Brexit discussion thread II

mickoneill31 · 15-07-2017 06:28PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's further than Paris.

Probably why he didn't say closest to London.
I'm sure many places are closer to London than Dublin.

solodeogloria · 15-07-2017 06:37PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's further than Paris.

Good evening!

Or Amsterdam or Brussels. The Eurostar brings you to central Brussels in two and a half hours.

Dublin has a clear advantage in language and taxation but let's not overstate it. You can get a better more cost effective broadband provision in other EU countries and Dublin lags behind substantially in public transportation and high quality housing.

I personally don't believe passporting will be removed from London under MiFID II. I don't see the apocalypse that others see here.

Britain is seeking a progressive new relationship with the EU but outside of it and a progressive outlook to the wider world. I think it will succeed.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

LeinsterDub · 15-07-2017 06:40PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Britain is seeking a progressive new relationship with the EU but outside of it and a progressive outlook to the wider world. I think it will succeed.

Britain is still trying to have it's cake and eat it. This won't happen. What concessions are the UK willing to make?

Professor Moriarty · 15-07-2017 06:42PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So nothing at all then, you just don't like the Tories. Who, by the way, can be voted out iof parliament at the next general election, whenever that may be.

Are eu countries the only countries in the world with workers rights?

Well hopefully they will be voted out. Do you really trust the elitist Tories to look after the ordinary worker if they lose the protection of the EU? Seriously?

Water John · 15-07-2017 06:44PM

Culturally, Dublin is closest. That would be very important for workers and their families, moving.

solodeogloria · 15-07-2017 06:54PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Britain is still trying to have it's cake and eat it. This won't happen. What concessions are the UK willing to make?

Good evening,

I'm not suggesting that Britain will have its cake and eat it. What I am suggesting is that new opportunities are bright even if the terms with the EU are more restrictive than today.

I think we're already seeing some concessions from the UK side and I don't think this is by any means done.

Usually when people prophesy armageddon I ask for a justification. The problem with this thread and it's precursor is people have been prophesying it without any good justification at all.

I have to agree with Fratton Fred that a lot of it comes down to jingoistic little Irelanders.

Water John wrote: »

Culturally, Dublin is closest. That would be very important for workers and their families, moving.

I don't agree. Culturally London is a huge melting pot in a way that Dublin isn't. London is many things to many people.

I also think dismissing every day concerns is heavy handed. People want to know that the everyday lives will be the same. Personal taxation is high, public transport is poor, housing provision is full, healthcare is costly, and school places are scarce.

Dublin needs to up it's game big time and I say that with only positive aspirations.

Companies should also consider smaller cities like Cork and Galway. The quality of life can be and probably is better if sustainable movements are planned. It would also provide much needed development outside of the dominant city. The Dublin / rest of the country divide is too pronounced. It is more pronounced than the London Vs the regions divide. Progressive tax policy for other cities could be key.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

My name is URL · 15-07-2017 06:54PM

Was just reading an article and came across this which I hadn't heard before.

Davis committed his own Brexit blunder the day Article 50 was triggered in March, according to EU and British officials, when he placed a call to Timo Soini, Finland’s foreign minister and a critic of the EU. Having been told he was speaking to Soini, Davis announced down the phone in enthusiastic terms that Brexit had begun, and that he needed the Finn’s support to secure a good deal from the EU.

Only when he heard the voice at the other end of the line did Davis realize he was in fact speaking to Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator. It was the second time the two men had spoken since Davis was given the job.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-14/britain-s-brexit-chaos-leaves-eu-friends-and-foes-bemused

lmao

Professor Moriarty · 15-07-2017 07:30PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening,

I'm not suggesting that Britain will have its cake and eat it. What I am suggesting is that new opportunities are bright even if the terms with the EU are more restrictive than today.

I think we're already seeing some concessions from the UK side and I don't think this is by any means done.

Usually when people prophesy armageddon I ask for a justification. The problem with this thread and it's precursor is people have been prophesying it without any good justification at all.

I have to agree with Fratton Fred that a lot of it comes down to jingoistic little Irelanders.

I don't agree. Culturally London is a huge melting pot in a way that Dublin isn't. London is many things to many people.

I also think dismissing every day concerns is heavy handed. People want to know that the everyday lives will be the same. Personal taxation is high, public transport is poor, housing provision is full, healthcare is costly, and school places are scarce.

Dublin needs to up it's game big time and I say that with only positive aspirations.

Companies should also consider smaller cities like Cork and Galway. The quality of life can be and probably is better if sustainable movements are planned. It would also provide much needed development outside of the dominant city. The Dublin / rest of the country divide is too pronounced. It is more pronounced than the London Vs the regions divide. Progressive tax policy for other cities could be key.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Haven't seen any Little Irelanders posting here. Perhaps you need to look up it's meaning.

solodeogloria · 15-07-2017 07:35PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Haven't seen any Little Irelanders posting here. Perhaps you need to look up it's meaning.

Good evening!

I've seen many cases on this thread and it's precursor.

It isn't in the interest of Irish people to constantly berate Britain and the interests of the British people.

The inverse is true. It is precisely in Ireland's interests to ensure a good deal for Britain.

It seems like some are more interested in punishing Britain for a sovereign democratic decision it made to ensure schadenfreude for themselves. It actually seems to be the running theme of this thread and it's precursor.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

LeinsterDub · 15-07-2017 07:43PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

I think we're already seeing some concessions from the UK side and I don't think this is by any means done.

Usually when people prophesy armageddon I ask for a justification. The problem with this thread and it's precursor is people have been prophesying it without any good justification at all.

....

I don't agree. Culturally London is a huge melting pot in a way that Dublin isn't. London is many things to many people.
...

What concessions? List them.

Not culturally similar? Owe come on pull the other one please.

solodeogloria · 15-07-2017 07:49PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What concessions? List them.

Not culturally similar? Owe come on pull the other one please.

Good evening,

I'm not a fan of listing information that is easily accessible online.

So far they have agreed to the European Union's timeline and they have agreed that a payment regarding its obligations needs to be made.

They are also willing to have an independent court bound by international law to protect the rights of citizens.

The European Union so far haven't made any concessions but I believe we will see some particularly in respect to other European countries accessing essential debt and equity services in the City.

I don't think London and Dublin are similar due to the fact that London has a substantial immigrant population. If jobs are relocated it will include highly skilled Russian, Ukrainian, European, and Indian staff amongst others. City banks aren't full of white British employees. They only make up 48% of London's population.

This discussion would go much better if people didn't make rude comments about other people's posts.

Why is Brexit going to be armageddon?

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Calina · 15-07-2017 07:52PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

The inverse is true. It is precisely in Ireland's interests to ensure a good deal for Britain.

It is in Ireland's interests to ensure a good deal for Ireland. If the UK, idiotic and all as they have been, happen to benefit, then they are just lucky.

But we're not in the business of ensuring a good deal for Britain. They chose their path. Ireland and the EU is Ireland's main concern. In the words of a great UK politician, Britain can go whistle for Ireland to focus on Britain's interest.

An Claidheamh · 15-07-2017 07:54PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Britain is seeking a progressive new relationship with the EU but outside of it and a progressive outlook to the wider world. I think it will succeed.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Leaving the E U is progressive? British neo-imperialists progressive?

Brexiteers are victims of ...... "Little Irelanders"?

You seem intent on humiliating yourself.

The new found concern British people have about Irish housing and trains just shows how desperate they are.

It's actually laughable.

Don't worry your City banks will happy here. Can't wait.

Cheerio,

An Claidheamh.

solodeogloria · 15-07-2017 07:54PM

Calina wrote: »

It is in Ireland's interests to ensure a good deal for Ireland. If the UK, idiotic and all as they have been, happen to benefit, then they are just lucky.

But we're not in the business of ensuring a good deal for Britain. They chose their path. Ireland and the EU is Ireland's main concern. In the words of a great UK politician, Britain can go whistle for Ireland to focus on Britain's interest.

Good evening!

A punitive deal for the UK would be extremely bad for Ireland. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Remember De Valera's stupid mistake in the 1930's with the Anglo Irish trade war. We don't need to do that again. Honestly, we really don't.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

LeinsterDub · 15-07-2017 07:55PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening,

I'm not a fan of listing information that is easily accessible online.

So far they have agreed to the European Union's timeline and they have agreed that a payment regarding its obligations needs to be made.

They are also willing to have an independent court bound by international law to protect the rights of citizens.

They had no choice but to agree to the EU timeline they are the ones on the clock. Do they really want to waste time arguing over the timeline?

Agreeing to follow international law isn't exactly much of a concession.

LeinsterDub · 15-07-2017 07:56PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

A punitive deal for the UK would be extremely bad for Ireland. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Remember De Valera's stupid mistake in the 1930's with the Anglo Irish trade war. We don't need to do that again. Honestly, we really don't.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The difference is now we've 27 other countries to trade with. Over half a billion people.

Calina · 15-07-2017 07:58PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

A punitive deal for the UK would be extremely bad for Ireland. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Remember De Valera's stupid mistake in the 1930's with the Anglo Irish trade war. We don't need to do that again. Honestly, we really don't.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

I don't have an issue. But Ireland's interests need to be the fore here. The UK can benefit tangentially. We are not working for Britain's interests at this point and let's face it they voted themselves out without caring what impact it would have on Ireland. It was profoundly stupid and selfish of them and now you are suggesting we should continue to self sacrifice for them?

In any case solo, I am coming to the conclusion that in the UK some people are starting to work out that this is an utter traincrash and some people are starting to talk about transitional arrangements which is a step forward. If they could just get rid of Liam Fox and Boris Johnson, it is possible that things could move forward far more effectively than they have to date. The UK has not done its homework at all but time is running out.

Professor Moriarty · 15-07-2017 07:58PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

I've seen many cases on this thread and it's precursor.

It isn't in the interest of Irish people to constantly berate Britain and the interests of the British people.

The inverse is true. It is precisely in Ireland's interests to ensure a good deal for Britain.

It seems like some are more interested in punishing Britain for a sovereign democratic decision it made to ensure schadenfreude for themselves. It actually seems to be the running theme of this thread and it's precursor.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Nope. A Little Irelander would have an aversion to the EU as well as Britain. You don't get to make up your own definitions.

It constantly amazes me how much yourself and Fred just don't get it. I feel sorry for what is going to happen to the ordinary Brit. But here's the rub. If you think beyond Britain's borders for a moment, what the lying and selfish Little Englanders in the Tory party are about to do damages my country and my economy and my EU. If you keep that in mind, many of the posts by Irish people on this thread will make more sense to you.

solodeogloria · 15-07-2017 07:58PM

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Leaving the E U is progressive. British neo-imperialists progressive?

The new found concern British people have about Irish housing and trains just shows how desperate they are.

It's actually laughable.

Don't worry your City banks will happy here. Can't wait.

An Claidheamh.

Good evening,

I'm Irish, living in the UK, working in the City albeit in technology.

If Dublin benefited from partial movement I would be pleased but I'm not praying for armageddon for Britain and neither should you. It would be horrific for Ireland despite what some claim here.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria · 15-07-2017 08:01PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Nope. A Little Irelander would have an aversion to the EU as well as Britain. You don't get to make up your own definitions.

It constantly amazes me how much yourself and Fred just don't get it. I feel sorry for what is going to happen to the ordinary Brit. But here's the rub. If you think beyond Britain's borders for a moment, what the lying and selfish Little Englanders in the Tory party are about to do damages my country and my economy and my EU. If you keep that in mind, many of the posts by Irish people on this thread will make more sense to you.

Good evening

I'm Irish too

The only difference is that I believe that Brexit is a good opportunity to find a more appropriate relationship with the EU and the wider world.

There's no rational case for armageddon for the UK. This thread is full of fearmongering and borderline Anglophobia.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

LeinsterDub · 15-07-2017 08:02PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

I'm not praying for armageddon

Who's praying for armageddon? We are just pointing out that's where the current strategy (lack of strategy may be more apt) is leading.

Britain wants a trade agreement, how do they plan to achieve this given European isn't for turning on the ECJ or the free movement of people and they aren't willing to accept either?

solodeogloria · 15-07-2017 08:04PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Who's praying for armageddon? We are just pointing out that's where the current strategy (lack of strategy may be more apt) is leading.

Britain wants a trade agreement, how do they plan to achieve this given European isn't for turning on the ECJ or the free movement of people and they aren't willing to accept either?

Good evening!

A third country FTA isn't the same as single market membership.

CETA with Canada operates with a joint court of arbitration with Canadian and European judges. The UK could do similar and wants to do similar. It doesn't require free movement.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

LeinsterDub · 15-07-2017 08:06PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

A third country FTA isn't the same as single market membership.

CETA with Canada operates with a joint court of arbitration with Canadian and European judges. The UK could do similar and wants to do similar. It doesn't require free movement.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Grand so join the back of the queue. What about banking, airlines, Irish border, citizens rights?

solodeogloria · 15-07-2017 08:08PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Grand so join the back of the queue. What about banking, airlines, Irish board, citizens rights?

Good evening,

What do you mean? That's what the negotiation is discussing right now.

The future relationship will be discussed as negotiations progress.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

LeinsterDub · 15-07-2017 08:11PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening,

What do you mean? That's what the negotiation is discussing right now.

The future relationship will be discussed as negotiations progress.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The current negotiations are for something more than 3rd country agreements.

Once again what about banking, airlines, Irish border and citizens rights?

Do you think agreeing to be held to account the the ECJ even by proxy will be acceptable?

Professor Moriarty · 15-07-2017 08:16PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening

I'm Irish too

The only difference is that I believe that Brexit is a good opportunity to find a more appropriate relationship with the EU and the wider world.

There's no rational case for armageddon for the UK. This thread is full of fearmongering and borderline Anglophobia.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

I know you are Irish. My point remains. There is a lot of shock and a lot of anger towards elements of British society, in particular the elites who lie and lie and lie. You and Fred see it as "Anglophobia". It is not. It's anger that Little Englanders are messing with our economy and our EU. But many of those in Britain (and I include you in this) don't understand or care about the effect that this Tory clusterfúck will have on other countries, especially Ireland.

Korat · 15-07-2017 08:32PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

It isn't in the interest of Irish people to constantly berate Britain and the interests of the British people.

What influence does it have?

None

It only speaks the truth of how Ireland will be affected by a decision the English and Welsh took without consideration for Ireland.

It's in Ireland's interest that the UK should retain as many benefits of EU membership as possible but what it loses and any pain it causes should absolutely be highlighted as their own fault for years to come.

Junkyard Tom · 15-07-2017 08:35PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

a sovereign democratic decision

The just over half of people who voted to leave the EU did so for many reasons, some of them barefaced lies, but not one of them had any clue what leaving the EU would entail because no plan was presented.

Leonard Hofstadter · 15-07-2017 08:40PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I know you are Irish. My point remains. There is a lot of shock and a lot of anger towards elements of British society, in particular the elites who lie and lie and lie. You and Fred see it as "Anglophobia". It is not. It's anger that Little Englanders are messing with our economy and our EU. But many of those in Britain (and I include you in this) don't understand or care about the effect that this Tory clusterfúck will have on other countries, especially Ireland.

Exactly. It's in Ireland's best interest for the UK to have as close a relationship as possible with the EU - or a 'deep and special partnership' as Mrs May would put it. The thing is, the UK had a 'deep and special partnership' - it was called being in the European Union.

Thus far the UK has shown no interest in doing what might be beneficial for Ireland so how can they possibly expect us to help them? If the UK wants to keep as close a relationship as possible, then great, of course we in Ireland should want it and support them, but I don't see much evidence by the Tories that they're actually trying to do this.

Mrs May's so called 'offer' on EU citizens' rights is nowhere near as good as what Irish citizens in the UK currently have - basically we are not treated as 'foreign' because of the Ireland Act of 1949, so that is a step backwards. Even for other EU citizens, it's nowhere near as good as what we currently enjoy, which is once we're here for five years we can stay as long as please. Given all of that, why would we want to be siding with the UK when what they're offering is nowhere near as good as what the EU is offering us?

The EU is more than three times as important to us export wise, so siding with the UK doesn't seem like an especially good idea, especially when the UK is determined to cut itself off from the rest of the world.

Now, if at some point, the UK grows up, decides to orbit back into planet earth and starts behaving like adults, and agrees to swiftly expedite things like the divorce bill, the border and EU citizens' rights, then of course we can have a more favourable conversation and turn to the free trade agreement, which they so desperately need and want.

I have no desire to see Britain punished - I live there for a start so I want a good deal as much as possible. I have a lot of time and respect for them, yes there are some douches, but that's the same everywhere. What I am realistic enough about is that I know we in Britain cannot have all the benefits of EU membership, with none of the drawbacks. If the EU were to agree to special rules for the UK (they already sort of did with the Cameron deal) then everyone else, quite rightly, is going to say, Britain gets all of these things and they're not a member so what's the point in us being a member and putting up with all the EU regulations and rules on freedom of movement etc? That is the basis for an EU collapse, and however flawed the EU may be (and it is), it is infinitely better than what went before it.

We wouldn't be half the country we are today if it wasn't for the EU, that's for sure.

Professor Moriarty · 15-07-2017 08:44PM

captainspeed wrote: »

Exactly. It's in Ireland's best interest for the UK to have as close a relationship as possible with the EU - or a 'deep and special partnership' as Mrs May would put it. The thing is, the UK had a 'deep and special partnership' - it was called being in the European Union.

Thus far the UK has shown no interest in doing what might be beneficial for Ireland so how can they possibly expect us to help them? If the UK wants to keep as close a relationship as possible, then great, of course we in Ireland should want it and support them, but I don't see much evidence by the Tories that they're actually trying to do this.

Mrs May's so called 'offer' on EU citizens' rights is nowhere near as good as what Irish citizens in the UK currently have - basically we are not treated as 'foreign' because of the Ireland Act of 1949, so that is a step backwards. Even for other EU citizens, it's nowhere near as good as what we currently enjoy, which is once we're here for five years we can stay as long as please. Given all of that, why would we want to be siding with the UK when what they're offering is nowhere near as good as what the EU is offering us?

The EU is more than three times as important to us export wise, so siding with the UK doesn't seem like an especially good idea, especially when the UK is determined to cut itself off from the rest of the world.

Now, if at some point, the UK grows up, decides to orbit back into planet earth and starts behaving like adults, and agrees to swiftly expedite things like the divorce bill, the border and EU citizens' rights, then of course we can have a more favourable conversation and turn to the free trade agreement, which they so desperately need and want.

I have no desire to see Britain punished - I live there for a start so I want a good deal as much as possible. I have a lot of time and respect for them, yes there are some douches, but that's the same everywhere. What I am realistic enough about is that I know we in Britain cannot have all the benefits of EU membership, with none of the drawbacks. If the EU were to agree to special rules for the UK (they already sort of did with the Cameron deal) then everyone else, quite rightly, is going to say, Britain gets all of these things and they're not a member so what's the point in us being a member and putting up with all the EU regulations and rules on freedom of movement etc? That is the basis for an EU collapse, and however flawed the EU may be (and it is), it is infinitely better than what went before it.

We wouldn't be half the country we are today if it wasn't for the EU, that's for sure.

Great post.

Brexit discussion thread II

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