Brexit discussion thread II

Bushmanpm

Water John wrote:

Bush, I see a lot of fury and little sense. BTW, Govn'ts can create money. It's called QE.

No fury at all, more exacerbation.
QE is not real money, its just printing extra whilst devaluing the original

Water John

Govn'ts print money. Yes, how much of it depends on certain other macro factors. It's still real money. If they give you 5K of it, you can spend it.
In fact a good few economists think that's what should have been done and not given it free to the banks.

LeinsterDub

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0715/890456-blair-brexit/

EU leaders would be willing to tighten up the free movement of the bloc's citizens to accommodate Britain and so the option of reversing Brexit must be kept on the table, Tony Blair has said

Not sure where he's getting this from. How do you tighten up free movement. It makes no sense?

Water John

Blair may see himself as a alternative Govn't? Hoping for the Blairites to get LB back from Corbyn.

ancapailldorcha

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0715/890456-blair-brexit/



Not sure where he's getting this from. How do you tighten up free movement. It makes no sense?

If true, it sets a pretty bad precedent whereby the EU will bend over backwards just to appease the British Eurosceptics.

Wanderer78

Water John wrote:

Bush, I see a lot of fury and little sense. BTW, Govn'ts can create money. It's called QE.

Water John wrote:

Govn'ts print money. Yes, how much of it depends on certain other macro factors. It's still real money. If they give you 5K of it, you can spend it. In fact a good few economists think that's what should have been done and not given it free to the banks.

According to Steve keen, governments create money by creating bonds, and i do believe people's qe probably would have been better for our economies than central bank qe.

FrancieBrady

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0715/890456-blair-brexit/



Not sure where he's getting this from. How do you tighten up free movement. It makes no sense?

'EU leaders' is a very vague term, do we know which ones?

Professor Moriarty

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If true, it sets a pretty bad precedent whereby the EU will bend over backwards just to appease the British Eurosceptics.

Many EU politicians would say they've been doing that for years. Even Cameron was back and forth looking for derogations to try and satisfy the Tory eurosceptics Must be very tempting to just say 'Good Riddance' at this stage. Your point about further derogations is valid. Countries such as Hungary and Austria would be straight in with their own demands.

steddyeddy

A very successful political and economic union shouldn't change its policies in order to appease xenophobes.

Nate--IRL--

Consider the source for a moment.....

Nate

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

And workers' rights will be greatly diminished

Will they? what do you base your assertion on? can you point to the specific piece of policy that states workers rights will be greatly diminished?

steddyeddy wrote: »

A very successful political and economic union shouldn't change its policies in order to appease xenophobes.

hhmmm, there is a lot of xenophobia kicking around alright:rolleyes:

ultimately though, does wanting to restrict immigration xenophobic? if it is, why does the eu not allow free movement of people from all over the world and why does it have a policy that eu nationals should be given favoritism over third country nationals?

is the eu xenophobic on a continental scale, rather than a country one?

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Will they? what do you base your assertion on? can you point to the specific piece of policy that states workers rights will be greatly diminished?

Sure. The Great Repeal Bill. Once passed and Britain has left the EU, workers' rights will be at the mercy of the Tories. May promised to retain all EU employment law in her election manifesto. I don't believe her. Anyone who believes that the elitist Tories won't dismantle workers' rights asap to please their big business cronies and funders is a fool.

Which worker's rights do you think May will look to diminish?

I'm pretty anti-hard Brexit myself but I don't know which 'red-tape' with respect to worker's rights that anyone has any specific interest in making moves against.

Perhaps the working time directive. Perhaps. But anything else particularly?

FWIW - https://redtapeinitiative.org.uk/ & https://www.civilserviceworld.com/articles/news/letwin-reveals-details-brexit-focused-initiative-cut-red-tape I actually think this is a good thing from an EU perspective. If the UK does find any 'quick wins' that they believe are relatively painless and have cross party support and applies them, then the EU will have the opportunity to observe effects and if they are indeed quick wins, copy them.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Will they? what do you base your assertion on? can you point to the specific piece of policy that states workers rights will be greatly diminished?



hhmmm, there is a lot of xenophobia kicking around alright:rolleyes:

ultimately though, does wanting to restrict immigration xenophobic? if it is, why does the eu not allow free movement of people from all over the world and why does it have a policy that eu nationals should be given favoritism over third country nationals?

is the eu xenophobic on a continental scale, rather than a country one?

No it isn't. However the UK government comprises the Tories and the DUP. Sammy Wilson agreed that removing "ethnics from Northern Ireland was a good idea. Show me your friends and I'll tell you who they are.

Capt'n Midnight

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If true, it sets a pretty bad precedent whereby the EU will bend over backwards just to appease the British Eurosceptics.

What concessions are the UK making in return ?

At this stage I take any UK announcement with a pinch of salt.
"we can have our cake and eat it"
"we don't need to make concessions"
vs. well documented EU position papers and history.


Who else in the EU would like these new rules and who wouldn't ?
And what would it take to appease both sides and is the UK worth the hassle ?

An Ciarraioch

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0715/890456-blair-brexit/



Not sure where he's getting this from. How do you tighten up free movement. It makes no sense?

This is precisely what Cameron was looking for before calling the referendum, and he got nowhere.

steddyeddy

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

This is precisely what Cameron was looking for before calling the referendum, and he got nowhere.

People seem to be forgetting this point. Cameron already tried to negotiate even better terms for the UK and got nowhere.

LeinsterDub

steddyeddy wrote: »

People seem to be forgetting this point. Cameron already tried to negotiate even better terms for the UK and got nowhere.

In fairness he got a few concessions but he was never going to get enough to appease the hardcore brexiters

steddyeddy

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In fairness he got a few concessions but he was never going to get enough to appease the hardcore brexiters

All those concessions will be lost if the UK re-renter the EU according to Guy Verhofstadt. They will likely lose the pound too.

LeinsterDub

steddyeddy wrote: »

All those concessions will be lost if the UK re-renter the EU according to Guy Verhofstadt. They will likely lose the pound too.

That's the case of an exit and reentry. If they never leave I assume they stay on current terms

Korat

I think the UK is too far down the road already to abort Brexit but if a transitional deal is agreed to last until the next election it could remain/re-enter under new terms, less favourable the ones the left under though. Rebates and opt-outs will be gone for sure.

LeinsterDub

Korat wrote: »

I think the UK is too far down the road already to abort Brexit but if a transitional deal is agreed to last until the next election it could remain/re-enter under new terms, less favourable the ones the left under though. Rebates and opt-outs will be gone for sure.

Would they realistically get unanimous support for reentry?

murphaph

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Would they realistically get unanimous support for reentry?

As time passes it gets less and less likely. Several countries, including Ireland would take them back with all existing opt-outs but I'm sure some would not.

Professor Moriarty

Korat wrote: »

I think the UK is too far down the road already to abort Brexit but if a transitional deal is agreed to last until the next election it could remain/re-enter under new terms, less favourable the ones the left under though. Rebates and opt-outs will be gone for sure.

Would we get to keep the 100 billion?

LeinsterDub

murphaph wrote: »

As time passes it gets less and less likely. Several countries, including Ireland would take them back with all existing opt-outs but I'm sure some would not.

Some countries (France?) may never take them back even if they come back with their cap in hand willing to accept any terms and conditions

LeinsterDub

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/15/dublin-first-choice-london-banks-brexit-relocation-plans

In boardrooms across London, bank executives are deciding where to move tens of thousands of jobs in the event of a hard Brexit. Rival European financial centres, including Paris, Frankfurt and Luxembourg, are vying for the business – but Dublin is emerging as the most popular destination..... with 19 firms mentioning a possible move to the Irish capital.

Good news for us. Over a quarter of companies moving staff into the EU 27

So what is it that makes Dublin, a city with a population of 1.4 million and a chronic housing shortage, no international schools and a stained history in banking so attractive?

Less so.

Professor Moriarty

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/15/dublin-first-choice-london-banks-brexit-relocation-plans



Good news for us. Over a quarter of companies moving staff into the EU 27



Less so.

We're really nice people. Just look at Boards.

Or maybe it's the shush...corporation tax rate.....shush.

mickoneill31

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

We're really nice people. Just look at Boards.

Or maybe it's the shush...corporation tax rate.....shush.

Language, location, law, infrastructure etc. etc.
Of course tax is a consideration. Why the "shush"?

Water John

If a Co was wanting staff to move from London, Dublin would be much less of a cultural change and an easier sell.

Professor Moriarty

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Language, location, law, infrastructure.

How does our location help? I'm not an expert, but from what I read our infrastructure is relatively poor. Law and language I'd definitely agree with.

Water John

You see Prof, I can answer you questions, before you even ask them.

solodeogloria

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Language, location, law, infrastructure etc. etc.
Of course tax is a consideration. Why the "shush"?

Good evening!

Do you really think that infrastructure is Ireland's boon over other European Union countries?

If you've ever been in Frankfurt Airport you'll see that the rail infrastructure there is something to behold. Not only do they have a short distance rail station into Frankfurt they also have a long distance station which brings people to other European capitals and throughout Germany.

Dublin's public transport lags substantially behind other countries and it has a housing crisis. It could capitalise much much better than it does.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

mickoneill31

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

How does our location help? I'm not an expert, but from what I read our infrastructure is relatively poor. Law and language I'd definitely agree with.

Location to UK. Not a huge move if people are relocating. West Coast of Europe. Closest to US.

Broadband infrastructure is pretty good in business areas. Plenty of data centres. Many companies already have a major presence here.

mickoneill31

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Do you really think that infrastructure is Ireland's boon over other European Union countries?

If you've ever been in Frankfurt Airport you'll see that the rail infrastructure there is something to behold. Not only do they have a short distance rail station into Frankfurt they also have a long distance station which brings people to other European capitals and throughout Germany.

Dublin's public transport lags substantially behind other countries and it has a housing crisis. It could capitalise much much better than it does.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Good afternoon.

Infrastructure is not just roads and airports. Internet links, data centres, ports on the west of Europe etc are infrastructure too.
Its easy enough to point out where we're crap. We all know that our transport system is crap. And we all know that our government is way too slow at improving this to capitalise on opportunity.

For some companies rail and public transport might be priority number one. They won't come here.

I didn't say Irelands infrastructure is the best. Its still a consideration for a company when considering relocating here.

Junkyard Tom

Nody wrote: »

Chances are that a 10% price increase would lose you way more than 10% of your customers simply because of easier to get alternatives.

That might be offset by brand loyalty, but yeah, fair enough. My main point is that the sales won't evaporate and the hit the large multinationals will experience won't be nearly as bad as some Brexiters might have us believe.

LeinsterDub

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

How does our location help? I'm not an expert, but from what I read our infrastructure is relatively poor. Law and language I'd definitely agree with.

Close to London

Lemming

Joining in late, but RE Tony Blair's comments, I think that the headlines are misleading. If you read what he says, he's not saying what the headlines (surprise surprise ...) claim he is.

His point is - I believe - that the EU is already starting to have a conversation about reform albeit in embryonic stages, in part because of #Wrexsh1t, but also in part because of the recent rise (and thankful beat down) of the far right in various countries not least France, and the ongoing refugee/migrant crisis. So the UK agreeing to grow the f*ck up and engaging with the rest of the EU in a meaningful manner rather than hurling sh1t from the ditch might see a better outcome for all concerned.

Water John

Yes, esp with Macron and even the recent speech by Juncker, the EU seems getting ready to reinvigorate itself.
It should take great pride in what it has achieved but not be overly occupied at moving towards a single union.

Fratton Fred

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Close to London

It's further than Paris.

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Sure. The Great Repeal Bill. Once passed and Britain has left the EU, workers' rights will be at the mercy of the Tories. May promised to retain all EU employment law in her election manifesto. I don't believe her. Anyone who believes that the elitist Tories won't dismantle workers' rights asap to please their big business cronies and funders is a fool.

So nothing at all then, you just don't like the Tories. Who, by the way, can be voted out iof parliament at the next general election, whenever that may be.

Are eu countries the only countries in the world with workers rights?

mickoneill31

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's further than Paris.

Probably why he didn't say closest to London.
I'm sure many places are closer to London than Dublin.

solodeogloria

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's further than Paris.

Good evening!

Or Amsterdam or Brussels. The Eurostar brings you to central Brussels in two and a half hours.

Dublin has a clear advantage in language and taxation but let's not overstate it. You can get a better more cost effective broadband provision in other EU countries and Dublin lags behind substantially in public transportation and high quality housing.

I personally don't believe passporting will be removed from London under MiFID II. I don't see the apocalypse that others see here.

Britain is seeking a progressive new relationship with the EU but outside of it and a progressive outlook to the wider world. I think it will succeed.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

LeinsterDub

solodeogloria wrote: »

Britain is seeking a progressive new relationship with the EU but outside of it and a progressive outlook to the wider world. I think it will succeed.

Britain is still trying to have it's cake and eat it. This won't happen. What concessions are the UK willing to make?

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So nothing at all then, you just don't like the Tories. Who, by the way, can be voted out iof parliament at the next general election, whenever that may be.

Are eu countries the only countries in the world with workers rights?

Well hopefully they will be voted out. Do you really trust the elitist Tories to look after the ordinary worker if they lose the protection of the EU? Seriously?

Water John

Culturally, Dublin is closest. That would be very important for workers and their families, moving.

solodeogloria

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Britain is still trying to have it's cake and eat it. This won't happen. What concessions are the UK willing to make?

Good evening,

I'm not suggesting that Britain will have its cake and eat it. What I am suggesting is that new opportunities are bright even if the terms with the EU are more restrictive than today.

I think we're already seeing some concessions from the UK side and I don't think this is by any means done.

Usually when people prophesy armageddon I ask for a justification. The problem with this thread and it's precursor is people have been prophesying it without any good justification at all.

I have to agree with Fratton Fred that a lot of it comes down to jingoistic little Irelanders.

Water John wrote: »

Culturally, Dublin is closest. That would be very important for workers and their families, moving.

I don't agree. Culturally London is a huge melting pot in a way that Dublin isn't. London is many things to many people.

I also think dismissing every day concerns is heavy handed. People want to know that the everyday lives will be the same. Personal taxation is high, public transport is poor, housing provision is full, healthcare is costly, and school places are scarce.

Dublin needs to up it's game big time and I say that with only positive aspirations.

Companies should also consider smaller cities like Cork and Galway. The quality of life can be and probably is better if sustainable movements are planned. It would also provide much needed development outside of the dominant city. The Dublin / rest of the country divide is too pronounced. It is more pronounced than the London Vs the regions divide. Progressive tax policy for other cities could be key.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

My name is URL

Was just reading an article and came across this which I hadn't heard before.

Davis committed his own Brexit blunder the day Article 50 was triggered in March, according to EU and British officials, when he placed a call to Timo Soini, Finland’s foreign minister and a critic of the EU. Having been told he was speaking to Soini, Davis announced down the phone in enthusiastic terms that Brexit had begun, and that he needed the Finn’s support to secure a good deal from the EU.

Only when he heard the voice at the other end of the line did Davis realize he was in fact speaking to Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator. It was the second time the two men had spoken since Davis was given the job.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-14/britain-s-brexit-chaos-leaves-eu-friends-and-foes-bemused

lmao

Professor Moriarty

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening,

I'm not suggesting that Britain will have its cake and eat it. What I am suggesting is that new opportunities are bright even if the terms with the EU are more restrictive than today.

I think we're already seeing some concessions from the UK side and I don't think this is by any means done.

Usually when people prophesy armageddon I ask for a justification. The problem with this thread and it's precursor is people have been prophesying it without any good justification at all.

I have to agree with Fratton Fred that a lot of it comes down to jingoistic little Irelanders.



I don't agree. Culturally London is a huge melting pot in a way that Dublin isn't. London is many things to many people.

I also think dismissing every day concerns is heavy handed. People want to know that the everyday lives will be the same. Personal taxation is high, public transport is poor, housing provision is full, healthcare is costly, and school places are scarce.

Dublin needs to up it's game big time and I say that with only positive aspirations.

Companies should also consider smaller cities like Cork and Galway. The quality of life can be and probably is better if sustainable movements are planned. It would also provide much needed development outside of the dominant city. The Dublin / rest of the country divide is too pronounced. It is more pronounced than the London Vs the regions divide. Progressive tax policy for other cities could be key.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Haven't seen any Little Irelanders posting here. Perhaps you need to look up it's meaning.

solodeogloria

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Haven't seen any Little Irelanders posting here. Perhaps you need to look up it's meaning.

Good evening!

I've seen many cases on this thread and it's precursor.

It isn't in the interest of Irish people to constantly berate Britain and the interests of the British people.

The inverse is true. It is precisely in Ireland's interests to ensure a good deal for Britain.

It seems like some are more interested in punishing Britain for a sovereign democratic decision it made to ensure schadenfreude for themselves. It actually seems to be the running theme of this thread and it's precursor.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

LeinsterDub

solodeogloria wrote: »

I think we're already seeing some concessions from the UK side and I don't think this is by any means done.

Usually when people prophesy armageddon I ask for a justification. The problem with this thread and it's precursor is people have been prophesying it without any good justification at all.

....

I don't agree. Culturally London is a huge melting pot in a way that Dublin isn't. London is many things to many people.
...

What concessions? List them.

Not culturally similar? Owe come on pull the other one please.