Mary-Lou were considered the front runners, and personally I'd have tipped him for it over Mary-Lou.

Pearse is seen as being a bit soft on the nationalistic side of things. Has a northern accent, but his heart isn't in it when it comes to dealing with the unelected leadership from the Bogside and Ballymurphy.

That's surprising, I always thought he was the more nationalistic of the two, and Mary-Lou would be seen as soft on the republican front.

Brendan Bendar

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

Pearse is seen as being a bit soft on the nationalistic side of things. Has a northern accent, but his heart isn't in it when it comes to dealing with the unelected leadership from the Bogside and Ballymurphy.

Good point there RP, this poster would agree with that incisive assessment.

Rumpy Pumpy

Red_Wake wrote: »

That's surprising, I always thought he was the more nationalistic of the two, and Mary-Lou would be seen as soft on the republican front.

No, Mary-Lou would be by far the more republican of the two. During her time in FF she gained a reputation as being the young lady who never stopped harping on about the North, much to the chagrin of the crew in FF who paid lip-service to the 'national question'. Signed up to the entire doctrine when she jumped ship.

She's a capable politician, but her shrill voice and agin' everything stance is starting to wear very thin.

FrancieBrady

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

Pearse is seen as being a bit soft on the nationalistic side of things. Has a northern accent, but his heart isn't in it when it comes to dealing with the unelected leadership from the Bogside and Ballymurphy.

Where is the evidence of this?
Are you just posting your impressions?

I see no evidence of division north and south in SF. Could you point out where this is evident?

Rumpy Pumpy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where is the evidence of this?
Are you just posting your impressions?

I see no evidence of division north and south in SF. Could you point out where this is evident?

There's absolutely no evidence, Francie. Stock and trade for politics, especially for a party like SF. Surely you aren't looking for the minutes from the latest leadership contest?

Having a close ear into the goings-on around Kildare Street is enough for me.

FrancieBrady

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

There's absolutely no evidence, Francie. Stock and trade for politics, especially for a party like SF. Surely you aren't looking for the minutes from the latest leadership contest?

Having a close ear into the goings-on around Kildare Street is enough for me.

As I thought then. Fanciful speculation based on nothing but imagination.

Jawgap

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

There's absolutely no evidence, Francie. Stock and trade for politics, especially for a party like SF. Surely you aren't looking for the minutes from the latest leadership contest?

Having a close ear into the goings-on around Kildare Street is enough for me.

minutes? Contest? It would seem not......

Sinn Féin demeans women and is ‘power and money mad’, ex-councillor claims

“It’s really aggressive and nobody is stopping them. It is a culture of men. It gives you the illusion that they support women. They tell the women what to do.

“I was told one day Mary Lou (McDonald) goes to the gates of the Dáil and she does exactly what we are doing. She does what she is told.

“When you look at how prominent some of the TD’s are up there yet they have no voice. I hear Vincent Browne and it is funny when I see shows where he says ‘Sinn Féin have a very democratic way of electing their party leader’. They do in their arse. You are told who to vote for all the time and he (Adams) is always the only name. What is democratic about that?”

FrancieBrady

Into the arms of a welcoming media will the disgruntled run.

If you can time your run for a period when SF are doing some PR sooooo much the better.

Can serious political posters not see through this stuff???

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Into the arms of a welcoming media will the disgruntled run.

If you can time your run for a period when SF are doing some PR sooooo much the better.

Can serious political posters not see through this stuff???

To lose one councillor might seem unfortunate......two is looking like carelessness

More than two?

Sinn Féin councillor resigns over alleged ‘toxic’ bullying

I assume Harry McGee, the IT's political correspondent would be regarded as something of a "serious" commentator? His chronicling of this topic can be found here.....

Sinn Féin faces yet another claim of a toxic, bullying culture

However, this was not an isolated allegation of bullying. Ten Sinn Féin councillors in six counties have resigned from the party over the past three years, or are in dispute with it, amid various claims of bullying, “sham investigations”, whispering campaigns, and diktats from “middle management” prescribing what is said and determining how votes are taken.

It is clear Sinn Féin did intervene in all the disputes. The problem is that none were resolved and there are questions around the process the party has in place. The contention that the bullying claims are inflated, or are part of an agenda by others, does not stand up to scrutiny.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

To lose one councillor might seem unfortunate......two is looking like carelessness

More than two?

Sinn Féin councillor resigns over alleged ‘toxic’ bullying

I assume Harry McGee, the IT's political correspondent would be regarded as something of a "serious" commentator? His chronicling of this topic can be found here.....

Sinn Féin faces yet another claim of a toxic, bullying culture

Alan Shatter just spent three quarters of an hour talking about his career, which ended because of what could described as inner party bullying and jostling... If you were suitably inclined to depict it as that.

Once again we have lurid tabloid style allegations without a shred of actual evidence.

Don't you not just get tired?

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Alan Shatter just spent three quarters of an hour talking about his career, which ended because of what could described as inner party bullying and jostling... If you were suitably inclined to depict it as that.

Once again we have lurid tabloid style allegations without a shred of actual evidence.

Don't you not just get tired?

Isn't this a thread about SF, not FG?

Plus, in each of the articles I linked are there not people providing firsthand accounts of their experiences as members of SF? Including one where the person involved carried the title "Equality Officer"? And did the journalists and correspondents not offer SF a right of reply?........in summary, I know the IT is wavering with respect to its usual standards, but it seems to me they've yet to get even on nodding terms "lurid tabloid style allegations."

Btw, in many of the bullying cases mentioned a quick Google brings you to radio interviews the victims of the bullies in SF have given, so their accounts can be listened to without the contextualisation that can sometimes accompany printed stories.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Isn't this a thread about SF, not FG?

Plus, in each of the articles I linked are there not people providing firsthand accounts of their experiences as members of SF? Including one where the person involved carried the title "Equality Officer"? And did the journalists and correspondents not offer SF a right of reply?........in summary, I know the IT is wavering with respect to its usual standards, but it seems to me they've yet to get even on nodding terms "lurid tabloid style allegations."

Btw, in many of the bullying cases mentioned a quick Google brings you to radio interviews the victims of the bullies in SF have given, so their accounts can be listened to without the contextualisation that can sometimes accompany printed stories.

Yeh, it's a thread about the leadership of SF which has become the usual Mecca for those who want to flex their usual tired allegations.

Not one of these allegations is backed by a shred of actual evidence.
Did the latest alleger wake up one morning and realise this and ran to the media?
Could they not have done a Maurice McCabe and assembled some credible evidence of 'women being ordered to behave in certain ways'.
I'd pay good money to see Mary Lou being told what to do.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh, it's a thread about the leadership of SF which has become the usual Mecca for those who want to flex their usual tired allegations.

Not one of these allegations is backed by a shred of actual evidence.
Did the latest alleger wake up one morning and realise this and ran to the media?
Could they not have done a Maurice McCabe and assembled some credible evidence of 'women being ordered to behave in certain ways'.
I'd pay good money to see Mary Lou being told what to do.

As I said, one case you could put down to a disgruntled comrade......a whole bunch of them?

Surely it's a failure of leadership that such a culture of bullying could be let run untrammelled through the party?

Plus, I presume if Harry McGee got his story wrong, there has or will be a retraction in the IT. I'm open to correction but I don't believe any retraction (or correction) has been published?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh, it's a thread about the leadership of SF which has become the usual Mecca for those who want to flex their usual tired allegations.

Not one of these allegations is backed by a shred of actual evidence.
Did the latest alleger wake up one morning and realise this and ran to the media?
Could they not have done a Maurice McCabe and assembled some credible evidence of 'women being ordered to behave in certain ways'.
I'd pay good money to see Mary Lou being told what to do.

Most of the evidence about SF is buried.

Rather than focus on the substance of the bullying allegations, as in many of those cases, you need to have witness evidence, it would be much better to focus on the way that these allegations have been handled by Sinn Fein.

Similar to IRA kangaroo cases, these bullying allegations have been dealt with almost exclusively in-house by SF's own leadership. That is as far from a fit-for-purpose Dignity and Respect approach as it is possible to be.

At the very least, SF should be instituting a training programme for officials and elected representatives run by outsiders on issues around dignity and respect. In order to restore confidence internally in the party, they should also have some external investigations of the incidents. When a culture of hiding bullying arises, as it has done in SF with the repeated denials of anything to see, it actually perpetuates and encourages bullies. To ensure the problem doesn't get worse, SF need to show clearly with actions (like those I outlined) rather than words that they don't tolerate bullying within the ranks.

Jawgap

blanch152 wrote: »

Most of the evidence about SF is buried.

Rather than focus on the substance of the bullying allegations, as in many of those cases, you need to have witness evidence, it would be much better to focus on the way that these allegations have been handled by Sinn Fein.

Similar to IRA kangaroo cases, these bullying allegations have been dealt with almost exclusively in-house by SF's own leadership. That is as far from a fit-for-purpose Dignity and Respect approach as it is possible to be.

At the very least, SF should be instituting a training programme for officials and elected representatives run by outsiders on issues around dignity and respect. In order to restore confidence internally in the party, they should also have some external investigations of the incidents. When a culture of hiding bullying arises, as it has done in SF with the repeated denials of anything to see, it actually perpetuates and encourages bullies. To ensure the problem doesn't get worse, SF need to show clearly with actions (like those I outlined) rather than words that they don't tolerate bullying within the ranks.

It may all yet come out.......

Legal threat over Sinn Féin bullying allegations

.....just not in a "court" over which they wield absolute authority.

If there are that many cases, then to me it would suggest a failure of leadership.......either they knew and did nothing, or they didn't know but really should have.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Most of the evidence about SF is buried.

Rather than focus on the substance of the bullying allegations, as in many of those cases, you need to have witness evidence, it would be much better to focus on the way that these allegations have been handled by Sinn Fein.

Similar to IRA kangaroo cases, these bullying allegations have been dealt with almost exclusively in-house by SF's own leadership. That is as far from a fit-for-purpose Dignity and Respect approach as it is possible to be.

At the very least, SF should be instituting a training programme for officials and elected representatives run by outsiders on issues around dignity and respect. In order to restore confidence internally in the party, they should also have some external investigations of the incidents. When a culture of hiding bullying arises, as it has done in SF with the repeated denials of anything to see, it actually perpetuates and encourages bullies. To ensure the problem doesn't get worse, SF need to show clearly with actions (like those I outlined) rather than words that they don't tolerate bullying within the ranks.

Can you explain why nobody has managed to leave the party with hard evidence of this 'bullying culture'?

Political parties are robust places. Locally I could take you to the homes of members of every party of the state who have fallen out with those party's. FF, FG etc. Whose stories could be represented as bullying if you so wanted to do that.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you explain why nobody has managed to leave the party with hard evidence of this 'bullying culture'?

Political parties are robust places. Locally I could take you to the homes of members of every party of the state who have fallen out with those party's. FF, FG etc. Whose stories could be represented as bullying if you so wanted to do that.

Have you ever been involved in a bullying investigation? Most bullies are clever enough to leave little or no hard evidence available.

Many organisations think that they don't have a bullying problem because repeated internal investigations of allegations find no evidence. Unfortunately, it becomes clear as the number of cases builds up that they don't just have a bullying problem but also a bullying investigation problem. The clearest sign of something being wrong is a significant volume of cases because it speaks to a cultural issue within an organisation.

At the very least, Sinn Fein should be self-aware enough to be pro-active in addressing Dignity and Respect issues to show that they don't tolerate a bullying culture. That the opposite is happening tells a tale of a defensive organisation that knows it has a problem.

Jawgap

blanch152 wrote: »

Have you ever been involved in a bullying investigation? Most bullies are clever enough to leave little or no hard evidence available.

Many organisations think that they don't have a bullying problem because repeated internal investigations of allegations find no evidence. Unfortunately, it becomes clear as the number of cases builds up that they don't just have a bullying problem but also a bullying investigation problem. The clearest sign of something being wrong is a significant volume of cases because it speaks to a cultural issue within an organisation.

At the very least, Sinn Fein should be self-aware enough to be pro-active in addressing Dignity and Respect issues to show that they don't tolerate a bullying culture. That the opposite is happening tells a tale of a defensive organisation that knows it has a problem.

Hard to believe no evidence was found when you see who is sent to investigate.....

Martin Ferris to investigate bullying claims by Sinn Féin councillors

I would've thought it would've been better to do as others sometimes do......bring in someone affiliated to, but not a member of, the organisation (such as ideologically compatible barrister or solicitor) to investigate and report back.

Thomas__

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Into the arms of a welcoming media will the disgruntled run.

If you can time your run for a period when SF are doing some PR sooooo much the better.

Can serious political posters not see through this stuff???

I wouldn´t make the mistake to dismiss those posters who are reluctant to be dazzled by the SF propaganda to be lesser serious than others. It´s not the media who "creates" the stories, they are made by the leadership and the members of SF, the media is merely picking them up and like the other parties in the Republic too, SF gets ther bashing like FF, FG and Labour.

In my view, behind the "official" picture SF likes to maintain, the party is tidy organised and I mean that in a way that their official representatives either know their place or they´ll have no future for any sort of career within this party. You can say that such things apply to many parties as this is the way they function and too much opposition from within is no good PR when it gets leaked out to the public. It might be the case that there is still some "militancy" within SF in their attitude to lead their members, stemming from their old days when they were the political arm of the PIRA, but that lasts and vanishes with the old generation from that time.

Sooner or later, this old generation will have to hand down leadership to younger generations and it´ll be on them to "reform" the party from within and thus becoming more acceptable for voters of a lesser nationalist or even "revolutionary" political leaning.

Thomas__

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jawgap wrote: »

To lose one councillor might seem unfortunate......two is looking like carelessness

More than two?

Sinn Féin councillor resigns over alleged ‘toxic’ bullying

I assume Harry McGee, the IT's political correspondent would be regarded as something of a "serious" commentator? His chronicling of this topic can be found here.....

Sinn Féin faces yet another claim of a toxic, bullying culture

Alan Shatter just spent three quarters of an hour talking about his career, which ended because of  what could described as inner party bullying and jostling... If you were suitably inclined to depict it as that.

Once again we have lurid tabloid style allegations without a shred of actual evidence.

Don't you not just get tired?

So, what those affected SF councillors are saying doesn´t count and isn´t considered to be the truth? Why should they have made up such allegations?

Wheeliebin30

It's one big conspiracy lads.

Sure gerry Adams was never in the ira.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Have you ever been involved in a bullying investigation? Most bullies are clever enough to leave little or no hard evidence available.

Many organisations think that they don't have a bullying problem because repeated internal investigations of allegations find no evidence. Unfortunately, it becomes clear as the number of cases builds up that they don't just have a bullying problem but also a bullying investigation problem. The clearest sign of something being wrong is a significant volume of cases because it speaks to a cultural issue within an organisation.

At the very least, Sinn Fein should be self-aware enough to be pro-active in addressing Dignity and Respect issues to show that they don't tolerate a bullying culture. That the opposite is happening tells a tale of a defensive organisation that knows it has a problem.

Ah right, if you can create enough smoke there must be a fire?

If SF are bullying women, somebody is vocalising that. Yet no tapes, no attempt by journalists to tape this.
They can record FG counillors taking bungs, DUP consultants taking payments; senior Gardai can be recorded to back up allegations but not an email, recorded voice, phonecall in relation to what has been alleged here????

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Hard to believe no evidence was found when you see who is sent to investigate.....

Martin Ferris to investigate bullying claims by Sinn Féin councillors

I would've thought it would've been better to do as others sometimes do......bring in someone affiliated to, but not a member of, the organisation (such as ideologically compatible barrister or solicitor) to investigate and report back.

I knew the 'sleeping with the fishes' stock insinuation wasn't far away.

Thomas__

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

It's one big conspiracy lads.

Sure gerry Adams was never in the ira.

Sure, and he can only still claim this because no evidence for that he has been a member of the IRA was ever found. When considering what it must have been like back in those days when he was starting his career in SF, how could one get to the top and become the President of SF for more than three decades without either being a member of the IRA himself or at least with their "blessing". This "IRA connection" of SF will probably never vanish from their record and will stick on the perception of SF by many people as long as the "old guards" are in charge of the party. But I have no illusions that even some of the younger SF members do have some "admiration" for the IRA still. It doesn´t looks like as if SF would be too much bothered to change anything about that.

Thomas__

Jawgap wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

Most of the evidence about SF is buried.

Rather than focus on the substance of the bullying allegations, as in many of those cases, you need to have witness evidence, it would be much better to focus on the way that these allegations have been handled by Sinn Fein.

Similar to IRA kangaroo cases, these bullying allegations have been dealt with almost exclusively in-house by SF's own leadership. That is as far from a fit-for-purpose Dignity and Respect approach as it is possible to be.

At the very least, SF should be instituting a training programme for officials and elected representatives run by outsiders on issues around dignity and respect. In order to restore confidence internally in the party, they should also have some external investigations of the incidents. When a culture of hiding bullying arises, as it has done in SF with the repeated denials of anything to see, it actually perpetuates and encourages bullies. To ensure the problem doesn't get worse, SF need to show clearly with actions (like those I outlined) rather than words that they don't tolerate bullying within the ranks.

It may all yet come out.......

Legal threat over Sinn Féin bullying allegations

.....just not in a "court" over which they wield absolute authority.

If there are that many cases, then to me it would suggest a failure of leadership.......either they knew and did nothing, or they didn't know but really should have.

Maybe it´s nothing to do with "failure of leadership" which would lead to an even worse assumption of either tacit approval or worst, part and parcel of the whole leadership to keep officials in their place and act as the leader wants them to.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I knew the 'sleeping with the fishes' stock insinuation wasn't far away.

I'm not sure I get the appropriateness of the Sicilian Godfather reference.....That metaphor was used to announce Luca Brasi's death......


Personally, I'd have thought a Nelsonian, Battle of Copenhagen reference would be more appropriate

"I see no ships"

From the leadership's perspective one can see why they would send in Ferris, but his profile aside, one also wonders what quals and experience he brings to the conduct of a bullying investigation?

tayto lover

I can't understand SF at all. Like how is Gerry Adams still their leader?

Gerry Adams knew his own brother was a paedophile, Liam's wife and child told him. It came out in the court case. Yet Gerry knew that Liam was in Dundalk on the run from arrest (he canvassed for Gerry in Dundalk after all).
Gerry also knew that he was working as a Youth Leader in Dundalk and Gerry never reported him to the authorities ??? Despite the fact that he was working with children and knowing of Liam's own daughter's allegations ???

If this was the leader of any other party then Sinn Fein would have been all over it and insisting that he stand down but not when it's one of their own.