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Eirgrid figures during night time EV charging
Comments
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They can send a signal that load.But you won’t get all the cars charging and with smart meters you could stagger the charging by load shifting so you could reach close to 1,000,000 cars
smart meters can no connection to control your supply, the only way they can " load shift " is by the indirect method of tarrif structures, which si not an instantaneous process.0 -
The meter company can send signals as the day goes on, if they want to.
send signals to whom, all so called smart meters do ( and the smart meter details are known ) is report via the GSM network your consumption
( interestingly as to how they'll work where you have no mobile coverage , like my house !)But realistically, if you want to draw 10's of amps during the peak time, you are going to have to accept that you are going to pay a premium
again once you stay within the MIC, esb have NO idea what you are doing with the electrons. Yes they can impose different tariffs, but realistically people will react to very large increases in day time electricity . Hence the room for manoeuvre is relatively limitedThe likely price of electricity is known from the day-ahead market. You can schedule it the day before.
Not at a retail level, it remains to be seen how actually demand tariffs will play out, people like predictability, all the CER have stated is that it will cost 5.50 on your bill , it will NOT be mandatory for the first 2 years and that a " potential " saving of 20 euros " might " be possible per annum
My own view is that initially it simply be a scheme that essentially gives everyone a night tarrif to try and convert more people to using electricity later in the day. Day night meters have not proven to be popular
The main advantage of smart meters is two fold
(a) a reduction in staff costs associated with reading it
(b) an option giving every consumer access to night rate type tariffs as the grid has too much night time capacity at present
I dont see any situation where wholesale generation bid/spot costs are translated into retail spot type pricing
I don’t believe that the meters will be GSM based from the meters I’ve installed and the CBA I’ve done GSM makes no sense in urban areas. Mesh networks are by far cheaper0 -
What models of smart meter are you familiar with? Have you read the SMETS2 spec?
yes I have actuallyYou think there is absolutely no chance of anything even vaguely like this occurring?
NO I do not believe in the next few years we shall see 30 minutes tarrif structures even though the meter is technically capable of it
nor do I see the aux load control being used as this would need house rewiringThere is spare capacity at various times of the day, not just at night.
I know, but until we have smart devices that can respond automatically and these devices are common, there is no way the average householder can benefit from spot pricing
Right now the CER want to push more consumption into night hours and in periods of high wind generation ( or high renewables in general )
The punters ability to track this actively and control consumption is very limited currently and thats not going too change soon0 -
I don’t believe that the meters will be GSM based from the meters I’ve installed and the CBA I’ve done GSM makes no sense in urban areas. Mesh networks are by far cheaper
The CER Programme specifically states its a GSM deviceMesh networks are by far cheaper
large scale contacts for low data GSM are very very cost effective and GSM requires no further hardware then a unit in the meter , there is a option in the spec for Zigbee, but Zigbee has loads of issues0 -
The dimplex quantum range is designed to work like that and there’s many other similar devices ready, currently it’s a chicken and egg scenario but once the meters are installed the devices will become commonI know, but until we have smart devices that can respond automatically and these devices are common, there is no way the average householder can benefit from spot pricing0 -
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Have you a link, because the stuff I’ve seen is just a diagram and tough over view, what happens in programmes can often differ from what is actual agreed in Post tender design reviewsI don’t believe that the meters will be GSM based from the meters I’ve installed and the CBA I’ve done GSM makes no sense in urban areas. Mesh networks are by far cheaper
The CER Programme specifically states its a GSM deviceMesh networks are by far cheaper
large scale contacts for low data GSM are very very cost effective and GSM requires no further hardware then a unit in the meter , there is a option in the spec for Zigbee, but Zigbee has loads of issues0 -
The dimplex quantum range is designed to work like that and there’s many other similar devices ready, currently it’s a chicken and egg scenario but once the meters are installed the devices will become common
I am familiar with the QM100, it has the ability ( a sort of ability ) to predict whats called " charge time " based on a number of factors , including usage history, ambient, etc
It is fed by two mains connections , a 24 hours and a off peak supply the device must be programmed when to chooses from one or the other
if you can direct me to a Quantum model that interfaces to dynamic tariffs/smart meter I be very grateful
( or any other actual device )0 -
The dimplex quantum range is designed to work like that and there’s many other similar devices ready, currently it’s a chicken and egg scenario but once the meters are installed the devices will become common
I am familiar with the QM100, it has the ability ( a sort of ability ) to predict whats called " charge time " based on a number of factors , including usage history, ambient, etc
It is fed by two mains connections , a 24 hours and a off peak supply the device must be programmed when to chooses from one or the other
if you can direct me to a Quantum model that interfaces to dynamic tariffs/smart meter I be very grateful
( or any other actual device )
http://www.dimplexrenewables.com/uploads/Kema report_LO RES.pdf
https://www.irishtimes.com/sponsored/horizon-2020/irish-households-to-get-switched-on-to-future-of-renewable-energy-1.2684511?mode=amp
http://laundry.reviewed.com/features/whirlpools-new-connected-appliances-simplify-the-smart-grid0 -
Have you a link, because the stuff I’ve seen is just a diagram and tough over view, what happens in programmes can often differ from what is actual agreed in Post tender design reviews
mine was the result of a question to a CER person, I should have said the the CER documentation simply envisages a two way communications medium , ESB networks intends to use GSM for the initial smart meter rollout , because there is no other practical way to do this ( as its a voluntary rollout)_
The point in all this is that the new " phased approach" is really designed to allow Ireland to just slip under the wire of European smart metering requirements
in reality according to the CER it could be 2023-2025 before we see potential smart meter /smart home interaction
The CER system is also a " thin design " in that most data will come from the internet to the house and not from the Meter, given there isnt a proposed standard from the presentation of ToU tarrifs, I see great fun ahead
(* i do a lot of IoT work )0 -
sorry ,all this is " marketing speak "
Nothing Dimplex has, interfaces to smart meters , thats the point
Quantum differs from other storage heaters in that it dynamically varies " recharge " time , but nowhere does it use dynamic tarrif information, it requires the user to program this stuff in manually
( I know this for a fact, there is not smart meter interface , largely because the EU vision suggest Zigbee and as yet has not defined a standard protocol for relying the information digitally )
but sure it will all be there by 2025!!!!!!!!, right
noteAt the heart of the project is the Glen Dimplex-developed Smart Electric Thermal Storage System (SETS) which links back to a platform developed by Intel which in turn connects each home to the grid, allowing the electricity provider to communicate directly with the home-heating system and alerting it when excess renewable energy is available.
Yes its a research project, there is no commercial product, the whole project falls under my generic comment of " microprocessor do wonder !!"0 -
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There is no real point in the dimplex (or similar) product interfacing to the smart meter. The smart meter doesn't 'know' the day-ahead or intra-day price. You can't base the scheduling on anything the meter knows. You might use the meter for signalling, sure, but you could also use some other infrastructure.0
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Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 22029
BoatMad, I've explained this already, but you seemed to have missed it or ignored it!
Your smart devices (such as you EV) won't talk to the smart meter, instead they will talk directly to the servers of your electricity company to see what the cost of electricity for the next 30 minutes is and charge based on that info.
Smart meters will work, by recording how much electricity you use in a 30 minute block. Separately your electricity company will advertise a certain per kwh rate for each 30 minute block. The smart meter doesn't have any info on the rate, instead the meter uploads your usage in 30 minute blocks to the electricity companies server, once a day, where they will then combine the data with the advertised rate to work out your bill.
So let me give you a real world example.
- You come home at 6pm and plug your car in, your car "talks" to your electric companies servers and they tell it that the rate for the next 30 minutes is 20c per kwh. Your car says, nah, I'll wait.
- 6:30 your car asks again, now it says it will be 18c/kwh, again the car doesn't start yet,
etc. etc.
- 11pm comes and the car asks again, the electric company says it will now be 8c/kwh for the next 30 minutes. The car goes, great and starts charging for 30 minutes.
- 11:30pm the car asks again and your electric company says that the next 30 minutes will still be 7c/kwh and your car continues to charge and so on throughout the night.
Strictly speaking your smart meter is not directly involved. Your smart devices will connect to the electric companies cloud servers to get the per kwh charge information.
Behind the scenes the smart meter is indirectly involved, as it is recording what you actually used in 30 minute chunks and then later that is uploaded to the electric companies servers and used to work out what you actually owe.
For instance it might say that you used 1kwh between 11pm and 11:30pm and 1.5kwh between 11:30 and 12 and will match that info with the advertised rates for those time slot ((.08 x 1) + (.07 x 1.5)).
Point is, the smart meters don't actually have to be two way for this to work. Your smart devices don't need to talk to the smart meter.
Though I do note that they seem to be specifying two way comms for the smart meters, so that they can be disabled for smart PAYG services.0 -
BoatMad, I've explained this already, but you seemed to have missed it or ignored it!
Your smart devices (such as you EV) won't talk to the smart meter, instead they will talk directly to the servers of your electricity company to see what the cost of electricity for the next 30 minutes is and charge based on that info.
Smart meters will work, by recording how much electricity you use in a 30 minute block. Separately your electricity company will advertise a certain per kwh rate for each 30 minute block. The smart meter doesn't have any info on the rate, instead the meter uploads your usage in 30 minute blocks to the electricity companies server, once a day, where they will then combine the data with the advertised rate to work out your bill.
So let me give you a real world example.
- You come home at 6pm and plug your car in, your car "talks" to your electric companies servers and they tell it that the rate for the next 30 minutes is 20c per kwh. Your car says, nah, I'll wait.
- 6:30 your car asks again, now it says it will be 18c/kwh, again the car doesn't start yet,
etc. etc.
- 11pm comes and the car asks again, the electric company says it will now be 8c/kwh for the next 30 minutes. The car goes, great and starts charging for 30 minutes.
- 11:30pm the car asks again and your electric company says that the next 30 minutes will still be 7c/kwh and your car continues to charge and so on throughout the night.
Strictly speaking your smart meter is not directly involved. Your smart devices will connect to the electric companies cloud servers to get the per kwh charge information.
Behind the scenes the smart meter is indirectly involved, as it is recording what you actually used in 30 minute chunks and then later that is uploaded to the electric companies servers and used to work out what you actually owe.
For instance it might say that you used 1kwh between 11pm and 11:30pm and 1.5kwh between 11:30 and 12 and will match that info with the advertised rates for those time slot ((.08 x 1) + (.07 x 1.5)).
Point is, the smart meters don't actually have to be two way for this to work. Your smart devices don't need to talk to the smart meter.
Though I do note that they seem to be specifying two way comms for the smart meters, so that they can be disabled for smart PAYG services.
The nonsense of this example demonstrates why smarts don't help cars.
The car has a given time in which to recharge, because its owner needs it ready for 7am .
The car can't go " naw " let's not charge in this time slot , because the net effect could be that it has to charge in the dearest slots simply because it's run out of available time.
ToU tariffs are formulated on the basis that consumption devices do not consume large parts of the 24 hour day drawing a very significant % of the house MIC. EVs are actually unsuited to 30 minute ToU tarriffs unless EV charging is a a small fraction of the MIC , i.e. The house has a large MIC and the car has a quick , ie powerful,charger.
Your example of course overlooks some issues
there is no internet standard to communicate such tariffs to smart devices.
Since the remote server cannot initiate a session with a GSM device , the process by which two way commands are sent actualkybis a form of simplex communication. The SM polls the servers and in doing so , reads configuration data , one of which is to activate the supply or disconnect it etc.
It then carries out its instructions and drops the gsm session
( this is why the leaf app takes so long to respond , to wake up your leaf, they have to send it a text message, which then forces the GSM unit to begin a GSM session, the propagation of the text trigger from the japan mobile server to Ireland can take minutes0 -
We use day ahead pricing , so the price is known 24 hours in advance.BoatMad, I've explained this already, but you seemed to have missed it or ignored it!
Your smart devices (such as you EV) won't talk to the smart meter, instead they will talk directly to the servers of your electricity company to see what the cost of electricity for the next 30 minutes is and charge based on that info.
Smart meters will work, by recording how much electricity you use in a 30 minute block. Separately your electricity company will advertise a certain per kwh rate for each 30 minute block. The smart meter doesn't have any info on the rate, instead the meter uploads your usage in 30 minute blocks to the electricity companies server, once a day, where they will then combine the data with the advertised rate to work out your bill.
So let me give you a real world example.
- You come home at 6pm and plug your car in, your car "talks" to your electric companies servers and they tell it that the rate for the next 30 minutes is 20c per kwh. Your car says, nah, I'll wait.
- 6:30 your car asks again, now it says it will be 18c/kwh, again the car doesn't start yet,
etc. etc.
- 11pm comes and the car asks again, the electric company says it will now be 8c/kwh for the next 30 minutes. The car goes, great and starts charging for 30 minutes.
- 11:30pm the car asks again and your electric company says that the next 30 minutes will still be 7c/kwh and your car continues to charge and so on throughout the night.
Strictly speaking your smart meter is not directly involved. Your smart devices will connect to the electric companies cloud servers to get the per kwh charge information.
Behind the scenes the smart meter is indirectly involved, as it is recording what you actually used in 30 minute chunks and then later that is uploaded to the electric companies servers and used to work out what you actually owe.
For instance it might say that you used 1kwh between 11pm and 11:30pm and 1.5kwh between 11:30 and 12 and will match that info with the advertised rates for those time slot ((.08 x 1) + (.07 x 1.5)).
Point is, the smart meters don't actually have to be two way for this to work. Your smart devices don't need to talk to the smart meter.
Though I do note that they seem to be specifying two way comms for the smart meters, so that they can be disabled for smart PAYG services.
Here’s tomorrow’s pricing http://www.sem-o.com/Pages/MDB_SMP_EA_EUR.aspx
Short term load forecasting is pretty accurate and allows for this0 -
We use day ahead pricing , so the price is known 24 hours in advance.BoatMad, I've explained this already, but you seemed to have missed it or ignored it!
Your smart devices (such as you EV) won't talk to the smart meter, instead they will talk directly to the servers of your electricity company to see what the cost of electricity for the next 30 minutes is and charge based on that info.
Smart meters will work, by recording how much electricity you use in a 30 minute block. Separately your electricity company will advertise a certain per kwh rate for each 30 minute block. The smart meter doesn't have any info on the rate, instead the meter uploads your usage in 30 minute blocks to the electricity companies server, once a day, where they will then combine the data with the advertised rate to work out your bill.
So let me give you a real world example.
- You come home at 6pm and plug your car in, your car "talks" to your electric companies servers and they tell it that the rate for the next 30 minutes is 20c per kwh. Your car says, nah, I'll wait.
- 6:30 your car asks again, now it says it will be 18c/kwh, again the car doesn't start yet,
etc. etc.
- 11pm comes and the car asks again, the electric company says it will now be 8c/kwh for the next 30 minutes. The car goes, great and starts charging for 30 minutes.
- 11:30pm the car asks again and your electric company says that the next 30 minutes will still be 7c/kwh and your car continues to charge and so on throughout the night.
Strictly speaking your smart meter is not directly involved. Your smart devices will connect to the electric companies cloud servers to get the per kwh charge information.
Behind the scenes the smart meter is indirectly involved, as it is recording what you actually used in 30 minute chunks and then later that is uploaded to the electric companies servers and used to work out what you actually owe.
For instance it might say that you used 1kwh between 11pm and 11:30pm and 1.5kwh between 11:30 and 12 and will match that info with the advertised rates for those time slot ((.08 x 1) + (.07 x 1.5)).
Point is, the smart meters don't actually have to be two way for this to work. Your smart devices don't need to talk to the smart meter.
Though I do note that they seem to be specifying two way comms for the smart meters, so that they can be disabled for smart PAYG services.
Here’s tomorrow’s pricing http://www.sem-o.com/Pages/MDB_SMP_EA_EUR.aspx
Short term load forecasting is pretty accurate and allows for this0 -
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22029
ted1 thanks, that would simplify the process even further as your EV or other smart device only needs to connect to the electric companies servers once a day to get the rates for the next 24 hours.The nonsense of this example demonstrates why smarts don't help cars.
The car has a given time in which to recharge, because its owner needs it ready for 7am .
The car can't go " naw " let's not charge in this time slot , because the net effect could be that it has to charge in the dearest slots simply because it's run out of available time.
No it won't. It really is very easy. So say you tell your car to always have a 100% (say 30kwh) charge by 7am. You come home at 6pm with 20kwh left and plug in. Your cars onboard computer knows what the charging tariffs for the next 24 hours are and it sees that you need another 10kwh and that will take about 4 hours to do. It will then pick the cheapest 8 x 30 minutes blocks to get you that 100% charge before 7am
Simple.
Of course you can kind of do something like this with night rate meter at the moment. But this offers even greater granularity. Rather then have a single night rate, you could have different rates for each 30 minute block at night and your car can choose to charge within the cheapest ones that suit itthere is no internet standard to communicate such tariffs to smart devices.
What do you mean by "internet standard"? It will work over the standard internet IPv4 or IPv6, either over your in home wifi or over the cars own GSM connection. All very standard.
If you mean they need to define a particular web service API for this. Then sure, but that is pretty trivial, this is my bread and butter, I do it every day!Since the remote server cannot initiate a session with a GSM device , the process by which two way commands are sent actualkybis a form of simplex communication. The SM polls the servers and in doing so , reads configuration data , one of which is to activate the supply or disconnect it etc.
It then carries out its instructions and drops the gsm session
( this is why the leaf app takes so long to respond , to wake up your leaf, they have to send it a text message, which then forces the GSM unit to begin a GSM session, the propagation of the text trigger from the japan mobile server to Ireland can take minutes
You seem to be caught up in the idea of the smart devices (including EV) needing to "talk" to the smart meter. They don't!
They just need to communicate once every 24 hours with the electric companies web servers to get the rates for the next 24 hours and then base their decision to charge or not based on that info and how much charge they need. Strictly speaking this doesn't involve the smart meter at all. The smart meter simply records what you actually use (in 30 minute blocks) and communicates that info to the electric company servers which combine the usage data with the advertised charging rate.
How the smart meters actually communicate is actually irrelevant to all this.0 -
Update to OP
% Wind vs Demand from 4-8am
Date|% Wind|Low|High|gCO2/kW|Low|High|Total Wind %
28/7-26/8|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
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Saw this line in one of the Farming Threads.
(Did the same here last year, transformer upgraded from 14kva to 33kva. Main fuse is 130A instead of 80. I have the transformer dedicated to the farm yard and it's 70 meters from the parlour.)
Now that would be the business for charging two EVs.0 -
Three-phase would be better though ( if it was reasonable price )
( thinking of a heatpump too )0 -
Water John wrote: »Saw this line in one of the Farming Threads.
(Did the same here last year, transformer upgraded from 14kva to 33kva. Main fuse is 130A instead of 80. I have the transformer dedicated to the farm yard and it's 70 meters from the parlour.)
Now that would be the business for charging two EVs.
The price is the issue there!
The above example is basically a commercial customer so they can justify the spend. Most houses have a 60A so an upgrade to 80A (€1150) will be enough for the majority even with 2 EV's.0 -
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They just need to communicate once every 24 hours with the electric companies web servers to get the rates for the next 24 hours and then base their decision to charge or not based on that info and how much charge they need. Strictly speaking this doesn't involve the smart meter at all. The smart meter simply records what you actually use (in 30 minute blocks) and communicates that info to the electric company servers which combine the usage data with the advertised charging rate.
Given there no data protocols/standards to exchange this info and in fact ToU tariffs are 30 minute based. Im not holding my breath waiting for the Next generation Leaf to communicate with Energias servers, !!!!!. We have actually no idea what is going to made available via web servers, because there is no published detail
It will be anything up to 2025 before we see final shape of this
Note that the decision to go for " thin " smart meters" which do not hold the tarrifs, was taken by the CER and is not consistent around Europe0 -
Musk building a large battery storage facility in south Australia.
100Mw battery, to be built in 100 days. Cost $50m.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/sep/30/elon-musks-big-battery-for-south-australia-already-half-complete
What differential would be needed to finance it?
It could also be used for grid balancing, at a fee. Cheaper than pumped storage.0 -
Update to OP
% Wind vs Demand from 4-8am
Date|% Wind|Low|High|gCO2/kW|Low|High|Total Wind %
28/7-26/8|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
Big jump in the last 30 days to 36%!!0 -
They just need to communicate once every 24 hours with the electric companies web servers to get the rates for the next 24 hours and then base their decision to charge or not based on that info and how much charge they need. Strictly speaking this doesn't involve the smart meter at all. The smart meter simply records what you actually use (in 30 minute blocks) and communicates that info to the electric company servers which combine the usage data with the advertised charging rate.
I've nearly 30 years in embedded systems , and Iot ( when it was called M2M ) the availability of API standards in this area is appalling slow and disjointed. I don't expect my 2018, 2019 or any EV in the next 5 years to connect to any energy demand system. In fact the CRU in effect sees 2025 as its final implementation date
Just as I foresee pay by weight refuse collection, resulting in people's bills going up and not down ( on average ) , I fully expect smart metering as purely an industry incentive, resulting in more expensive electricity for the consumer.
By the time any EV to energy tariff server connections are resolved, my car will fly and be fully autonomous and I won't own it anyway0 -
Question: What happens if you live in an apartment or one of the many modern properties where you don't have a driveway or even parking directly outside your own home? How would you charge your car?
It's a serious question. I don't own an EV myself but will in the future. I have my own driveway but I see properties on a daily basis with IMO nowhere to put a charging point0 -
Question: What happens if you live in an apartment or one of the many modern properties where you don't have a driveway or even parking directly outside your own home? How would you charge your car?
It's a serious question. I don't own an EV myself but will in the future. I have my own driveway but I see properties on a daily basis with IMO nowhere to put a charging point
It's a current and serious issue, for which , there are no easy answers. With the new planning provisions , certain new apartment blocks will not have to facilitate cars at all.
For new builds with car parks , there is a need for national legislation, currently it's on a planning authority by planning authority basis.
Other then that , there is an argument that with the low mileage urban drivers do, and the increasing range of the batteries, means that such drivers will simply only charge occasionally at relevant publc facilities0 -
Update to OP
% Wind vs Demand from 4-8am
Date|% Wind|Low|High|gCO2/kW|Low|High|Total Wind %
28/7-26/8|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
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Update to OP
% Wind vs Demand from 4-8am
Date|% Wind|Low|High|gCO2/kW|Low|High|Total Wind %
28/7-26/8|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30
Something I don't have an explanation for in this months data is that the % wind is a good bit better this month than last month but the gCO2/kW is worse!
Not sure why/how that is. Obviously something to do with the remainder of the fuel mix.
Anyone in the know?0 -
Unless on of the Gas Generators was off line, with Moneypoint or peat taking up the slack?0
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Because High wind pushes the cleaner plants off the grid. So the mix is Wind +Coal and possible peat.
If you look at the load in the middle of the night you’ll see that as the load decreases to about 2GW the CO2/kWh increases. So if you charge at night you have a higher CO2 footprint than those charging during the day0
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