Lock, Stock and Chitchat a Seacht

kowtow · 12-07-2017 07:04PM

Base price wrote: »

I disagree that every side needs more work, irresponsible dog owners need the work. What work do farmers need to do?
We used to keep sheep here years ago but quit them because of problems with dogs. We got sick to the teeth warning neighbours to keep their dogs under control and in most cases to no avail. in the 90's one neighbour even asked us to shoot their family dog next time we saw him on the land as it would cost her to get it put down by the vet :mad:
Here is the section of the legislation that refers to a farmer shooting a dog that is worrying their livestock. To me it's pretty clear and unambiguous.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1986/act/32/section/23/enacted/en/html#sec23

It is clear and unambiguous, and puts the farmer in the case above squarely in the wrong.

Username John · 12-07-2017 07:11PM

kowtow wrote: »

Believe me, I get it completely. Have had to shoot a couple myself in the past - but this country is becoming Metropolitan faster than anybody can imagine. Most farmers - including sheep farmers - will be asking the taxpayer to front up more in the years ahead as the budget for CAP gets smaller.

That absolutely will not happen unless we find a place in public's hearts - and that kind of above-the-law carry on undoes a whole lot of good work, as much as one can sympathise with the individual farmer.

The law is already well on the side of the farmer in these cases, more so than in other countries, what we need is concerted hard work to enforce it, and get the message rammed home more and more each year. There is - I think - a very high compliance rate for chipping dogs, much more so than for the dog licence. Perhaps a few well reported damages cases with decent payouts would get the message across faster than cartridges.

You might see the damages as a victory - but it's not a victory for the sheep farmer...

How long did they have to wait for the court case to get resolved, how many of their sheep did they have to gather up in bits in the field, how much more have they lost which can't be gotten in a monetary sum...

You see people getting 10k for slipping on a chip in shopping centre, but the anguish that goes into a sheep kill for a sheep farmer doesn't seem to be taken into account at all... it seems a farmer is lucky to get the costs incurred...

We have had numerous comments here of sheep farmers giving owners second chances and it ending up in more sheep deaths...
How will the courts help in this situation?

We have numerous comments of how rubbish dog wardens are - what's a farmer on the ground supposed to do, ring up a judge and ask them to come and take the dogs away?

I do think dog owners should be taken to court for damage, but I think to suggest that it will resolve our problem faster than getting rid of the immediate problem is naive...

The law is on our side, but the law has always been on our side, yet things seem to be getting worse with dog attacks...
Why - people don't care. As they are becoming more removed from the farmer, they don't see their dog as a killer, nor do they seem sheep kills as more than a minor issue on that one day for the farmer...

I am all for bringing the public with us, and showing them how we work, what we do, explaining our issues...
But the majority only care for as long as you are talking to them... that's it...

But in this instance, I don't agree with the softly-softly approach - we cant wait around looking at dogs savaging sheep, and hoping the courts will make dog owners improve...

Base price · 12-07-2017 07:26PM

kowtow wrote: »

It is clear and unambiguous, and puts the farmer in the case above squarely in the wrong.

I do agree that he should not have shot it in the trailer, he should have shot it in the field. It got to the stage here (NCD) that we would shoot dogs if they were in the vicinity of the sheep, call the garda with a description and bury the dog with the jcb.
As the Sheriff said the dog wardens are useless (well they were in those days) and didn't work weekends. We caught two dogs (a lab and a mid sized terrier cross) that chased a cousins lambs through a neighbours farm into ours. We brought them to the yard and locked them into a shed, phoned the dog warden but because it was a Saturday and a BH weekend there would be nobody available until the following Tuesday.

kowtow · 12-07-2017 07:28PM

Username John wrote: »

You might see the damages as a victory - but it's not a victory for the sheep farmer...
But in this instance, I don't agree with the softly-softly approach - we cant wait around looking at dogs savaging sheep, and hoping the courts will make dog owners improve...

Certainly don't see damages as a victory of any kind, rather as a deterrent - as you say yourself if a judge can award 10K for slipping in a chipper there is no reason why the courts can't be asked to look at the real impact of sheep attacks and award accordingly. There is no reason that I can think of that damages can only be held to cover the loss of livestock.

And it is inescapable that in many, perhaps most, cases the dog is likely to be most effectively identified by reading it's chip after shooting. Shoot the dog if within the law, read the chip, and make sure that the owners are sued for realistic, not nominal, damages. That way the cases will be publicised and - and in the end this is important - dog owners will become properly concerned for their liability and their household insurance.

Look at the change of attitude in ourselves as farmers and business owners to the prospect of tradesmen or casual workers "doing a bit of work" and the risk & knock on effect of claims - that was never the case in the past. Now most of us are acutely aware of our responsibilities and unwilling to take risks. That change of attitude is what we are looking for in dog owners.

I'm not saying for a moment don't shoot dogs - I'm saying (1) don't illegally shoot dogs and give newspaper interviews about it because it alienates the public and (2) when you do catch or have to shoot a dog, always follow through with a good damages claim for the real cost - no matter how much effort it might seem (and surely this is where farmer organisations can help).

That way in time the public might understand the real cost of dog attacks.

Make every shot count.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 12-07-2017 07:28PM

kowtow wrote: »

It is clear and unambiguous, and puts the farmer in the case above squarely in the wrong.

Legally, yes.

Morally, not even close, tbh.

I don't know if you've ever had sheep, kowtow. They would drive you insane some days but you form a strong attachment to them, even the suicidally stupid ones.

I remember going out over Christmas one year after a dog attack. My sheep would generally ignore me unless I was carrying a bag of ration but this year I was unable to even bring the ewes in for lambing and was advised to let them lamb outside and try bringing them in with their lambs as they went berserk as soon as I showed up at the gate, running through wires and through ditches.

I remember bringing down plastic bags to collect the bodies of lambs aborted, lambs that were lambed and the mothers running away and letting them after them to die or be picked off by foxes or crows.

I remember breaking a lambs leg trying to catch it and carrying it to the vet to get a cast on it and it dying a few days later anyway.

I remember ewes lambing at night and mal presentations leading to just a head coming or just the legs and the head turned back and me struggling to get the lamb out and losing both the ewe and lambs.

There is no justice for a farmer after a dog attack, kowtow, no amount of money could come anywhere near compensation for the destruction on the sheep and the mental torment the farmer goes through.

I honestly don't care how the dog dies at this stage as long as it's dead. That will not go down well with some quarters but, honestly, I couldn't give a damn.

I would suggest anyone that has a problem with what I just wrote to keep some sheep for a year and come back then and tell me I am wrong.

I doubt there will be even one that will.

kowtow · 12-07-2017 07:39PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Legally, yes.

Morally, not even close, tbh.

I don't know if you've ever had sheep, kowtow. They would drive you insane some days but you form a strong attachment to them, even the suicidally stupid ones.

Yup, many years ago, and have had to shoot dogs in with them - after they tore apart two really cracking Oxford Down show winners. And that in the UK where rights of way & the law even then was much more on the side of the public.

Thankfully I never had a big-scale attack, although I've been present at the aftermath of a couple. I get the anger and the distress completely - but as others have said whatever it is we are doing at the moment doesn't seem to be enough.

Shoot and sue (but don't forget to sue!)

ganmo · 12-07-2017 08:03PM

We had a great dog warden in our area for years and we haven't really tested the new one yet, so far I'm not impressed so I see where you're coming from Buford but once you have the dog contained you shouldn't shoot it and if ya do don't feckin advertise that ya did you're leaving yourself open.

ganmo · 12-07-2017 08:07PM

kowtow wrote: »

Shoot and sue (but don't forget to sue!)

Whereas here the unfortunate phrase is shoot shovel and shut up

Base price · 12-07-2017 08:17PM

Another point to note is that if you own a dog from the Restriction of Certain breeds regulations then your home insurance doesn't cover them. I was told by FBD that my house policy would not cover when I got my first Rottweiler.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1991/si/123/made/en/print

kowtow · 12-07-2017 08:19PM

Incidentally when registering your dog on the ID tag database, the fields for breed & colour are not standardised.

"Tyrannosaurus / Ginger." is already taken.

Base price · 12-07-2017 08:29PM

Incidentally does anyone know of any insurance claims by farmers against dog owners. I don't mean names and addresses but successful claims against house insurance iykwim.
Maybe Rangler might know some stats via IFA.

kowtow · 12-07-2017 08:42PM

Base price wrote: »

Incidentally does anyone know of any insurance claims by farmers against dog owners. I don't mean names and addresses but successful claims against house insurance iykwim.
Maybe Rangler might know some stats via IFA.

That's what I was wondering.

Not difficult to ask for statistics publicly - or presumably ask on the Dail record for a list of damages awards in the courts.

Court awarded damages and the insurance premia which are justified on the back of them are a matter of very real public interest and debate. I dare say if you commissioned a poll of the public with a detailed description of a dog attack (or pictures) you'd be surprised at how high the man on the street would put the damages and yet people are probably picking up higher settlements for a broken finger nail.

Change public perception of the damage done while reminding them that it begins with a dead dog.

Base price · 12-07-2017 09:09PM

kowtow wrote: »

That's what I was wondering.

Not difficult to ask for statistics publicly - or presumably ask on the Dail record for a list of damages awards in the courts.

Court awarded damages and the insurance premia which are justified on the back of them are a matter of very real public interest and debate. I dare say if you commissioned a poll of the public with a detailed description of a dog attack (or pictures) you'd be surprised at how high the man on the street would put the damages and yet people are probably picking up higher settlements for a broken finger nail.

Change public perception of the damage done while reminding them that it begins with a dead dog.

If the Farmers Journal, Farming Indo, Agriland etc were to run a article with figures showing claims against home insurance and the possible/probable increase in annual premiums then I'm sure it would be taken up by mainstream media. In fact it would be an effective way of informing the general public of the financial consequences of roaming dogs.
All we need is an enthusiastic journalist to carry the message.

rangler1 · 12-07-2017 09:15PM

Base price wrote: »

Incidentally does anyone know of any insurance claims by farmers against dog owners. I don't mean names and addresses but successful claims against house insurance iykwim.
Maybe Rangler might know some stats via IFA.

I don't have any thing to do with IFA now, bit I doubt if that sort of information is available.
I had a fair ould battle with NARGC about ten years ago when they wouldn't cover a members misbehaving dog and got it sorted through IFA, if claims on house insurance information was available I'm sure it would've come up at some of the meetings at the time.
Most claims would be settled privately......house insurance only covers damage done by a dog on their own property...at least that what I was told when I went to the dog owners house insurance

Farmer_3650 · 12-07-2017 09:37PM

I think anyone with Dogs like the pitbull, Rottweiler etc. should have to keep them in a way that they cannot escape. I have one neighbour that has at least 15 dogs and most of them would be vicious breeds. In fairness they are well fenced in and none of them ever got out yet. If they were to get out, I'd lose every sheep I have in a matter of minutes and I wouldn't think twice about shooting them.

However this man was wrong in what he did. He got the dog to come up to him and to me it doesn't sound like this dog was a threat to his sheep. He should have rang the warden and let him deal with the dog.

ganmo · 12-07-2017 09:44PM

That breed bullcrap, all dogs should be kept in a way that they can't escape.

I'm convinced that restricted breed regulation should be changed to a breed weight rather than the list there is now.

patsy_mccabe · 12-07-2017 10:04PM

There's a guy near me that keeps a good few of those pit-bull type dogs. Didn't know what to make of him at first, but then I heard he minds them for the an animal rescue charity. Now he's very good with them, very firm and walks them individually every day.
Talking to him one day while he was walking this very big type pit-bull. When she jumped up on me, her paws were up on my chest. Now another neighbour met him and the same dog while out walking his own dog, a lovely spaniel-Labrador cross. The pitbull attacked his dog. Latched onto the side of her mouth and wouldn't let go for a few mins.:mad:
Now he walks the same dog on a muzzle. Morale of the story - I wouldn't trust any of them.

Nekarsulm · 12-07-2017 10:07PM

The only lamb I ever had killed by dogs (butcher ready, of course) was killed by a Rottweiler and a Pekinese.
My elderly neighbour rang in a state of shock, and I ran down the road to the field to where they were standing eating the lamb.
The Rottweiler looked like a small donkey in the sights, and I shot him, but the Pekinese ran for home, and despite having a semi auto and about 15 rounds in the tube (this was some years ago) I couldn't hit him.
I got it tight to lift the Rottie into the back of the land rover.....

Knew who owned them, but couldn't prove it, and the Peke must have been boarded out cause he didn't appear around his owners yard again.

Base price · 12-07-2017 10:12PM

Farmer_3650 wrote: »

I think anyone with Dogs like the pitbull, Rottweiler etc. should have to keep them in a way that they cannot escape. I have one neighbour that has at least 15 dogs and most of them would be vicious breeds. In fairness they are well fenced in and none of them ever got out yet. If they were to get out, I'd lose every sheep I have in a matter of minutes and I wouldn't think twice about shooting them.

However this man was wrong in what he did. He got the dog to come up to him and to me it doesn't sound like this dog was a threat to his sheep. He should have rang the warden and let him deal with the dog.

All dogs should be kept in a controlled space/area irrespective of breed. In my personal experience the breeds that we had most problems with were Labradors and smaller breeds like jack russells terriers. I'm not picking on Labs or terriers but I reckon it was due to our proximity to an urban area and those breeds were most popular amongst families. We only had one problem with a "restricted breed", a young Alsatian who rambled about but worried the stock/bloodstock when he arrived on the farm. He never chased any stock but his presence did cause concern amongst the sucklers and mares. When we told the owners they took responsibility and brought him to a dog trainer where they (and the dog) learned about obedience, recall etc.
I think the majority of people get a pup and don't think about their responsibilities after

ganmo · 12-07-2017 10:24PM

I keep an eye on the lost dogs pages on facebook, it helps me decide if I should bring the gun out with me, there's a pitbull missing nearby

whelan2 · 13-07-2017 08:32AM

Mad morning here. Cow went down in parlour. Thought it was tetany. Gave her a bottle of magnesium and got her into crush. Rang vet. Silage lads arrived to bring in silage. Vet came. Thinks cow has collic. Have to bring kids to soccer camp and department inspection at ten......

patsy_mccabe · 13-07-2017 10:18AM

In Tesco this morning to get a few things. At the till there is an old man in front of me, must be 90 or so. You wanna see his shopping. All loose veg and fruit. De didn't even bother with the small plastic bags. Easy to see why he was in the prime of his health.
Compare that to the girl behind me. Early twenties and obese. All frozen and processed food, heaped up on the conveyor. Really hit home why we have an obesity epidemic.

whelan2 · 13-07-2017 11:00AM

whelan2 wrote: »

Mad morning here. Cow went down in parlour. Thought it was tetany. Gave her a bottle of magnesium and got her into crush. Rang vet. Silage lads arrived to bring in silage. Vet came. Thinks cow has collic. Have to bring kids to soccer camp and department inspection at ten......

All done. All good....

Buford T. Justice XIX · 13-07-2017 11:36AM

Clear test:)

Username John · 13-07-2017 11:38AM

whelan2 wrote: »

Mad morning here. Cow went down in parlour. Thought it was tetany. Gave her a bottle of magnesium and got her into crush. Rang vet. Silage lads arrived to bring in silage. Vet came. Thinks cow has collic. Have to bring kids to soccer camp and department inspection at ten......

It souds like you have a few things on, but I hope you prioritized your tasks, and made time to put on the nice beef stew for the silage lads...

And FFS, dont give em pasta or pizza, mother of God...

Hope the inspection went ok...

Genghis Cant · 13-07-2017 11:42AM

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

In Tesco this morning to get a few things. At the till there is an old man in front of me, must be 90 or so. You wanna see his shopping. All loose veg and fruit. De didn't even bother with the small plastic bags. Easy to see why he was in the prime of his health.
Compare that to the girl behind me. Early twenties and obese. All frozen and processed food, heaped up on the conveyor. Really hit home why we have an obesity epidemic.

I've turned it into a game in my mind when I'm in the supermarket. I look at the items on the conveyor belt and try and figure out the type of person behind me.
I've noticed exactly what you witnessed.

whelan2 · 13-07-2017 11:47AM

Username John wrote: »

It souds like you have a few things on, but I hope you prioritized your tasks, and made time to put on the nice beef stew for the silage lads...

And FFS, dont give em pasta or pizza, mother of God...

Hope the inspection went ok...

Sending them to the local for dinner. Nearly finished now. They will help us cover pit after dinner

whelan2 · 13-07-2017 12:18PM

Genghis Cant wrote: »

I've turned it into a game in my mind when I'm in the supermarket. I look at the items on the conveyor belt and try and figure out the type of person behind me.
I've noticed exactly what you witnessed.

I do the same. Even the kids comment on what is in other people's trolley. Often noticed when some veg is in the super 6 you get foreign people topping up big time on them

whelan2 · 13-07-2017 05:32PM

One is off for pints

I said · 13-07-2017 06:10PM

whelan2 wrote: »

One is off for pints

Well fcuk ya I've an awful goo on me now for swill

Lock, Stock and Chitchat a Seacht

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