Eirgrid figures during night time EV charging

KCross

There have been a few posts lately about the Irish grid and how environmentally friendly it is (or isn’t!).

I pulled the data from their website for the last 30 days to see how it stacks up.

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/

I then averaged the daily values for the time period 4-8am as this is the time where most EV’s would be charging.

Wind generation provided, on average, 28% of the demand for the 4-8am period. It varied from 0-58%

The CO2 intensity figure averaged 365gCO2/kW (range 288-433)

Wind generation provided 24% of the demand over the entire 30 days(24/7).


Room for improvement, but an average of 28% isn't bad at all.

I'll repeat the analysis for some other months to see if the figures go up or down. I presume (maybe wrongly) that winter would have more wind?

jamesthepeach

KCross wrote: »

There have been a few posts lately about the Irish grid and how environmentally friendly it is (or isn’t!).

I pulled the data from their website for the last 30 days to see how it stacks up.

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/

I then averaged the daily values for the time period 4-8am as this is the time where most EV’s would be charging.

Wind generation provided, on average, 28% of the demand for the 4-8am period. It varied from 0-58%

The CO2 intensity figure averaged 365gCO2/kW (range 288-433)

Wind generation provided 24% of the demand over the entire 30 days(24/7).


Room for improvement, but an average of 28% isn't bad at all.

I'll repeat the analysis for some other months to see if the figures go up or down. I presume (maybe wrongly) that winter would have more wind?

Most EVs start charging at the minute the cheap rate kicks in.
So.if it's 11 to 8 then practically all EVs plugged in will start charging at 11 and finish at different times according to how much they have left to charge when they start. I would think that 11 would be peak charging and 8 would be minimum as a hell of a lot of them would have finished earlier and not be charging when it comes to 8.

Adjust for the 12 - 9 time accordingly. Though then you have commute start times into the equation.

KCross

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Most EVs start charging at the minute the cheap rate kicks in.
So.if it's 11 to 8 then practically all EVs plugged in will start charging at 11 and finish at different times according to how much they have left to charge when they start. I would think that 11 would be peak charging and 8 would be minimum as a hell of a lot of them would have finished earlier and not be charging when it comes to 8.

Adjust for the 12 - 9 time accordingly. Though then you have commute start times into the equation.

Not necessarily true. I have mine setup to finish at 8. The car decides when to start so it would always be in the 4-8am range.

Some people may start at 11pm and thats fine too. I'm sure the figures wouldn't change that much as an average so I still think the analysis is valid. Im not trying to cover everyones scenario here. Some people charge by day. The 4-8am figure as an average is a good representation of what EV's are doing.

jamesthepeach

KCross wrote: »

Not necessarily true. I have mine setup to finish at 8. The car decides when to start so it would always be in the 4-8am range.

Some people may start at 11pm and thats fine too. I'm sure the figures wouldn't change that much as an average so I still think the analysis is valid. Im not trying to cover everyones scenario here. Some people charge by day. The 4-8am figure as an average is a good representation of what EV's are doing.

I would say you are unusual though. So you are only covering your own scenario.
Maybe the figures wouldn't change at a, but to get the times more accurate.
Most people set it to start at 11. That way you get 100% of the night rate whether your charged to full or not. But if you start at 4 then then the max you will ever get of the night rate is less than half of it.

That's just my take on it. Others may disagree though.

KCross

jamesthepeach wrote: »

I would say you are unusual though. So you are only covering your own scenario.
Maybe the figures wouldn't change at a, but to get the times more accurate.
Most people set it to start at 11. That way you get 100% of the night rate whether your charged to full or not. But if you start at 4 then then the max you will ever get of the night rate is less than half of it.

That's just my take on it. Others may disagree though.

To be honest, I dont think it matters whether you take 11-3 or 4-8. The figure I'm giving is an average for a 4hr period during night rate (when most people charge) so you will just find that some hours will be higher and some lower and you will end up with the same average at the end.

KCross

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Most people set it to start at 11. That way you get 100% of the night rate whether your charged to full or not. But if you start at 4 then then the max you will ever get of the night rate is less than half of it.

Just to clarify on this point.... if you set the Leaf to finish at 8am you get the full night rate. The car will start at whatever time it deems appropriate to ensure it is at 100% by 8am so one night it will start at 4am, another night 2am etc depending on how low the battery is.

jamesthepeach

KCross wrote: »

Just to clarify on this point.... if you set the Leaf to finish at 8am you get the full night rate. The car will start at whatever time it deems appropriate to ensure it is at 100% by 8am so one night it will start at 4am, another night 2am etc depending on how low the battery is.

True, but I think most would start it at the beginning of the tariff rather than target the end of it. But, as you say, I'm.sure it makes no difference at all.

Sleeper12

KCross wrote:

Wind generation provided, on average, 28% of the demand for the 4-8am period. It varied from 0-58%

KCross wrote:

Room for improvement, but an average of 28% isn't bad at all.

I don't have an ev yet but when they do really take off I think you will find that wind won't cover more than 1 or 2 %. The more that change to electric the more fossil fuel they'll have to burn.

KCross

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I don't have an ev yet but when they do really take off I think you will find that wind won't cover more than 1 or 2 %. The more that change to electric the more fossil fuel they'll have to burn.

You're assuming the extra requirement would have to be fulfilled by fossil fuels. There is no reason why it can't be more wind.

Other countries are also attaching Solar PV and battery to their grids so that could also be part of the solution. Basically, fossil fuel doesn't have to be the only answer and I dont think it will. It will be a mix.

Sleeper12

KCross wrote:

Other countries are also attaching Solar PV and battery to their grids so that could also be part of the solution. Basically, fossil fuel doesn't have to be the only answer and I dont think it will. It will be a mix.

I love the idea of pv but sadly there's no selling to the grid in Ireland. ESB or the government need to cop on here. I'd have every inch of my roof covered in pv panels when the do cop on.

KCross

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I love the idea of pv but sadly there's no selling to the grid in Ireland. ESB or the government need to cop on here. I'd have every inch of my roof covered in pv panels when the do cop on.

I agree. The only Solar PV they are entertaining is the big Solar PV farms and there is quite a bit of that in plan.

macnab

The grid bring on gas plants at around 6am to get ready for the morning peak. That will reduce the ratio of wind/renewables so your figures will probably be affected.

n97 mini

Ours starts charging just after midnight (nightsaver is currently 12am-9am... 11pm and you're still on day rate). Washing machine etc comes on at 8am.

KCross

macnab wrote: »

The grid bring on gas plants at around 6am to get ready for the morning peak. That will reduce the ratio of wind/renewables so your figures will probably be affected.

Interesting.

It might affect the CO2 intensity figure but not the ratio figure as it is based on the demand figure, not generation.

cros13

We've also had a particularly bad year for wind speeds so far.

BoatMad

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I don't have an ev yet but when they do really take off I think you will find that wind won't cover more than 1 or 2 %. The more that change to electric the more fossil fuel they'll have to burn.

based on what data

given the goal is very high levels of renewables and coupled with home micro generation , the likelihood is future EV charging might be entirely " green "

BoatMad

n97 mini wrote: »

Ours starts charging just after midnight (nightsaver is currently 12am-9am... 11pm and you're still on day rate). Washing machine etc comes on at 8am.

we bring the dishwasher and washing machine on at midnight and the car at 2 am ( 32A EVSE) . The house can actually support both domestics and the car on at night ( just dont have a power shower at 4 am !! )

ei9go

Always set the timer to start at 00.15.

car usually stops charging between 3 and 4 am

7 kWh charger

KCross

All,
I understand people charge at different times. I dont think its relevant to the point of the thread though, which is how much of the demand is met by wind on the Irish grid.

I've taken a 4hr average during night rate to calculate that. That average won't change significantly if you shift the time window a few hours. Its not like the wind always blows more or less from 12-4 vs 4-8. Its swings and roundabouts.

If people feel it is relevant in some way I'll run the numbers again from 12-4 and see if I get much the same answer.

macnab

KCross wrote: »

All,
I understand people charge at different times. I dont think its relevant to the point of the thread though, which is how much of the demand is met by wind on the Irish grid.

I've taken a 4hr average during night rate to calculate that. That average won't change significantly if you shift the time window a few hours. Its not like the wind always blows more or less from 12-4 vs 4-8. Its swings and roundabouts.

If people feel it is relevant in some way I'll run the numbers again from 12-4 and see if I get much the same answer.

I would like to see the figures for 12 to 4, if you have the time.

pwurple

KCross wrote: »

All,
I understand people charge at different times. I dont think its relevant to the point of the thread though, which is how much of the demand is met by wind on the Irish grid.

Wind doesn't change, but the system demand does. Typically demand upswings from 6am onwards, so the % wind drops.

Hard to know what % of EV's charge that way also, but it's a nice to know for people.

Alongside my EV driving colleagues, I charge during the day, at work. The site is powered by a wind turbine.

KCross

pwurple wrote: »

Wind doesn't change, but the system demand does. Typically demand upswings from 6am onwards, so the % wind drops.

Hard to know what % of EV's charge that way also, but it's a nice to know for people.

Alongside my EV driving colleagues, I charge during the day, at work. The site is powered by a wind turbine.

Thats a good point. I'll run the numbers again for 12-4.

Sleeper12

BoatMad wrote: »

based on what data

given the goal is very high levels of renewables and coupled with home micro generation , the likelihood is future EV charging might be entirely " green "

Not on night rate they won't. All you'll have is wind at that hour of the night. Then it's burning fossil fuel

KCross

KCross wrote: »

All,
I understand people charge at different times. I dont think its relevant to the point of the thread though, which is how much of the demand is met by wind on the Irish grid.

I've taken a 4hr average during night rate to calculate that. That average won't change significantly if you shift the time window a few hours. Its not like the wind always blows more or less from 12-4 vs 4-8. Its swings and roundabouts.

If people feel it is relevant in some way I'll run the numbers again from 12-4 and see if I get much the same answer.

macnab wrote: »

I would like to see the figures for 12 to 4, if you have the time.

pwurple wrote: »

Wind doesn't change, but the system demand does. Typically demand upswings from 6am onwards, so the % wind drops.

Hard to know what % of EV's charge that way also, but it's a nice to know for people.

Reran the numbers for 12-4. Its the "same" (marginally better).

29% of demand is met by wind (Min 1, Max 63) from 12-4 over the last 30 days.
CO2 Intensity averaged 363gCO2/kWh (Min 265, Max 469).


Just to be clear. This is just one month of the year. I suspect these numbers have a reasonably large seasonal variation.

macnab

KCross wrote: »

Just to be clear. This is just one month of the year. I suspect these numbers have a reasonably large seasonal variation.

Yes seasonal variation is a factor. There is much more wind in the winter months, but then again demand is higher too.

KCross

I've a question for anyone in the know.

Typical day last week was 2000MW’s demand around 4am and then peaking to 3700MW at 12pm and 6pm.

Interesting is that as the morning peak occurs I’ve noticed that the wind generation seems to follow the demand curve. If it was just one day I'd say it was a coincidence but it seems to happen alot (most days last week)

Do the grid restrict/reject wind power based on market price or is there some other reason for this?

Anyone on here know how ESB ramp up/down the various plants and wind.

DATE & TIME ACTUAL GENERATION(MW) ACTUAL WIND(MW) ACTUAL DEMAND(MW)
20/08/2017 04:00 2288 206 2044
20/08/2017 04:15 2292 213 2046
20/08/2017 04:30 2312 224 2041
20/08/2017 04:45 2325 233 2046
20/08/2017 05:00 2343 263 2051
20/08/2017 05:15 2356 286 2056
20/08/2017 05:30 2363 295 2054
20/08/2017 05:45 2356 333 2059
20/08/2017 06:00 2314 375 2078
20/08/2017 06:15 2312 396 2065
20/08/2017 06:30 2273 395 2041
20/08/2017 06:45 2249 403 2047
20/08/2017 07:00 2180 389 2068
20/08/2017 07:15 2222 402 2131
20/08/2017 07:30 2270 445 2173
20/08/2017 07:45 2314 480 2230
20/08/2017 08:00 2311 458 2298
20/08/2017 08:15 2473 490 2376
20/08/2017 08:30 2621 513 2442
20/08/2017 08:45 2644 530 2527
20/08/2017 09:00 2633 544 2587
20/08/2017 09:15 2639 568 2666
20/08/2017 09:30 2639 569 2719
20/08/2017 09:45 2707 589 2771
20/08/2017 10:00 2786 576 2833
20/08/2017 10:15 2926 566 2892
20/08/2017 10:30 2931 521 2925
20/08/2017 10:45 2930 480 2953
20/08/2017 11:00 2906 507 2972
20/08/2017 11:15 3011 591 3000
20/08/2017 11:30 3054 642 3039
20/08/2017 11:45 2996 628 3053
20/08/2017 12:00 2996 633 3070

BoatMad

Do the grid restrict/reject wind power based on market price or is there some other reason for this?

CER told me that wind is regularly " switched off" in periods of low demand as conventional power generation is online anyway

Red Alert

Has anyone wired up their EVSE to the night-saver control pair to ensure that charging only happens in the off-peak period?

BoatMad

Red Alert wrote: »

Has anyone wired up their EVSE to the night-saver control pair to ensure that charging only happens in the off-peak period?

The car has a timer, thats all thats needed. its the same with your dishwasher

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

CER told me that wind is regularly " switched off" in periods of low demand as conventional power generation is online anyway

That makes sense.

And since I've seen this happen regularly it suggests there is spare wind capacity at night if there is an increase in EV uptake... how much spare is another question entirely but they seem to be able to add 100s of MW's of wind in a step like fashion so it is significant (as long as the wind is blowing of course).

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

That makes sense.

And since I've seen this happen regularly it suggests there is spare wind capacity at night if there is an increase in EV uptake... how much spare is another question entirely but they seem to be able to add 100s of MW's of wind in a step like fashion so it is significant (as long as the wind is blowing of course).

yes, this was a major point in my recent meeting with the CER, they were very enthusiastic that EVs could soak up unused green energy , especially night time energy , ( and more wind is coming online ) . They opined that in fact such energy could be much cheaper then current night time rates and this would be facilitated by the smart meter rollout program , that is due to start next year

( mind you I was reminded of the comment when nuclear was first introduced in the UK )

Red Alert

BoatMad wrote: »

The car has a timer, thats all thats needed. its the same with your dishwasher

I'm aware of that, but using the meter time could in theory avoid having to set (and check) a load of other timers. The meter timer only seems to be used for night storage heaters by most people, but I imagine the ESB don't care what one actually uses the control pair to switch.

BoatMad

Red Alert wrote: »

I'm aware of that, but using the meter time could in theory avoid having to set (and check) a load of other timers. The meter timer only seems to be used for night storage heaters by most people, but I imagine the ESB don't care what one actually uses the control pair to switch.

not necessarily a great idea to bring all night rate devices at the same time

Water John

It would be a kick, a lot worse than boiling the kettles at half time.

n97 mini

BoatMad wrote: »

we bring the dishwasher and washing machine on at midnight and the car at 2 am ( 32A EVSE) . The house can actually support both domestics and the car on at night ( just dont have a power shower at 4 am !! )

Issue with washing machine coming on at the start of the night saver period rather than the end is the clothes can smell a bit iffy if left overnight in the machine. I (ie my wife) find it worst during warm weather.

NIMAN

I contacted BG today to ask about changing my Rural24 tariff to one which allows me to use night time units.

They said it would cost €270, if the meter was already changed over by a previous owner, as its only free for the 1st time.
Their records indicate not, but I have had to email ESB to check.

sgalvin

I worked for the Esb metering department for a summer a long time back and many meters had an output signal when on night rate.
The nigh rate meter clocks were set "approximately +/- 15 mins " rather than exactly to prevent this jolt.

Everyone got their 8 hours but not all All exactly at the same time. At the time it would have been hit water and storage heating so 15 mins wouldn't really matter.

I can't image today they want everything starting at the same time either.

As meters become smarter, perhaps we will be buying at the wholesale rate + a margin and night loads could be brought on and off to reduce cost for the customer and use spare capacity better.

By charging cars at night at periods when electricity is cheapest, it would serve all interests.

BoatMad wrote: »

not necessarily a great idea to bring all night rate devices at the same time

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

Issue with washing machine coming on at the start of the night saver period rather than the end is the clothes can smell a bit iffy if left overnight in the machine. I (ie my wife) find it worst during warm weather.

Many washing machines have a hold timer function. For instance on my washing machine, I can load it and tell it to wait either 3, 6 or 9 hours before starting.

I often load it before going to bed and timed to start 2 hours before we get up. So it is just finishing when we get up and can unload it straight away.

Note my washing machine is now 10 years old and is the cheapest prefitted junk imaginable (came with the place), so I'd imagine it most be a common feature.

ted1

Wind bids in to the market at 0 cost so will always be accepted. The highest co2/kWh is at night when the demand is around 2GW. Renewables are still restricted to 65% however that's only if certain criteria is meet. Monrypoint and other plants make up the baseliad and provide spinning reserve and inertia. So there's only a small amount of capacity for wind.

BoatMad

sgalvin wrote: »

I worked for the Esb metering department for a summer a long time back and many meters had an output signal when on night rate.
The nigh rate meter clocks were set "approximately +/- 15 mins " rather than exactly to prevent this jolt.

Everyone got their 8 hours but not all All exactly at the same time. At the time it would have been hit water and storage heating so 15 mins wouldn't really matter.

I can't image today they want everything starting at the same time either.

As meters become smarter, perhaps we will be buying at the wholesale rate + a margin and night loads could be brought on and off to reduce cost for the customer and use spare capacity better.

By charging cars at night at periods when electricity is cheapest, it would serve all interests.

Variable smart pricing isn't going to suit EV hone charging

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

Variable smart pricing isn't going to suit EV hone charging

From what perspective? Price?

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

Variable smart pricing isn't going to suit EV hone charging

Why? It seems highly suited to it.

You could set it up something like, make sure I always have minimum of 10kwh (daily commute) at any price and beyond that only charge when the price drops below x cent per kwh.

BoatMad

bk wrote: »

Why? It seems highly suited to it.

You could set it up something like, make sure I always have minimum of 10kwh (daily commute) at any price and beyond that only charge when the price drops below x cent per kwh.

If you need 6-8 hours at night rate , then having variable pricing means you can't predict cost

Cars at not at home during the day etc

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

If you need 6-8 hours at night rate , then having variable pricing means you can't predict cost

So what? It will be cheap, probably a lot cheaper than it is now at times with lots of wind.

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

If you need 6-8 hours at night rate , then having variable pricing means you can't predict cost

At night it will end up being the same or even cheaper then it currently is.

BoatMad wrote: »

Cars at not at home during the day etc

Plenty of cars at home during the day! The underground car park at my place is half full during the day (now that I think of it, it shows the potential for car pooling services once full self driving comes in).

Also benefits people with work and destination charging.

n97 mini

NIMAN wrote: »

I contacted BG today to ask about changing my Rural24 tariff to one which allows me to use night time units.

They said it would cost €270, if the meter was already changed over by a previous owner, as its only free for the 1st time.
Their records indicate not, but I have had to email ESB to check.

The same old garbage. Ask to speak to a manager (or better, again use email).

We have a new style meter. I've switched between 24hr and Nightsaver billing a number of times and have always been told I'd have to pay "to have the meter changed". I've always insisted that the meter doesn't need to be changed, just the way I'm billed. It has been painful at times but I've never been charged to change over.

The last time I changed (this time last year) SSE Airtricity went from insisting I had to pay €230 to switch back to Nightsaver to eventually conceding I might not need a new meter but they were going to ask ESB Networks to inspect it anyway and take his advice. When he arrived the first thing he said is "You've already got the right meter. Did they tell you you had to pay for a new one? FFS...". He entered a note in the comments section on whatever system they use, something along the lines of "Multirate meter. Never needs to be replaced, unless faulty".

BoatMad

At night it will end up being the same or even cheaper then it currently is.

If I had tuppence for people telling me a new service would be " cheaper "......

Im reminded of

It is not too much to expect that our children will enjoy in their homes electrical energy too cheap to meter,–will know of great periodic regional famines in the world only as matters of history,–will travel effortlessly over the seas and under them and through the air with a minimum of danger and at great speeds,–and will experience a lifespan far longer than ours, as disease yields and man comes to understand what causes him to age. This is the forecast for an age of peace.”

A quote in 1954 by Lewis Struass , US Atomic energy commission in 1954

how'd that work out Lewis !!!

unkel

I can see the total energy spent per household (heating / water / car fuel / electricity etc. ) going down rather than up in the next few decades.

My own total energy cost has gone down by more than 60% after going from an ICE to an EV this year. Renewables will get cheaper and cheaper while fossil fuels / nuclear will get more expensive (probably because of environmental charges more so than the actual fuel cost)

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

Im reminded of



A quote in 1954 by Lewis Struass , US Atomic energy commission in 1954

how'd that work out Lewis !!!

He obviously envisioned fusion and not fission. And he might very well be proven right yet.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

He obviously envisioned fusion and not fission. And he might very well be proven right yet.

its has been debated was Strauus meant , and largely it related to fission and was his own personal opinion , not shared buy the AEC or the industry and nobody thanked him for his comments

unkel

It was a visionary, but extremely optimistic comment (we can now say with hindsight)

No reason why we shouldn't have (almost) free electricity at some point though. Might be many decades away. Not in our time, BoatMad