The Sub 3 Support Thread

djemba djemba · 15-08-2017 03:32PM

Looking for a bit of advice. My marathon is October 1st in Cologne.

My plan was to go with the 3 hour pacer up to 32km and kick off myself for the last 10km. Now however after the rock and roll half marathon last week I am not sure would I do better going of by myself. I did the rock and roll half in 1.21.00. I also did a 10km recently at 3.45/km pace. I am not sure if I have the discipline/ability to keep myself at steady all the way around.

noelearly · 15-08-2017 04:28PM

djemba djemba wrote: »

Looking for a bit of advice. My marathon is October 1st in Cologne.

My plan was to go with the 3 hour pacer up to 32km and kick off myself for the last 10km. Now however after the rock and roll half marathon last week I am not sure would I do better going of by myself. I did the rock and roll half in 1.21.00. I also did a 10km recently at 3.45/km pace. I am not sure if I have the discipline/ability to keep myself at steady all the way around.

If I was in that shape I would prob go on my own. Would you consider going with the pacer until halfway and then kick on. Negative splits seem to be the way to go. You will have loads I'm the store for the second half.

Duanington · 15-08-2017 05:02PM

djemba djemba wrote: »

Looking for a bit of advice. My marathon is October 1st in Cologne.

My plan was to go with the 3 hour pacer up to 32km and kick off myself for the last 10km. Now however after the rock and roll half marathon last week I am not sure would I do better going of by myself. I did the rock and roll half in 1.21.00. I also did a 10km recently at 3.45/km pace. I am not sure if I have the discipline/ability to keep myself at steady all the way around.

I was in a similar position last year running Berlin - I wouldn't rely on pacers to be perfectly honest, I ran 2.58 last year and never got anywhere near them !

You could aim to go through halfway in 1.28 or so and play the second half by ear? Maybe set yourself a target for the 35k mark?

Sounds like you're in good shape with quite a bit to go, plenty of time left for you to come up with a race day strategy.

noelearly · 15-08-2017 08:28PM

Duanington wrote: »

I was in a similar position last year running Berlin - I wouldn't rely on pacers to be perfectly honest, I ran 2.58 last year and never got anywhere near them !

You could aim to go through halfway in 1.28 or so and play the second half by ear? Maybe set yourself a target for the 35k mark?

Sounds like you're in good shape with quite a bit to go, plenty of time left for you to come up with a race day strategy.

Really?? Was thinking of going with the pacer myself. Did they go too fast. What Corral did you start from last year. Think I'm looking at corral D myself judged on previous times.

overpronator · 15-08-2017 10:31PM

I went off at 2.54 pace in Berlin last yr (didnt finish at that pace but thats for another day). 3hr Pacer was ahead of me after 5k.

Theres no excuse for not having discipline in a marathon. Have your goal pace and stick to it, youll know at 20 miles of it was soft or not but the point is to get to 20. Be methodical.

djemba djemba · 16-08-2017 02:29PM

noelearly wrote: »

If I was in that shape I would prob go on my own. Would you consider going with the pacer until halfway and then kick on. Negative splits seem to be the way to go. You will have loads I'm the store for the second half.

Duanington wrote: »

I was in a similar position last year running Berlin - I wouldn't rely on pacers to be perfectly honest, I ran 2.58 last year and never got anywhere near them !

You could aim to go through halfway in 1.28 or so and play the second half by ear? Maybe set yourself a target for the 35k mark?

Sounds like you're in good shape with quite a bit to go, plenty of time left for you to come up with a race day strategy.

Thanks for the replies. Plenty to consider of the next while.

ultrapercy · 16-08-2017 03:45PM

djemba djemba wrote: »

Looking for a bit of advice. My marathon is October 1st in Cologne.

My plan was to go with the 3 hour pacer up to 32km and kick off myself for the last 10km. Now however after the rock and roll half marathon last week I am not sure would I do better going of by myself. I did the rock and roll half in 1.21.00. I also did a 10km recently at 3.45/km pace. I am not sure if I have the discipline/ability to keep myself at steady all the way around.

You are capable of 2.50 low or better. Forget the pacers and run your own race. Learn your pace with medium long mp runs. Good luck.

squinn2912 · 18-08-2017 11:35PM

ultrapercy;104395894

djemba djemba wrote: »

Looking for a bit of advice. My marathon is October 1st in Cologne.

My plan was to go with the 3 hour pacer up to 32km and kick off myself for the last 10km. Now however after the rock and roll half marathon last week I am not sure would I do better going of by myself. I did the rock and roll half in 1.21.00. I also did a 10km recently at 3.45/km pace. I am not sure if I have the discipline/ability to keep myself at steady all the way around.

You are capable of 2.50 low or better. Forget the pacers and run your own race. Learn your pace with medium long mp runs. Good luck.

ultrapercy wrote: »

djemba djemba wrote: »

Looking for a bit of advice. My marathon is October 1st in Cologne.

My plan was to go with the 3 hour pacer up to 32km and kick off myself for the last 10km. Now however after the rock and roll half marathon last week I am not sure would I do better going of by myself. I did the rock and roll half in 1.21.00. I also did a 10km recently at 3.45/km pace. I am not sure if I have the discipline/ability to keep myself at steady all the way around.

You are capable of 2.50 low or better. Forget the pacers and run your own race. Learn your pace with medium long mp runs. Good luck.

Could you give an idea of what a typical training week is like for you? Where does the mp medium/long run fit in? I'm 2:58 trying to design a programme to take on sub 2:50 next spring. Just had a 3 month lay off.

conavitzky · 19-08-2017 10:27AM

ultrapercy wrote: »

You are capable of 2.50 low or better. Forget the pacers and run your own race. Learn your pace with medium long mp runs. Good luck.

I agree with Ultrapercy. Allow yourself to dictate your pace. I ran 1:21:30 in rnr half last year and ran 2:46 in DCM. I ran 1:21:05 in rnr 2015 and 2:54 in dcm. RnR is a tight course (net uphill with hard finish) Sunday Long runs up to 22 miles. Midweek medium long run up to 24k with portions at mp (4x5k with 3mins easy, 400m half marathon pace 1200m 10-15 secs slower than mp continuous for 20k) are some of the sessions i did midweek that worked for me. The change of pace session i really enjoyed as it broke the monotony ofthe run. It also helped for DCM as there are sections where you will run slower than mp and other sections where you need to run faster than mp due to the undulating course.
Dont be afraid to go beyond what you think you are capable of. If you have a good aerobic base and plenty of long runs id be definitely shooting sub 2:50.

squinn2912 · 19-08-2017 05:34PM

I like that session particularly mixing up the pace. I had been running 10-12 miles at half mp once per week. one session of mile repeats and then the rest was easy pace. Would you typically add or change anything there?

conavitzky · 19-08-2017 05:43PM

squinn2912 wrote: »

I like that session particularly mixing up the pace. I had been running 10-12 miles at half mp once per week. one session of mile repeats and then the rest was easy pace. Would you typically add or change anything there?

If you are running at true half mp that's one hell of a session which I personally wouldn't do or be capable of every week. I wouldn't be going any further than 10-12k at LT (could be 3:38-3:50 for someone in or around sub 3 pace depending on the runner- I'm around 3:42 pace or thereabouts).
I also never did miles late on (12 weeks left) in my two marathons. I just concentrated on continuous rubs with changes of pace within the run . I dropped the LT run about 6 weeks out to concentrate on MP. Kept some 100 m strides to keep leg turnover.
Il qualify this by saying this is what worked for me!

noelearly · 19-08-2017 11:28PM

conavitzky wrote: »

I agree with Ultrapercy. Allow yourself to dictate your pace. I ran 1:21:30 in rnr half last year and ran 2:46 in DCM. I ran 1:21:05 in rnr 2015 and 2:54 in dcm. RnR is a tight course (net uphill with hard finish) Sunday Long runs up to 22 miles. Midweek medium long run up to 24k with portions at mp (4x5k with 3mins easy, 400m half marathon pace 1200m 10-15 secs slower than mp continuous for 20k) are some of the sessions i did midweek that worked for me. The change of pace session i really enjoyed as it broke the monotony ofthe run. It also helped for DCM as there are sections where you will run slower than mp and other sections where you need to run faster than mp due to the undulating course.
Dont be afraid to go beyond what you think you are capable of. If you have a good aerobic base and plenty of long runs id be definitely shooting sub 2:50.

That would kill me for the rest of the week. Mightily impressive paces.

conavitzky · 20-08-2017 02:10PM

noelearly wrote: »

That would kill me for the rest of the week. Mightily impressive paces.

You wouldn't be running that every week! You would gradually build to that over 8 weeks or so. Those workouts would be peak mileage workouts. They would also kill me if I done them every week!

squinn2912 · 21-08-2017 08:21AM

conavitzky wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

I like that session particularly mixing up the pace. I had been running 10-12 miles at half mp once per week. one session of mile repeats and then the rest was easy pace. Would you typically add or change anything there?

If you are running at true half mp that's one hell of a session which I personally wouldn't do or be capable of every week. I wouldn't be going any further than 10-12k at LT (could be 3:38-3:50 for someone in or around sub 3 pace depending on the runner- I'm around 3:42 pace or thereabouts).
I also never did miles late on (12 weeks left) in my two marathons. I just concentrated on continuous rubs with changes of pace within the run . I dropped the LT run about 6 weeks out to concentrate on MP. Kept some 100 m strides to keep leg turnover.
Il qualify this by saying this is what worked for me!

I work in miles but it's about 6:30s or thereabouts. That session was on a tuesday, thursday would be 4-6 mile repeats in around 5.50-6.00 and monday, wednesday and friday all easy pace about 8 mm for 4-6 miles, Saturday of course being the long run usually at easy pace 8:20s with the final 5 miles about 7:30s

Djoucer · 21-08-2017 09:34AM

Bit of a how long is a piece of string question.

How tired should you be after 14 miles at MP?

Did 14 miles at MP followed by 7 miles of easy running at weekend.

Found the MP part fairly difficult. The wind didn't help but was hanging on for last few kms. Hoping to do sub 2.50. My overall pace for the MP session was 2.49.30 pace. Legs recovered quickly for the easy 7 miles and was able to hold 5min km pace without a problem.

The session was after an easy weekly of running, 50km or so.

RayCun · 21-08-2017 09:39AM

Djoucer wrote: »

Bit of a how long is a piece of string question.

How tired should you be after 14 miles at MP?

I'd be fairly wrecked

noelearly · 21-08-2017 09:52AM

Clonmel yesterday in 1.23.40. Delighted with that considering I had an awful week with poor runs and a head cold.

This 3 hour thing might be on after all.

Duanington · 21-08-2017 01:30PM

Djoucer wrote: »

Bit of a how long is a piece of string question.

How tired should you be after 14 miles at MP?

Did 14 miles at MP followed by 7 miles of easy running at weekend.

Found the MP part fairly difficult. The wind didn't help but was hanging on for last few kms. Hoping to do sub 2.50. My overall pace for the MP session was 2.49.30 pace. Legs recovered quickly for the easy 7 miles and was able to hold 5min km pace without a problem.

The session was after an easy weekly of running, 50km or so.

14 miles at MP is a big one to be fair.....I would be pretty b*llixed after that

Itziger · 21-08-2017 02:09PM

Djoucer wrote: »

Bit of a how long is a piece of string question.

How tired should you be after 14 miles at MP?

Did 14 miles at MP followed by 7 miles of easy running at weekend.

Found the MP part fairly difficult. The wind didn't help but was hanging on for last few kms. Hoping to do sub 2.50. My overall pace for the MP session was 2.49.30 pace. Legs recovered quickly for the easy 7 miles and was able to hold 5min km pace without a problem.

The session was after an easy weekly of running, 50km or so.

I distinctly remember being fairly wrecked after a 20k MP effort. After that I changed to 3x7k/8k and even a 3x9 that attracted a fair bit of comment in this thread. Don't despair .

squinn2912 · 21-08-2017 10:30PM

I rarely go at MP effort during long runs. Would you guys advise it during a normal training week or would you be better going slower? I've done 4-6 miles at MP but that programme didn't work out well so I abandoned that in my programmes ever since. I prefer to do two hard sessions and run the long run 30 secs to a minute slower than goal pace

noelearly · 22-08-2017 12:23AM

squinn2912 wrote: »

I rarely go at MP effort during long runs. Would you guys advise it during a normal training week or would you be better going slower? I've done 4-6 miles at MP but that programme didn't work out well so I abandoned that in my programmes ever since. I prefer to do two hard sessions and run the long run 30 secs to a minute slower than goal pace

Personally find it very hard to do the MP miles on my own during long runs or even medium runs. I've found myself doing loads of 5 mile races or 5ks with slow warm ups and cool downs good ways of getting in the miles easily do 11/12 miles this way and getting in the necessary speed work.

ger664 · 22-08-2017 01:16AM

Djoucer wrote: »

Bit of a how long is a piece of string question.

How tired should you be after 14 miles at MP?

Did 14 miles at MP followed by 7 miles of easy running at weekend.

Found the MP part fairly difficult. The wind didn't help but was hanging on for last few kms. Hoping to do sub 2.50. My overall pace for the MP session was 2.49.30 pace. Legs recovered quickly for the easy 7 miles and was able to hold 5min km pace without a problem.

The session was after an easy weekly of running, 50km or so.

I think you pretty much nailed it. Have done this without the extra 7 miles afterwards and was wrecked. Its not like you had a 2 week taper into the session, so there was a degree of tiredness in the legs that you wont have on race day.

Djoucer · 22-08-2017 09:54AM

Cheers folks.

Reassuring.

Nothing like your last marathon to make you forget how hard training can be!

RayCun · 22-08-2017 10:20AM

squinn2912 wrote: »

I rarely go at MP effort during long runs. Would you guys advise it during a normal training week or would you be better going slower? I've done 4-6 miles at MP but that programme didn't work out well so I abandoned that in my programmes ever since. I prefer to do two hard sessions and run the long run 30 secs to a minute slower than goal pace

Most training plans will include some long runs that incorporate marathon pace running. Some weeks will be just long and easy, some will include PMP.
It isn't the only way to do it, of course.

finisklin · 02-09-2017 08:54PM

Hi folks,

looking for some help on my training and perhaps reassurance as DCM is closing in.

Doing Daniels 2Q program and up to 70 miles a week.

This program may be too ambitious for me endurance wise to the detriment of speed.

Have a good foundation of mileage built up over the last few years as I enjoy running, all year round.

Recent race times as follows;
HM - 1.29
10k - 40.08
5k - 18.33

My aim for the HM was sub 1.28 and this has questioned my approach.

Completed DCM last year in 3.10.

Goal was to go sub 3, which is too ambitious at this point.

Looking for some guidance - continue on with program or adapt it in favour of developing more speed focussed sessions?

noelearly · 03-09-2017 08:43PM

finisklin wrote: »

Hi folks,

looking for some help on my training and perhaps reassurance as DCM is closing in.

Doing Daniels 2Q program and up to 70 miles a week.

This program may be too ambitious for me endurance wise to the detriment of speed.

Have a good foundation of mileage built up over the last few years as I enjoy running, all year round.

Recent race times as follows;
HM - 1.29
10k - 40.08
5k - 18.33

My aim for the HM was sub 1.28 and this has questioned my approach.

Completed DCM last year in 3.10.

Goal was to go sub 3, which is too ambitious at this point.

Looking for some guidance - continue on with program or adapt it in favour of developing more speed focussed sessions?

I wouldn't say your a million miles away judging by your times. I'm more an advocate of the miles mixed with as little speed as possible in my plans. It's just what's works for me, anymore races coming up??

finisklin · 03-09-2017 09:56PM

Can see where you coming from with the speed and the endurance. I am second guessing myself and was disappointed with my HM time. Having said that I incorporated it into my training and dropped the 2nd Q session on the Wednesday.

Decided not to race again for a number of reasons before the big day. Primarily family commitments.

Did DCM last year without any HM beforehand which left me going in blind.

How's training going with you Noel?

noelearly · 04-09-2017 12:07AM

finisklin wrote: »

Can see where you coming from with the speed and the endurance. I am second guessing myself and was disappointed with my HM time. Having said that I incorporated it into my training and dropped the 2nd Q session on the Wednesday.

Decided not to race again for a number of reasons before the big day. Primarily family commitments.

Did DCM last year without any HM beforehand which left me going in blind.

How's training going with you Noel?

Been good do far, followed the advanced P&D plan 55 to 70 miles a week. I haven't stuck to it ridigly but happy enough with what I've done, improved my 5k to 18.07 my 5 miles to 30.27 and my HM to 1hr 23m in Clonmel 2 weeks ago. 3 weeks out to Berlin so fingers crossed now. 1 more 5k to do this week and see how I handle the taper. I've averaged about 57 miles a week in 14 outta 15 weeks. Took in a 25 mile week a while back because I had dose of man flu.

Second guessing yourself is only natural think it's part of the fun!!

dna_leri · 04-09-2017 02:04PM

finisklin wrote: »

Hi folks,

looking for some help on my training and perhaps reassurance as DCM is closing in.

Doing Daniels 2Q program and up to 70 miles a week.

This program may be too ambitious for me endurance wise to the detriment of speed.

Have a good foundation of mileage built up over the last few years as I enjoy running, all year round.

Recent race times as follows;
HM - 1.29
10k - 40.08
5k - 18.33

My aim for the HM was sub 1.28 and this has questioned my approach.

Completed DCM last year in 3.10.

Goal was to go sub 3, which is too ambitious at this point.

Looking for some guidance - continue on with program or adapt it in favour of developing more speed focussed sessions?

I do not think you have a problem with speed. Your target pace for DCM is 6:50 and your 5K pace is under 6 mins.You know you can run 26.2 miles so it's just about maintaining the pace for longer :) - what some people call speed endurance.
Your pace for 10K is 6:28 /mi so already that's quite a drop-off from 5K pace and too close to what you would probably want to run for a half. Ideally you should be sub 39 for 10K so regardless of the outcome of this marathon cycle, that's something to come back and work on later.
I don't know the Daniels program but 70 mpw seems about right. I did similar mileage last year also coming off a faster short distance base. The sessions I found most helpful were MP mixed with HMP & T-pace. (e.g. 4x 1K T-pace, 1K MP) After a while the MP starts to feel comfortable. Seems to me it's that 10K-HMP pace range you need to develop. If Daniels does not include these you might want to consider adapting.
Remember of course that if you were training for a half and had tapered into it, then you would have run faster. Also you have 7-8 weeks of marathon training to go, so it's a bit early to reassess your targets.

healy1835 · 04-09-2017 03:33PM

Debating with myself about targets in Berlin. The decision is sub 3 or 3:05. I've sort of decided on 3:05 but I wouldn't mind people looking at cold numbers who probably haven't followed my log.

2 previous marathons, DCM '15 &' 16. 3:39 & 3:19
'15 went for 3:30, finished badly, just didn't have it in the legs.

'16 went for 3:20, probably a soft target but wanted to experience finishing a marathon strong. Just dipped under 90 mins in Race Series Half and had a great race on the day, no snags at all, came in 3:19:07

2017: Kicked on from DCM and have trained consistently since, albeit with Feb/Mar/Apr being a little hit and miss due to injury and illness.

This year has included;
30:55 Raheny 5 Mile
65:55 Castleblayney 10 Mile
1:25:52 Tullamore Half

Training block will have been 16 weeks, most in or around 120k, and more or less consisting of LR, 2 sessions, 4 Easy runs. Have only missed a couple of days. LR's have included 3x30k, 2x32k & 1x36k. Haven't done anything during the LR's, no MP miles in them. 3 weeks out, feeling great. Don't want to sell myself short but would hate to go for Sub 3 when it wasnt on.....

The Sub 3 Support Thread

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