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Sinn Fein leadership

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    #92
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Have you ever been involved in a bullying investigation? Most bullies are clever enough to leave little or no hard evidence available.

    Many organisations think that they don't have a bullying problem because repeated internal investigations of allegations find no evidence. Unfortunately, it becomes clear as the number of cases builds up that they don't just have a bullying problem but also a bullying investigation problem. The clearest sign of something being wrong is a significant volume of cases because it speaks to a cultural issue within an organisation.

    At the very least, Sinn Fein should be self-aware enough to be pro-active in addressing Dignity and Respect issues to show that they don't tolerate a bullying culture. That the opposite is happening tells a tale of a defensive organisation that knows it has a problem.

    Hard to believe no evidence was found when you see who is sent to investigate.....

    Martin Ferris to investigate bullying claims by Sinn Féin councillors

    I would've thought it would've been better to do as others sometimes do......bring in someone affiliated to, but not a member of, the organisation (such as ideologically compatible barrister or solicitor) to investigate and report back.


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    #93
    Thomas__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Thomas__


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Into the arms of a welcoming media will the disgruntled run.

    If you can time your run for a period when SF are doing some PR sooooo much the better.

    Can serious political posters not see through this stuff???

    I wouldn´t make the mistake to dismiss those posters who are reluctant to be dazzled by the SF propaganda to be lesser serious than others. It´s not the media who "creates" the stories, they are made by the leadership and the members of SF, the media is merely picking them up and like the other parties in the Republic too, SF gets ther bashing like FF, FG and Labour.

    In my view, behind the "official" picture SF likes to maintain, the party is tidy organised and I mean that in a way that their official representatives either know their place or they´ll have no future for any sort of career within this party. You can say that such things apply to many parties as this is the way they function and too much opposition from within is no good PR when it gets leaked out to the public. It might be the case that there is still some "militancy" within SF in their attitude to lead their members, stemming from their old days when they were the political arm of the PIRA, but that lasts and vanishes with the old generation from that time.

    Sooner or later, this old generation will have to hand down leadership to younger generations and it´ll be on them to "reform" the party from within and thus becoming more acceptable for voters of a lesser nationalist or even "revolutionary" political leaning.


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    #94
    Thomas__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Thomas__


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Jawgap wrote: »
    To lose one councillor might seem unfortunate......two is looking like carelessness

    More than two?

    Sinn Féin councillor resigns over alleged ‘toxic’ bullying

    I assume Harry McGee, the IT's political correspondent would be regarded as something of a "serious" commentator? His chronicling of this topic can be found here.....

    Sinn Féin faces yet another claim of a toxic, bullying culture

    Alan Shatter just spent three quarters of an hour talking about his career, which ended because of  what could described as inner party bullying and jostling... If you were suitably inclined to depict it as that.

    Once again we have lurid tabloid style allegations without a shred of actual evidence.

    Don't you not just get tired?

    So, what those affected SF councillors are saying doesn´t count and isn´t considered to be the truth? Why should they have made up such allegations?


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    #95
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    It's one big conspiracy lads.

    Sure gerry Adams was never in the ira.


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    #96
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,094 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Have you ever been involved in a bullying investigation? Most bullies are clever enough to leave little or no hard evidence available.

    Many organisations think that they don't have a bullying problem because repeated internal investigations of allegations find no evidence. Unfortunately, it becomes clear as the number of cases builds up that they don't just have a bullying problem but also a bullying investigation problem. The clearest sign of something being wrong is a significant volume of cases because it speaks to a cultural issue within an organisation.

    At the very least, Sinn Fein should be self-aware enough to be pro-active in addressing Dignity and Respect issues to show that they don't tolerate a bullying culture. That the opposite is happening tells a tale of a defensive organisation that knows it has a problem.

    Ah right, if you can create enough smoke there must be a fire?

    If SF are bullying women, somebody is vocalising that. Yet no tapes, no attempt by journalists to tape this.
    They can record FG counillors taking bungs, DUP consultants taking payments; senior Gardai can be recorded to back up allegations but not an email, recorded voice, phonecall in relation to what has been alleged here????


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    #97
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,094 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Hard to believe no evidence was found when you see who is sent to investigate.....

    Martin Ferris to investigate bullying claims by Sinn Féin councillors

    I would've thought it would've been better to do as others sometimes do......bring in someone affiliated to, but not a member of, the organisation (such as ideologically compatible barrister or solicitor) to investigate and report back.

    I knew the 'sleeping with the fishes' stock insinuation wasn't far away.


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    #98
    Thomas__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Thomas__


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    It's one big conspiracy lads.

    Sure gerry Adams was never in the ira.

    Sure, and he can only still claim this because no evidence for that he has been a member of the IRA was ever found. When considering what it must have been like back in those days when he was starting his career in SF, how could one get to the top and become the President of SF for more than three decades without either being a member of the IRA himself or at least with their "blessing". This "IRA connection" of SF will probably never vanish from their record and will stick on the perception of SF by many people as long as the "old guards" are in charge of the party. But I have no illusions that even some of the younger SF members do have some "admiration" for the IRA still. It doesn´t looks like as if SF would be too much bothered to change anything about that.


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    #99
    Thomas__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Thomas__


    Jawgap wrote: »
    blanch152 wrote: »
    Most of the evidence about SF is buried.

    Rather than focus on the substance of the bullying allegations, as in many of those cases, you need to have witness evidence, it would be much better to focus on the way that these allegations have been handled by Sinn Fein.

    Similar to IRA kangaroo cases, these bullying allegations have been dealt with almost exclusively in-house by SF's own leadership. That is as far from a fit-for-purpose Dignity and Respect approach as it is possible to be.

    At the very least, SF should be instituting a training programme for officials and elected representatives run by outsiders on issues around dignity and respect. In order to restore confidence internally in the party, they should also have some external investigations of the incidents. When a culture of hiding bullying arises, as it has done in SF with the repeated denials of anything to see, it actually perpetuates and encourages bullies. To ensure the problem doesn't get worse, SF need to show clearly with actions (like those I outlined) rather than words that they don't tolerate bullying within the ranks.

    It may all yet come out.......

    Legal threat over Sinn Féin bullying allegations

    .....just not in a "court" over which they wield absolute authority.

    If there are that many cases, then to me it would suggest a failure of leadership.......either they knew and did nothing, or they didn't know but really should have.

    Maybe it´s nothing to do with "failure of leadership" which would lead to an even worse assumption of either tacit approval or worst, part and parcel of the whole leadership to keep officials in their place and act as the leader wants them to.


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    #100
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I knew the 'sleeping with the fishes' stock insinuation wasn't far away.

    I'm not sure I get the appropriateness of the Sicilian Godfather reference.....That metaphor was used to announce Luca Brasi's death......


    Personally, I'd have thought a Nelsonian, Battle of Copenhagen reference would be more appropriate

    "I see no ships"

    From the leadership's perspective one can see why they would send in Ferris, but his profile aside, one also wonders what quals and experience he brings to the conduct of a bullying investigation?


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    #101
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    I can't understand SF at all. Like how is Gerry Adams still their leader?

    Gerry Adams knew his own brother was a paedophile, Liam's wife and child told him. It came out in the court case. Yet Gerry knew that Liam was in Dundalk on the run from arrest (he canvassed for Gerry in Dundalk after all).
    Gerry also knew that he was working as a Youth Leader in Dundalk and Gerry never reported him to the authorities ??? Despite the fact that he was working with children and knowing of Liam's own daughter's allegations ???

    If this was the leader of any other party then Sinn Fein would have been all over it and insisting that he stand down but not when it's one of their own.


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    #102
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,434 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Ah right, if you can create enough smoke there must be a fire?

    If SF are bullying women, somebody is vocalising that. Yet no tapes, no attempt by journalists to tape this.
    They can record FG counillors taking bungs, DUP consultants taking payments; senior Gardai can be recorded to back up allegations but not an email, recorded voice, phonecall in relation to what has been alleged here????


    I'll just repeat my question.
    blanch152 wrote: »
    Have you ever been involved in a bullying investigation? Most bullies are clever enough to leave little or no hard evidence available.

    .


    I have worked in HR in a large organisation and know how difficult it is to pin down bullying allegations and how insidious a bullying culture is and how hard to eradicate.

    Getting Martin Ferris to investigate shows they have no intention of addressing the issue. I am no shrinking violet but I wouldn't want him investigating me. How a mid-20s female bullying victim would cope is another story.


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    #103
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,434 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Ah right, if you can create enough smoke there must be a fire?

    To address this, let us go to the Health and Safety Authority website:

    http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Workplace_Health/Bullying_at_Work/

    "Where a bullying culture has been identified, (through a number of complaints being received, for instance) employers must take reasonable measures to prevent incidents of bullying occurring (through awareness raising and training as well as reacting speedily to resolve issues early/progress investigations and/or initiate control measures). "


    Quite clearly the HSA believes that the fact of a number of complaints being received identifies a bullying culture. They don't rely on complaints being upheld. They also suggest the measures I have mentioned - awareness raising and training (though their language is better).


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    #104
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,094 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    To address this, let us go to the Health and Safety Authority website:

    http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Workplace_Health/Bullying_at_Work/

    "Where a bullying culture has been identified, (through a number of complaints being received, for instance) employers must take reasonable measures to prevent incidents of bullying occurring (through awareness raising and training as well as reacting speedily to resolve issues early/progress investigations and/or initiate control measures). "


    Quite clearly the HSA believes that the fact of a number of complaints being received identifies a bullying culture. They don't rely on complaints being upheld. They also suggest the measures I have mentioned - awareness raising and training (though their language is better).
    I'm sure SF will take that on board.
    Like evey organisation has to.


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    #105
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,937 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    From my own home county I believe what happens is you get elected to the Co. Council for SF. ... Then a secret kabal of influencers start directing you to the point of asking you to step aside to allow their chosen candidate run etc.. It's almost like they have an army council running things behind the scenes :)


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    #106
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,094 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I'll just repeat my question.




    I have worked in HR in a large organisation and know how difficult it is to pin down bullying allegations and how insidious a bullying culture is and how hard to eradicate.

    Getting Martin Ferris to investigate shows they have no intention of addressing the issue. I am no shrinking violet but I wouldn't want him investigating me. How a mid-20s female bullying victim would cope is another story.

    Btw. My wife was involved in a fairly prominent bullying case (institutional) . Those involved were told to gather evidence, create lots, save emails etc. Which they did and had done (common sense really)
    Bullies gone, simple as. Institution survived once the bully was removed.


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    #107
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,434 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I'm sure SF will take that on board.
    Like evey organisation has to.



    Unfortunately, they show no signs of doing so.


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    #108
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,094 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Unfortunately, they show no signs of doing so.

    Probably because there is no evidence of a culture of bullying.

    Do you really believe Mary Lou left FF and is happily a puppet of some underground IRA monsters? Really?


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    #109
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Probably because there is no evidence of a culture of bullying.

    Do you really believe Mary Lou left FF and is happily a puppet of some underground IRA monsters? Really?

    well let's play the SF semantics game........

    ......you say there is no evidence of a culture of bullying........do you accept, however, that there are instances of bullying?

    .....and do you accept that given the number of reported instances in the media that the leadership of SF have failed to get a grasp on the issue?


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    #110
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,094 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jawgap wrote: »
    well let's play the SF semantics game........

    ......you say there is no evidence of a culture of bullying........do you accept, however, that there are instances of bullying?

    .....and do you accept that given the number of reported instances in the media that the leadership of SF have failed to get a grasp on the issue?

    I accept that there are allegations of bullying and that the normal cut and thrust within parties can be construed as bullying.
    I see no evidence of anything alleged Which is not to say there hasn't been individual instances.

    I don't trust the elements of the media that have a long track record of sensationalism about this party I'm afraid.
    I don't think anyone is under onus to respond to them.
    I wish one of these valiant hacks could get some hard evidence for once, like they did with the corrupt FG councillor taking a bung. Or the DUP advisor taking a payment.

    If somebody is controlling SF women it could not be that hard to prove it.


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    #111
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,434 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Probably because there is no evidence of a culture of bullying.

    Do you really believe Mary Lou left FF and is happily a puppet of some underground IRA monsters? Really?

    There is loads of evidence. As the HSA says a culture of bullying can be identified through a number of complaints being received. We have seen the complaints all over the newspapers. We know they are numerous, we know that 10% of elected councillors have resigned since the last election. We know these complaints are geographically dispersed. Everything points to a culture of bullying.

    When an organisation allows this perception to develop (and it is clearly at least a perception in this case) of a bullying culture, steps must be taken to bring in a programme of training and awareness raising. In the case of a public organisation, this must be done publicly.

    I actually don't know why I am offering these helpful suggestions, as if this culture persists, the only way for Sinn Fein is down.
    blanch152 wrote: »
    To address this, let us go to the Health and Safety Authority website:

    http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Workplace_Health/Bullying_at_Work/

    "Where a bullying culture has been identified, (through a number of complaints being received, for instance) employers must take reasonable measures to prevent incidents of bullying occurring (through awareness raising and training as well as reacting speedily to resolve issues early/progress investigations and/or initiate control measures). "


    Quite clearly the HSA believes that the fact of a number of complaints being received identifies a bullying culture. They don't rely on complaints being upheld. They also suggest the measures I have mentioned - awareness raising and training (though their language is better).


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    #112
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,434 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I accept that there are allegations of bullying

    Well then, we have met the evidential threshold set out by the HSA and the recommended steps of awareness raising and training should be taken.


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    #113
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I accept that there are allegations of bullying and that the normal cut and thrust within parties can be construed as bullying.
    I see no evidence of anything alleged Which is not to say there hasn't been individual instances.

    I don't trust the elements of the media that have a long track record of sensationalism about this party I'm afraid.
    I don't think anyone is under onus to respond to them.
    I wish one of these valiant hacks could get some hard evidence for once, like they did with the corrupt FG councillor taking a bung. Or the DUP advisor taking a payment.

    If somebody is controlling SF women it could not be that hard to prove it.

    Why are so many councillors resigning and citing bullying?

    The word cult really is appropriate.......people leave and huge efforts are put into discrediting them and what they have to say.

    Hopefully, the court case mentioned above will go ahead and we'll get some insight.

    Time for dinner here......so, night, night.


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    #114
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,094 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Why are so many councillors resigning and citing bullying?

    The word cult really is appropriate.......people leave and huge efforts are put into discrediting them and what they have to say.

    Hopefully, the court case mentioned above will go ahead and we'll get some insight.

    Time for dinner here......so, night, night.
    Huge efforts to discredit them?

    Yourself and blanch are the ones insisting on talking about them.

    Yeh, I agree about the court case but not before Regina Doherty gets her cases (was it 40 or 60) of abuse to court. Not to mention Michael's ones.

    As I say, don't you not just get weary of this stuff?


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    #115
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Huge efforts to discredit them?

    Yourself and blanch are the ones insisting on talking about them.

    Yeh, I agree about the court case but not before Regina Doherty gets her cases (was it 40 or 60) of abuse to court. Not to mention Michael's ones.

    As I say, don't you not just get weary of this stuff?

    Oh right.....so no one is allowed sue SF or have their tights vindicated in court if they're an SF or ex-SF member until all other cases involving or potentially involving politicians are disposed of first?

    My own view, fwiw, is that SF's leadership will want any cases to go away quickly and quietly. The last thing they want - or one of the last things - is to be facing into a GE campaign with something like this running through the courts, on top of all the other explaining they normally have to do, as well as the inevitable gaffes from Adams, they'll not have much time for pushing policies.......although given the inevitable lack of coherence on such matters that may not be necessarily a bad thing.

    I'd say the other problem the leadership might have is that a large chunk of those who have been bullied will be unwilling to take a settlement and go quietly into the night with a payout.......but as in all things we'll see. There could be yet more victims to emerge once they see they are not alone.


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    #116
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,094 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Oh right.....so no one is allowed sue SF or have their tights vindicated in court if they're an SF or ex-SF member until all other cases involving or potentially involving politicians are disposed of first?

    My own view, fwiw, is that SF's leadership will want any cases to go away quickly and quietly. The last thing they want - or one of the last things - is to be facing into a GE campaign with something like this running through the courts, on top of all the other explaining they normally have to do, as well as the inevitable gaffes from Adams, they'll not have much time for pushing policies.......although given the inevitable lack of coherence on such matters that may not be necessarily a bad thing.

    I'd say the other problem the leadership might have is that a large chunk of those who have been bullied will be unwilling to take a settlement and go quietly into the night with a payout.......but as in all things we'll see. There could be yet more victims to emerge once they see they are not alone.


    My own view is that this is just sensationalising of a problem all political parties have because of the nature of politics. As I said, I could point to several local activists in all the major parties, who fell foul of the party and are simpering quietly.

    The world and it's mother know (to the point of parody) that there is an element of the media and internet boards just waiting with open arms for people with stories like this about SF in particular.

    Like others, they too will be discarded once the lurid headline fades and the photo ops diminish.


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    #117
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,434 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    My own view is that this is just sensationalising of a problem all political parties have because of the nature of politics. As I said, I could point to several local activists in all the major parties, who fell foul of the party and are simpering quietly.

    The world and it's mother know (to the point of parody) that there is an element of the media and internet boards just waiting with open arms for people with stories like this about SF in particular.

    Like others, they too will be discarded once the lurid headline fades and the photo ops diminish.


    It is a bad sign when people deny an obvious bullying problem in an organisation.

    10% of the councillors leaving is not "several local activists".


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    #118
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    My own view is that this is just sensationalising of a problem all political parties have because of the nature of politics. As I said, I could point to several local activists in all the major parties, who fell foul of the party and are simpering quietly.

    The world and it's mother know (to the point of parody) that there is an element of the media and internet boards just waiting with open arms for people with stories like this about SF in particular.

    Like others, they too will be discarded once the lurid headline fades and the photo ops diminish.

    Sinn fein is expanding too quickly and has taken on too many members of questionable moral quality who would have run a mile from republicanism in the troubles


    Any place where there's rapid expansion will see forming of new cliques etc,and sinn fein could do worse than taking on a internal disputes offialtor to oversee these type disputes as it serves noone to see people walking and complaining of bullying

    It's an in house problem and needs to be sorted inhouse


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    #119
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Sinn fein is expanding too quickly and has taken on too many members of questionable moral quality who would have run a mile from republicanism in the troubles


    Any place where there's rapid expansion will see forming of new cliques etc,and sinn fein could do worse than taking on a internal disputes offialtor to oversee these type disputes as it serves noone to see people walking and complaining of bullying

    It's an in house problem and needs to be sorted inhouse

    Questionable moral quality because they refused to associate with the 'RA-heads during the Troubles? Sounds like these are exactly the type of folks SF should be courting to allow the leadership to apply a veneer of respectability to the party!

    In fact it sounds like certain people who would've avoided SF 20+ years ago joined and are perhaps finding some truth in the fable of the Farmer and the Viper........wherein they are very much cast in the role of the Farmer.


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    #120
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,094 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Questionable moral quality because they refused to associate with the 'RA-heads during the Troubles? Sounds like these are exactly the type of folks SF should be courting to allow the leadership to apply a veneer of respectability to the party!

    In fact it sounds like certain people who would've avoided SF 20+ years ago joined and are perhaps finding some truth in the fable of the Farmer and the Viper........wherein they are very much cast in the role of the Farmer.

    Some people can't handle the cut and thrust of party politics. Every party has this kind of turnover of people.

    Not every party has a hostile media waiting to sensationalise the ordinary and a gullible section of the public waiting to be outraged by it...momentarily...again and again.


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    #121
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Sinn fein is expanding too quickly and has taken on too many members of questionable moral quality who would have run a mile from republicanism in the troubles
    Did you really intend posting that?
    Surely staying away from murder is a good thing? It is for normal people!

    As for the insinuation that those who left SF are of "questionable moral quality", what grounds do you have for that accusation?
    tomwaterford wrote: »
    It's an in house problem and needs to be sorted inhouse
    Indeed there is a problem within the SF house!


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