Dublin North Quays - now double bus lane

bk · 24-08-2017 01:52PM

Dublinflyer wrote: »

I know people who could do the same easily but choose to drive and nothing will convince them to use any other way to get in.

Dublinflyer wrote: »

Banning things is not the answer.

Clearly it is the answer, as the people from the first quote will then have no other choice then.

Dublinflyer wrote: »

That just gives people a reason to go on the march.

Empty threat. Only 600 people actually drive on the quays. Wouldn't make for much of a march.

And the counter march would have almost 10,000 bus users who use the quays, plus another almost 600 cyclists!

People massively overestimate how many people actually drive into the city and their importance to the city. They are very much in the minority.

schemingbohemia · 24-08-2017 02:03PM

Dublinflyer wrote: »

Not sure if I would put much faith on a report that was written in 2002 by a cycling advocacy group referencing data that's almost 17 years old from London. Traffic there is worse than ever and that's with a congestion charge, £11.50, lots of cycle lanes and a very extensive and relatively cheap to use underground system that links in with other transport services.

I work in the city center by the quays and get the bus every day, but I am lucky that I can do that but Not everyone can. I know people who could do the same easily but choose to drive and nothing will convince them to use any other way to get in. Banning things is not the answer. That just gives people a reason to go on the march. Give cars a lower priority to public transport and make using a car a much less desirable way to get into the city. That way the bus and bikes can move quickly and safely and private car drivers can suffer in silence.

There are plenty of other studies that show that this is exactly what happens, car drivers eventually get the message and use other modes of transport.
For Paris see here
https://www.fastcompany.com/3064157/when-paris-closed-a-major-road-to-cars-half-its-traffic-just-disappeared
The problem is that this dissipation cannot be modelled, planners know it will happen but can't predict where or by how much, the model will not show dissipation at all and will presume that all the current cars will keep going just using other routes.

BonnieSituation · 24-08-2017 02:08PM

There's an irony that morning rush hour car users would march.

Dublinflyer · 24-08-2017 02:23PM

schemingbohemia wrote: »

There are plenty of other studies that show that this is exactly what happens, car drivers eventually get the message and use other modes of transport.
For Paris see here
https://www.fastcompany.com/3064157/when-paris-closed-a-major-road-to-cars-half-its-traffic-just-disappeared
The problem is that this dissipation cannot be modelled, planners know it will happen but can't predict where or by how much, the model will not show dissipation at all and will presume that all the current cars will keep going just using other routes.

Yep and Paris has an extensive underground system that is serviced by other public transport, that's the common factor for these cities. The problem here in Dublin is that the public transport system is completely disjointed and a real struggle if you live any real distance from the city. There is also a tendency by the DCC to back down and turn a great idea to something less useful. The original plan was to have a left turn only from the quays, that would would have been much better than what they have now.

bk · 24-08-2017 02:31PM

Dublinflyer wrote: »

Yep and Paris has an extensive underground system that is serviced by other public transport, that's the common factor for these cities. The problem here in Dublin is that the public transport system is completely disjointed and a real struggle if you live any real distance from the city.

In fairness though the population of Paris is about 10 times larger then Dublin, so not quiet comparable.

Dublinflyer wrote: »

There is also a tendency by the DCC to back down and turn a great idea to something less useful. The original plan was to have a left turn only from the quays, that would would have been much better than what they have now.

Unfortunately just the reality of our political system and the power that the car park lobby and the wider car industry has here.

Dublinflyer · 24-08-2017 02:40PM

bk wrote: »

In fairness though the population of Paris is about 10 times larger then Dublin, so not quiet comparable. .

Agreed, that's why I am not comparing them. Same for London, oh if we only had an underground here in Dublin. Even a simple one like Rome has, two lines that meet somewhere in the middle.

bk wrote: »

Unfortunately just the reality of our political system and the power that the car park lobby and the wider car industry has here.

It's a bit sad that it's that way. Hopefully in a few months time once this has settled a left turn will be the only option.

I honestly do not know how someone could drive into the city every day. The timings must just be impossible and you are either way too early or late. Even on the worst day of the year the bus makes a bit more progress.

maximoose · 24-08-2017 02:47PM

bk wrote: »

Empty threat. Only 600 people actually drive on the quays. Wouldn't make for much of a march.

I've seen this 8000 per hour on the bus vs 600 motorists a couple of times, would you have a link for where the numbers came from? Google not helping me

BonnieSituation · 24-08-2017 02:54PM

Dublinflyer wrote: »

Agreed, that's why I am not comparing them. Same for London, oh if we only had an underground here in Dublin. Even a simple one like Rome has, two lines that meet somewhere in the middle.

It's a bit sad that it's that way. Hopefully in a few months time once this has settled a left turn will be the only option.

I honestly do not know how someone could drive into the city every day. The timings must just be impossible and you are either way too early or late. Even on the worst day of the year the bus makes a bit more progress.

You couldn't pay me to drive to work.

I used to work off the Nangor Road and live in Lucan. I used to have to drive. It wasn't that bad of a journey but it used to drive me spare getting into that car every morning.

bk · 24-08-2017 02:55PM

maximoose wrote: »

I've seen this 8000 per hour on the bus vs 600 motorists a couple of times, would you have a link for where the numbers came from? Google not helping me

It was from the DCC/NTA report into the changes on the quays. They give detailed breakdowns on the number of vehicles using different parts of the quays prior to the changes.

Dublinflyer · 24-08-2017 03:19PM

This gave me a laugh

https://m0.joe.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/18103446/LUAS.jpg

BonnieSituation · 24-08-2017 03:20PM

Dublinflyer wrote: »

This gave me a laugh

https://m0.joe.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/18103446/LUAS.jpg

It's as old as the hills. But if people knew why this happened they wouldn't laugh!

Marlay · 24-08-2017 03:25PM

Dublinflyer wrote: »

I honestly do not know how someone could drive into the city every day. The timings must just be impossible and you are either way too early or late. Even on the worst day of the year the bus makes a bit more progress.

Depends on where you're coming from. I spent years commuting by bus from the south-west of Dublin and the bus just sat in the traffic the same as the car drivers. There isn't the space for proper bus lanes, just pointless un-connected sections that always end just as the worst traffic starts.

I've looked at various options for where I am now and overall journey time (door to door) is very nearly the same regardless of mode.

24-08-2017 03:35PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's as old as the hills. But if people knew why this happened they wouldn't laugh!

So... why did it happen then?

AndrewJRenko · 24-08-2017 03:46PM

Sleeper12 wrote: »

These are exclusively for commercial vehicles but unfortunately private vehicles take these spaces from us

These are exclusively for commercial vehicles while loading or unloading but unfortunately some tradesmen think they can use them while they are on the job.

BonnieSituation · 24-08-2017 04:19PM

Natalia Scruffy Shortbread wrote: »

So... why did it happen then?

NIMBYISM, Moronic politicians, moronic electorate. Lack of foresight.

The usual Irish things.

Anyone got the dart plan from the late 1970s handy?

beauf · 24-08-2017 04:25PM

Marlay wrote: »

Depends on where you're coming from. I spent years commuting by bus from the south-west of Dublin and the bus just sat in the traffic the same as the car drivers. There isn't the space for proper bus lanes, just pointless un-connected sections that always end just as the worst traffic starts.

I've looked at various options for where I am now and overall journey time (door to door) is very nearly the same regardless of mode.

If you sitting in traffic use something that isn't. Electric bicycle or moped etc.

Stephen15 · 24-08-2017 04:52PM

Dublinflyer wrote: »

Agreed, that's why I am not comparing them. Same for London, oh if we only had an underground here in Dublin. Even a simple one like Rome has, two lines that meet somewhere in the middle.

Rome has 4m Dublin has 1.5m at the most

24-08-2017 04:55PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

NIMBYISM, Moronic politicians, moronic electorate. Lack of foresight.

The usual Irish things.

Anyone got the dart plan from the late 1970s handy?

Ah right I knew all that, thought you meant there was some proper reason. You have to laugh at that stuff or you'd cry otherwise.

Spanish Eyes · 24-08-2017 05:02PM

Was down North Quays today walking for a change. I usually take the bus.

Anyway, it seems to be working quite well.

Apart from those cars turning right on O'Connell Bridge and not a traffic cop in sight, and those delivery vans still stopping in the inner bus lane. But overall it looks good.

I didn't realise that the South Quay at Aston has a double bus lane aswell. But there were three vans parked with hazards on outside Super Valu. No tickets, no enforcement.

Will take a while for it to sink in, but maybe the softly softly approach is the right one for now, and then after a month or so, slap on the points and the fines.

Probably the best traffic management plan in central Dublin for a long while. Delighted for the bus/cycle commuters on that corridor.

Early days though, we have to wait for Luas.

Brian CivilEng · 24-08-2017 05:06PM

maximoose wrote: »

I've seen this 8000 per hour on the bus vs 600 motorists a couple of times, would you have a link for where the numbers came from? Google not helping me

Page 7 of this report:
https://consultation.dublincity.ie/traffic-and-transport/traffic-management-changes-north-and-south-quays/supporting_documents/Traffic%20Management%20changes%20North%20and%20South%20Quays.pdf

Phil.x · 24-08-2017 10:08PM

Seaswimmer wrote: »

I am sure there are tradesmen living in the city centre. They should see a big increase in business so??

Have you ever seen a toolbox let alone carry one, never mind the lengths of copper piping.

25-08-2017 02:08AM

Phil.x wrote: »

Have you ever seen a toolbox let alone carry one, never mind the lengths of copper piping.

How did you manage before? I'd wager there was rarely convenient parking for callouts which means that you had to contend with this issue.

No matter, ill winds and all that. For every one trade who turns down a job, there's several more who will take it.

Who knows, maybe it will force some plumbers to become more efficient. I mean, how many tools do you REALLY need to take to sort out a blocked toilet

They make toolboxes on wheels too

jimmycrackcorm · 25-08-2017 02:36AM

If this change continues to be as beneficial when normal rush hour traffic resumes in September then it will be a wake-up call to doing similar prioritization for other pinch points around the city.

People complain that they need cars to commute because public transport is so bad, yet as Dublin is largely a bus driven transport system, the reason it is bad is due to being held up by cars. Prioritizing buses so they don't get held up like this will only lead to increased demand driven usage and expansion. There are good arguments for the likes of MN but from a cost and practical perspective, providing the ability to have buses travel as freely as possible is the most effective improvement for the lives of thousands upon thousands of people.

Phil.x · 25-08-2017 07:45AM

12months time bus lanes will be gone.

Phil.x · 25-08-2017 07:47AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How did you manage before? I'd wager there was rarely convenient parking for callouts which means that you had to contend with this issue.

No matter, ill winds and all that. For every one trade who turns down a job, there's several more who will take it.

Who knows, maybe it will force some plumbers to become more efficient. I mean, how many tools do you REALLY need to take to sort out a blocked toilet

They make toolboxes on wheels too

I'm no plumber, but are you really going to call one for a blocked toilet?? Really!!

Sleeper12 · 25-08-2017 07:59AM

NuMarvel wrote:

If the issue is getting parking close to the job, then how do the recent changes make things worse? I don't think there's been any changes to loading bays, but I'm open to correction on that.

The new layout makes things worse because of the long, long traffic jams it is creating.
Some commercial vehicles need to get to places like Bachelor's walk temple bar etc. Bad as it is now, we haven't a chance of servicing these areas in September.
It's not a big deal for me as we no longer service these areas.
What would help is towards let commercial vehicles use the second bus lane between 11 and 3pm.
Overall I think the second bus lane is a good idea. Not thought out correctly but still a good idea.

LeinsterDub · 25-08-2017 08:00AM

Phil.x wrote: »

12months time bus lanes will be gone.

Every single one of them?

Phil.x · 25-08-2017 08:01AM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Every single one of them?

Hopefully

Dublinflyer · 25-08-2017 08:23AM

Stephen15 wrote: »

Rome has 4m Dublin has 1.5m at the most

I am not sure what looking at one thing like population of a city has anything to do with traffic in Dublin. Every city is different and if people stop comparing Dublin to other places and just look at Dublin and it's issues solutions will arrive quicker. Rome is about twice the size of Dublin but by the logic here just because we have a smaller population than cities with an underground we don't need one?

I think what has happened on the quays is good, it could be better but instead of just focusing on the city center they should look at the while county of Dublin. This change will cause issues in other areas but there is not even a plan to look at these that I have heard off. The luas will make things better, but there should be park and ride facilities at the end of each line, that are very cheap and plenty. The broadstone end could catch a huge number of people coming in from the west by car and take them into the city in half the time but from what I can see on the plans there is not much in the way of parking there. Also at €4 a day plus your luas ticket it's not exactly attractive to people financially.

BonnieSituation · 25-08-2017 08:26AM

Phil.x wrote: »

Hopefully

Only hopefully?

I thought they WOULD be gone. Hmmm... I think you need to think that through.

---

First time I've managed to be awake going down the quays this week.

It's working very well. Even the sequencing letting cars through seems to calm the whole thing. ie. Drivers know they'll be moving soon enough.

Garda car on eastside of OCB so I'm guessing there was a guard in the middle on the island. Couldn't see.over.

Hopefully that shared that eejit ahead of my bus who thought he was going to be turning right!

Dublin North Quays - now double bus lane

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