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Eirgrid figures during night time EV charging

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24567…13

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    #32
    Red Alert
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭Red Alert


    BoatMad wrote: »
    The car has a timer, thats all thats needed. its the same with your dishwasher

    I'm aware of that, but using the meter time could in theory avoid having to set (and check) a load of other timers. The meter timer only seems to be used for night storage heaters by most people, but I imagine the ESB don't care what one actually uses the control pair to switch.


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    #33
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Red Alert wrote: »
    I'm aware of that, but using the meter time could in theory avoid having to set (and check) a load of other timers. The meter timer only seems to be used for night storage heaters by most people, but I imagine the ESB don't care what one actually uses the control pair to switch.

    not necessarily a great idea to bring all night rate devices at the same time


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    #34
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,130 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    It would be a kick, a lot worse than boiling the kettles at half time.


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    #35
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    BoatMad wrote: »
    we bring the dishwasher and washing machine on at midnight and the car at 2 am ( 32A EVSE) . The house can actually support both domestics and the car on at night ( just dont have a power shower at 4 am !! )

    Issue with washing machine coming on at the start of the night saver period rather than the end is the clothes can smell a bit iffy if left overnight in the machine. I (ie my wife) find it worst during warm weather.


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    #36
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,007 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    I contacted BG today to ask about changing my Rural24 tariff to one which allows me to use night time units.

    They said it would cost €270, if the meter was already changed over by a previous owner, as its only free for the 1st time.
    Their records indicate not, but I have had to email ESB to check.


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    #37
    sgalvin
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭sgalvin


    I worked for the Esb metering department for a summer a long time back and many meters had an output signal when on night rate.
    The nigh rate meter clocks were set "approximately +/- 15 mins " rather than exactly to prevent this jolt.

    Everyone got their 8 hours but not all All exactly at the same time. At the time it would have been hit water and storage heating so 15 mins wouldn't really matter.

    I can't image today they want everything starting at the same time either.

    As meters become smarter, perhaps we will be buying at the wholesale rate + a margin and night loads could be brought on and off to reduce cost for the customer and use spare capacity better.

    By charging cars at night at periods when electricity is cheapest, it would serve all interests.

    BoatMad wrote: »
    not necessarily a great idea to bring all night rate devices at the same time


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    #38
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Issue with washing machine coming on at the start of the night saver period rather than the end is the clothes can smell a bit iffy if left overnight in the machine. I (ie my wife) find it worst during warm weather.

    Many washing machines have a hold timer function. For instance on my washing machine, I can load it and tell it to wait either 3, 6 or 9 hours before starting.

    I often load it before going to bed and timed to start 2 hours before we get up. So it is just finishing when we get up and can unload it straight away.

    Note my washing machine is now 10 years old and is the cheapest prefitted junk imaginable (came with the place), so I'd imagine it most be a common feature.


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    #39
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,271 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Wind bids in to the market at 0 cost so will always be accepted. The highest co2/kWh is at night when the demand is around 2GW. Renewables are still restricted to 65% however that's only if certain criteria is meet. Monrypoint and other plants make up the baseliad and provide spinning reserve and inertia. So there's only a small amount of capacity for wind.


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    #40
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    sgalvin wrote: »
    I worked for the Esb metering department for a summer a long time back and many meters had an output signal when on night rate.
    The nigh rate meter clocks were set "approximately +/- 15 mins " rather than exactly to prevent this jolt.

    Everyone got their 8 hours but not all All exactly at the same time. At the time it would have been hit water and storage heating so 15 mins wouldn't really matter.

    I can't image today they want everything starting at the same time either.

    As meters become smarter, perhaps we will be buying at the wholesale rate + a margin and night loads could be brought on and off to reduce cost for the customer and use spare capacity better.

    By charging cars at night at periods when electricity is cheapest, it would serve all interests.

    Variable smart pricing isn't going to suit EV hone charging


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    #41
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,072 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Variable smart pricing isn't going to suit EV hone charging

    From what perspective? Price?


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    #42
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Variable smart pricing isn't going to suit EV hone charging

    Why? It seems highly suited to it.

    You could set it up something like, make sure I always have minimum of 10kwh (daily commute) at any price and beyond that only charge when the price drops below x cent per kwh.


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    #43
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    bk wrote: »
    Why? It seems highly suited to it.

    You could set it up something like, make sure I always have minimum of 10kwh (daily commute) at any price and beyond that only charge when the price drops below x cent per kwh.

    If you need 6-8 hours at night rate , then having variable pricing means you can't predict cost

    Cars at not at home during the day etc


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    #44
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,800 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    BoatMad wrote: »
    If you need 6-8 hours at night rate , then having variable pricing means you can't predict cost

    So what? It will be cheap, probably a lot cheaper than it is now at times with lots of wind.


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    #45
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BoatMad wrote: »
    If you need 6-8 hours at night rate , then having variable pricing means you can't predict cost

    At night it will end up being the same or even cheaper then it currently is.
    BoatMad wrote: »
    Cars at not at home during the day etc

    Plenty of cars at home during the day! The underground car park at my place is half full during the day (now that I think of it, it shows the potential for car pooling services once full self driving comes in).

    Also benefits people with work and destination charging.


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    #46
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    NIMAN wrote: »
    I contacted BG today to ask about changing my Rural24 tariff to one which allows me to use night time units.

    They said it would cost €270, if the meter was already changed over by a previous owner, as its only free for the 1st time.
    Their records indicate not, but I have had to email ESB to check.

    The same old garbage. Ask to speak to a manager (or better, again use email).

    We have a new style meter. I've switched between 24hr and Nightsaver billing a number of times and have always been told I'd have to pay "to have the meter changed". I've always insisted that the meter doesn't need to be changed, just the way I'm billed. It has been painful at times but I've never been charged to change over.

    The last time I changed (this time last year) SSE Airtricity went from insisting I had to pay €230 to switch back to Nightsaver to eventually conceding I might not need a new meter but they were going to ask ESB Networks to inspect it anyway and take his advice. When he arrived the first thing he said is "You've already got the right meter. Did they tell you you had to pay for a new one? FFS...". He entered a note in the comments section on whatever system they use, something along the lines of "Multirate meter. Never needs to be replaced, unless faulty".


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    #47
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    At night it will end up being the same or even cheaper then it currently is.

    If I had tuppence for people telling me a new service would be " cheaper "......

    Im reminded of
    It is not too much to expect that our children will enjoy in their homes electrical energy too cheap to meter,–will know of great periodic regional famines in the world only as matters of history,–will travel effortlessly over the seas and under them and through the air with a minimum of danger and at great speeds,–and will experience a lifespan far longer than ours, as disease yields and man comes to understand what causes him to age. This is the forecast for an age of peace.”

    A quote in 1954 by Lewis Struass , US Atomic energy commission in 1954

    how'd that work out Lewis !!!


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    #48
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,800 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    I can see the total energy spent per household (heating / water / car fuel / electricity etc. ) going down rather than up in the next few decades.

    My own total energy cost has gone down by more than 60% after going from an ICE to an EV this year. Renewables will get cheaper and cheaper while fossil fuels / nuclear will get more expensive (probably because of environmental charges more so than the actual fuel cost)


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    #49
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,800 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Im reminded of



    A quote in 1954 by Lewis Struass , US Atomic energy commission in 1954

    how'd that work out Lewis !!!

    He obviously envisioned fusion and not fission. And he might very well be proven right yet.


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    #50
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    unkel wrote: »
    He obviously envisioned fusion and not fission. And he might very well be proven right yet.

    its has been debated was Strauus meant , and largely it related to fission and was his own personal opinion , not shared buy the AEC or the industry and nobody thanked him for his comments


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    #51
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,800 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    It was a visionary, but extremely optimistic comment (we can now say with hindsight)

    No reason why we shouldn't have (almost) free electricity at some point though. Might be many decades away. Not in our time, BoatMad :p


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    #52
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    No reason why we shouldn't have (almost) free electricity at some point though. Might be many decades away. Not in our time, BoatMad

    ah yes

    Standing tough under stars and stripes
    We can tell
    This dream's in sight
    You've got to admit it
    At this point in time that it's clear
    The future looks bright
    On that train all graphite and glitter
    Undersea by rail
    Ninety minutes from new york to paris
    Well by seventy-six we'll be a.o.k.

    Steely Dan


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    #53
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,800 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Well by seventy-six we'll be a.o.k.

    He must have meant 2076 :p


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    #54
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    unkel wrote: »
    He must have meant 2076 :p

    They, Unkel, They


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    #55
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    You can certainly do all this stuff, and there is plenty of off-peak capacity in the electricity network. Adding an interconnector to France will add even more.

    But you do need smart metering to make it really work.


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    #56
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    You can certainly do all this stuff, and there is plenty of off-peak capacity in the electricity network. Adding an interconnector to France will add even more.

    But you do need smart metering to make it really work.

    smart metering isnt much benefit to fixed hour EV recharging, unlike say water heating ,which can take place anytime in a 24 hour period

    the main issue in supporting EV home charging will be issues in the MV grid not generation capacity anyway


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    #57
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Well, you can move the exact time that the charging happens, to match when renewable supply is available. Renewable availability can change quite a lot within a few hours.

    You are right of course re the LV and MV grid. But the problem is basically similar, it's a matter of maximising a resource when it is available. Again, the key to this could be differential charging depending on whether there is capacity available at a particular time. If the charging can be coordinated, this can spread the load over the day.

    But you do need smart metering, and you also need some sort of control system.


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    #58
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    Well, you can move the exact time that the charging happens, to match when renewable supply is available. Renewable availability can change quite a lot within a few hours.

    You are right of course re the LV and MV grid. But the problem is basically similar, it's a matter of maximising a resource when it is available. Again, the key to this could be differential charging depending on whether there is capacity available at a particular time. If the charging can be coordinated, this can spread the load over the day.

    But you do need smart metering, and you also need some sort of control system.

    you dont " need " smart metering , right now we have surplus night time renewables

    smart metering is being brought in to effect variable rate pricing , that net result is dearer electricity


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    #59
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    BoatMad wrote: »
    you dont " need " smart metering , right now we have surplus night time renewables

    smart metering is being brought in to effect variable rate pricing , that net result is dearer electricity

    We have surplus renewables at various times of the day and year. Part of the idea of smart metering is to allow those surpluses to be better utilised.

    I think the point is to have the retail price better reflect the wholesale price and as a result to allow customers to save by moving away from those peak times, thereby increasing the utilisation of available capacity. Overall, this should drive down costs and prices because less capacity (power stations, transmission lines, distribution) needs to be built.

    (I don't know if I'm going to convince you.)


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    #60
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    We have surplus renewables at various times of the day and year. Part of the idea of smart metering is to allow those surpluses to be better utilised.

    I think the point is to have the retail price better reflect the wholesale price and as a result to allow customers to save by moving away from those peak times, thereby increasing the utilisation of available capacity. Overall, this should drive down costs and prices because less capacity (power stations, transmission lines, distribution) needs to be built.

    (I don't know if I'm going to convince you.)

    I never beleive when people tell me energy is going to get cheaper because of X or Y , facts and history and not on the side of that argument


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    #61
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    BoatMad wrote: »
    I never beleive when people tell me energy is going to get cheaper because of X or Y , facts and history and not on the side of that argument

    I actually agree with you generally. The reality is that we are using more and more expensive and less flexible means to generate our power (renewables) and this is definitely resulting in higher costs.

    That is why the PSO goes up every time the price of oil and gas falls and as a result we never see a real decrease in our electricity bills. The wind turbines still need to be paid for, whether oil and gas is cheap or dear. And renewables require extra grid infrastructure, and that ends up in an extra cost on the bill.

    The smart metering would at least make the whole thing a bit more efficient.


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