Point Village Shopping Centre

subpar · 11-06-2017 7:55pm

The key aspect for Dunnes is to get the balance / size right between groceries and household goods /drapery. The customer profile is going to be office workers on their lunchtime / local apartment owners / residents of East Wall. Free Parking will be an issue, so most customers will enter on foot and purchases will be carried out of the shop thus limiting the spend. The new pedestrian bridge when its in place will also add to footfall in entire complex .

The surrounding districts of Fairview , Clontarf, Ringsend are currently well served by supermarkets so Dunnes or any of the other major players will be very careful in getting the size right for such an outlet in the Point Square.

orangerhyme · 11-06-2017 8:04pm

Ringsend only has Tesco Express I think. Grand Canal Dock only has the "Fresh" place which is a little pricey. There is parking underground also.

I dont think enough thought in general is being put into the north docks. Similarly, the south docks looks good, but its a little dead and sterile.

Is it just going to be blocks of offices and apartments, with ground floor units? It seems like an opportunity to do something better.

markpb · 11-06-2017 8:05pm

I could be wrong but I think that when Dunnes signed the lease, the plans for the area were more in favour of residential buildings. While there are a few apartments planned, most of the construction now is offices. Dunnes (and other shops who may have had an interest in the centre) will have almost no interest in moving into a business park. Only cafes that sell sandwiches can make any money in an area like that.

Possibly the plans for IGB site may change this but I'm not sure.

orangerhyme · 11-06-2017 8:20pm

Id imagine an M&S would do well there for picking up lunch and something for dinner.
Dunnes probably have it in the contract that no other supermarket can open up there, but theres plenty of other units free nearby.

Fred_Johnson · 11-06-2017 8:23pm

markpb wrote: »

I could be wrong but I think that when Dunnes signed the lease, the plans for the area were more in favour of residential buildings. While there are a few apartments planned, most of the construction now is offices. Dunnes (and other shops who may have had an interest in the centre) will have almost no interest in moving into a business park. Only cafes that sell sandwiches can make any money in an area like that.

Possibly the plans for IGB site may change this but I'm not sure.

Well you could say the same about Fresh in Grand Canal Dock, and that does great business. A Dunnes of the same size which focuses heavily on sandwiches (as Fresh does) is probably the way to go. But, all the existing new residential builds on the North Docks and many of the offices would need to be completed so i'd estimate Dunnes will open down there in 2019/2020.

orangerhyme · 11-06-2017 8:46pm

I guess Fresh has adapted to its market. Large salad section, lots of sandwiches , deli, not so much fruit and veg etc...

I do feel that there is something lacking in the Dublin Docklands...maybe it lacks an edgy warehouse club/bar scene that you find in other cities.

orangerhyme · 11-06-2017 8:58pm

Could they not just leave one block of it with empty warehouses and offer for low rent to artists, independent bars, cafes, clubs etc....
I know this will sound very hipstery, but Berlin has an area like this with a climbing wall, bars and clubs..

Otherwise the entire docks will be just offices, hotels, apartments and all the usual retail/coffee outlets etc so grey, bland and sterile.

Strong Life in Dublin · 12-06-2017 2:31pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

Could they not just leave one block of it with empty warehouses and offer for low rent to artists,

Eh no offence but this is a prime location, artists can get cheaper rent outside the cc

orangerhyme · 12-06-2017 2:44pm

yeah its just an idea.
I just think the area will be very bland and sterile, its just square blocks of offices

beauf · 12-06-2017 3:11pm

When the artisan xmas market was in the point SC, it breathed instant life to the immediate area because it was an easy hop on the Luas. Or the Cannonballers.

Thats what you mean.

orangerhyme · 12-06-2017 3:42pm

Yeah I guess the idea is to make it more of a destination. Maybe it needs a square/park for events also. The area in front of the Bord Gais theatre is a little small and the EXo building is going in by the Point, although there will still be a bit of space in front of the hotel.

The pedestrian bridge joining the north and south is good.

I like the Cannonballers, didnt know thats what they were called. It shows that with redevelopment of an area should also include the locals and try to keep them, otherwise you lose a lot of the color of the area.

orangerhyme · 12-06-2017 3:46pm

I do like my idea of a disused warehouse offered for cheap rent.

Maybe if some NAMAd warehouse could be opened up by the council for artists, crafts, indie shops, cafes, pubs, clubs etc....

Maybe somewhere like the East Wall, Ballybough, the Liberties

orangerhyme · 12-06-2017 3:48pm

For example here: https://www.google.ie/maps/place/53%C2%B021'01.9%22N+6%C2%B014'02.4%22W/@53.350526,-6.23618,439m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d53.350526!4d-6.233986

beauf · 12-06-2017 3:55pm

There already is a sculptor (or similar) in that complex. Its too off the beaten path though.

Losing the space where the EXo building is probably going to kill any more similar events though.

roycon111 · 12-06-2017 9:00pm

The area is too wealthy and well designed to let low paying tenants in unfortunately - the paradox of fast regeneration in flat, well located and public transport serviced land with good amenities. There are more interesting protected buildings and structures than there are in Grand Canal Dock however so there will be better variety in businesses and just in the look of the place and even the slighter cheaper rents will give it more variety in the shops and businesses and there is always the newly designed port area nearby.

Grand Canal Dock was so big a success that it is almost a victim of its own success. A lot of the quirkier buildings and more interesting features made way for redevelopment in what was a poor brownfield area with contaminated land so that should be put in perspective and it's only just half finished yet we should also bare in mind. The last few initiatives like the restored Diving Bell, the redevelopment of the original mill buildings in Boland's Mill and the AirBNB offices are much more interesting and give a nod to the past and add some great variety.

The population of North and East wall is set to grow by the equivalent of the entire population of Longford within the next 6 years so it can definitely hold a full high quality shopping centre. I don't think people fully grasp just how large the area is going to be yet. The question is when they will all move in - Dunnes will probably hold off until at least one of the new residential developments is close to finishing - so probably 18 months.

Two of Ireland's best truly indigenous tech firms are now located there as well in Fenergo and Voxpro so that should also be mentioned in so far is a slightly cheaper option to GCD.

beauf · 12-06-2017 9:20pm

No doubt it will grow. But Fenergo and Voxpro aren't big enough to have an impact.

The Centra bank people probably just head to mayors square or to GCD.

subpar · 12-06-2017 9:42pm

The Central Bank has 1500 staff , Voxpro roughly 500 and Fenergo will have about 500 in 12 months time once they have completed their current recruitment exercise.

In addition add in the staff from NTMA building next to the Central Bank and the workers from the other new office buildings in the Dublin Landings and the new builds on the Hales Freight site and there are more than enough people to fill the new retail units which will surely open up in this new quarter of the City.

beauf · 12-06-2017 10:49pm

Regardless. There still is relatively little footfall in the area around the point. There's already a lot of people in apartments, and kitchens, offices etc in the area. Just no one walking around.

Take the spar is mainly only busy when the builders are in there or something on in the point. I wonder if it relocated to the point village would it draw more people out.

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 7:06am

roycon111 wrote: »

The area is too wealthy and well designed to let low paying tenants in unfortunately - the paradox of fast regeneration in flat, well located and public transport serviced land with good amenities. There are more interesting protected buildings and structures than there are in Grand Canal Dock however so there will be better variety in businesses and just in the look of the place and even the slighter cheaper rents will give it more variety in the shops and businesses and there is always the newly designed port area nearby.

Grand Canal Dock was so big a success that it is almost a victim of its own success. A lot of the quirkier buildings and more interesting features made way for redevelopment in what was a poor brownfield area with contaminated land so that should be put in perspective and it's only just half finished yet we should also bare in mind. The last few initiatives like the restored Diving Bell, the redevelopment of the original mill buildings in Boland's Mill and the AirBNB offices are much more interesting and give a nod to the past and add some great variety.

The population of North and East wall is set to grow by the equivalent of the entire population of Longford within the next 6 years so it can definitely hold a full high quality shopping centre. I don't think people fully grasp just how large the area is going to be yet. The question is when they will all move in - Dunnes will probably hold off until at least one of the new residential developments is close to finishing - so probably 18 months.

Two of Ireland's best truly indigenous tech firms are now located there as well in Fenergo and Voxpro so that should also be mentioned in so far is a slightly cheaper option to GCD.

It's hard to complain I guess when we've gone from bankruptcy to fastest growing economy in Europe in just a few years. Unemployment will be below 5% pretty soon and there will be 100+ cranes in the skyline. 70 at last count.
Dublin is going to change so much in next couple of years.
The entire Docklands SDZ will be filled in soon. Poolbeg SDZ will follow. Devaney Gardens, Dolphins Barn, O Teresa's gardens are soon to start.
I've read that Dublin inner city population (between the canals) has gone from 90000 in '91 to about 150000 today. I'd imagine it'll hit 200,000 by next census in 2021.

I'd like the existing inner city Dubs to be included in this new future.

At the risk of sounding like Una Mulally, I think we shouldn't completely give the city over to corporate interests. Try to find a balance between modern offices and apartments, and spaces for locals, artists, independent shops, cafes etc...
I'm not sure exactly how to do this.
Maybe have a look at other inner city areas such as East Wall, North Strand, Ballybough, Cabra, Rialto.
I think there might be parts of D8 which might be suitable for this but maybe it's already being gentrified.
Perhaps the area around Newmarket, lots of old warehouses around there.
I just think the ground units of the entire Docklands will be Starbucks, Spar, Milanos etc...And will be a little boring.

beauf · 13-06-2017 7:26am

Not a scrap of green space near the point either.

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 9:07am

If you look east of O'Connell street; the north strand, Connolly station, Sheriff street, Mayor street and Square, Spencer Dock, North Docks, The point, East Wall, Ballybough, The IFSC.....thats a huge area with big population but theres barely a scrap of park, playgrounds, playing fields...

It seems like really bad planning. They talk about wanting to encourage families to live in the city center but the facilities simply arent there

Here: https://www.google.ie/maps/place/53%C2%B021'05.9%22N+6%C2%B014'19.2%22W/@53.3513927,-6.2409421,880m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d53.351645!4d-6.238677

Might be a good location as its central to everything and just wasteland at the moment.

markpb · 13-06-2017 9:48am

beauf wrote: »

Not a scrap of green space near the point either.

orangerhyme wrote: »

If you look east of O'Connell street; the north strand, Connolly station, Sheriff street, Mayor street and Square, Spencer Dock, North Docks, The point, East Wall, Ballybough, The IFSC.....thats a huge area with big population but theres barely a scrap of park, playgrounds, playing fields...

Ringsend Park is a 10 minute walk from the Point. 26 acres, playgrounds, multi-sport pitches and allotments. Fairview park is a 20 minute walk to the north. Central Square is grand for office workers sitting outside enjoying a bit of sunshine. It might be unrealistic to expect massive parks with sports facilities right on your doorstep if you live in the city centre. Lots of people in the suburbs would love to be a 10-20 minute walk from parks like that.

beauf · 13-06-2017 9:58am

Lots of parks within walking range. Thats not what I'm talking about.

But on Google Maps you can see theres almost no green space in the Docklands/IFSC

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3506918,-6.2373817,14.5z

subpar · 13-06-2017 10:36am

Agree more green space would be nice. The river is an amenity which thankfully is being used more and more.

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 10:41am

Fairview is more like 30 minute walk from the Point and Mayor Square and Ringsend park is psychologically a lot further due to the fact its across the river. At those distances they might as well just get the Luas to the Phoenix park.

My point still stands that the entire area is lacking in park, green, recreational facilities

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 10:46am

The community in the Liberties/D8 has successfully turned wasteland into a park at the junction of Ormond Street and Cork street.

They needn't have bothered, sure isnt it just a 20 minute walk to St Stephens Green, and in the other direction they have IMMA grounds and phoenix park!!

You're missing the point, in high density urban areas, green areas and parks are vital.

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 10:48am

The wasteland next to the Docklands Train station would be perfect, but I bet the value of the land for development will win.
It could be integrated with Royal Canal Greenway when its finished.

MrMorooka · 13-06-2017 10:51am

subpar wrote: »

The Central Bank has 1500 staff , Voxpro roughly 500 and Fenergo will have about 500 in 12 months time once they have completed their current recruitment exercise.

In addition add in the staff from NTMA building next to the Central Bank and the workers from the other new office buildings in the Dublin Landings and the new builds on the Hales Freight site and there are more than enough people to fill the new retail units which will surely open up in this new quarter of the City.

New Facebook office on East Road too.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 13-06-2017 11:22am

orangerhyme wrote: »

Fairview is more like 30 minute walk from the Point and Mayor Square and Ringsend park is psychologically a lot further due to the fact its across the river. At those distances they might as well just get the Luas to the Phoenix park.

That's some seriously odd logic right there. Pheonix park is miles away, Ringsend park is not.

What wasteland at the docks, do you mean where east road meets east wall? If so, Ringsend park is closer.

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 11:38am

I'm talking about the entire area from the north Strand, to Sheriff, to IFSC, The point, East Wall....Theres no park for that entire area.

Im referring to the wasteland right next to Docklands Train station as stated.

Phoenix park is 20 minutes by Luas...you might as well go there...
Ringsend Park is a 23 minute walk from Mayor Square...

I dont know what you mean by "seriously odd logic"...!!!

All my points still stand and make perfect logical sense.

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 11:40am

"What wasteland at the docks, do you mean where east road meets east wall?"......

this is nowhere near Docklands Train Station. Look at a map

TallGlass · 13-06-2017 12:43pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

My point still stands that the entire area is lacking in park, green, recreational facilities

No it's not, Sheriff St has a playground, a green and an astro park, across from it is more green space and a river the local kids around the area jump into when its hot out. There is also green space around East Wall.

geecee · 13-06-2017 1:01pm

My understanding is that they are building a small L shaped shaped park around the North bank development on castleforbes road...

There is also the green area at Spencer dock luuas stop...

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 1:02pm

TallGlass wrote: »

No it's not, Sheriff St has a playground, a green and an astro park, across from it is more green space and a river the local kids around the area jump into when its hot out. There is also green space around East Wall.

Its still very lacking. The sheriff street park is tiny and isnt the safest. Theres open drug dealing near there. East wall has a couple of astro pitches. Thats it really.

I dont think jumping into a polluted river counts as a park or recreational facilities.

I honestly didnt think stating that such a large urban dense area lacking a park was the most controversial opinion. Theres lots of wasteland near there. Surely some of it is council, NAMA or CIE owned. Parks are cheap. It wouldnt be the hardest problem to solve.

Ben D Bus · 13-06-2017 1:02pm

I've just walked up Mayor St from the 3 Arena to Commons St.

Central Square and the Canal are both green parks. Both were basically empty despite it being lunchtime on a sunny day. The riverside was very busy though.

Another small green area adjacent to the Point Luas stop would adequately serve the area.

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 1:11pm

Ben D Bus wrote: »

I've just walked up Mayor St from the 3 Arena to Commons St.

Central Square and the Canal are both green parks. Both were basically empty despite it being lunchtime on a sunny day. The riverside was very busy though.

Another small green area adjacent to the Point Luas stop would adequately serve the area.

Central square is maybe 30m by 30m.
The canal park is a strip of grass by a very busy road.

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 1:12pm

Is it really adequate for the population explosion the area is about to experience!?

Ben D Bus · 13-06-2017 1:13pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

Central square is maybe 30m by 30m

Plenty of space for the 3 people who were in it at 1:30 on a sunny day

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 1:17pm

Ben D Bus wrote: »

Plenty of space for the 3 people who were in it at 1:30 on a sunny day

Ok, but that area is about to have 10,000's of office workers, students, apartment dwellers coming in the next couple of years.

Im not being controversial. It really is lacking.

Look at the wasteland right next to the Docklands Train station.
Would it not be a good spot for a park and integrate it with the Royal Canal Greenway, so that it also attracts people from further up the canal?

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 1:37pm

Once all the available land is developed into offices and apartments, the opportunity for a park is gone forever then.

beauf · 13-06-2017 1:37pm

You wonder why they bothered planting trees. There's some down Sheriff St and Ringsend. Thats good enough. They are beside the beach for cripes sake. They should rename it the Dublin Riviera.

beauf · 13-06-2017 1:42pm

Ben D Bus wrote: »

Plenty of space for the 3 people who were in it at 1:30 on a sunny day

Try it on a Wednesday there's a Market. More life then.

Though its interesting question. Where is the footfall that all these existing offices should have brought. I suspect many have internal canteens and many don't leave the office at lunchtime. Say you have 30 mins. Maybe they don't want to spend 20 mins of it going to and from somewhere.

There is probably a formula for estimating the commercial footfall due to adjacent offices and apartment.

In the evening these Luas stops have a lot of people at them.

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 1:46pm

It could be a case of "suppressed demand".
Office workers generally like to soak up any vitamin D available to them so they try to lunch outside weather permitting, but I guess the area is so bleak at the moment that they just stay in. The riverside can be a bit blustery and windy also.

Is there really a market in Central Square on Wednesday? Is it at lunchtime? Didnt know that.

beauf · 13-06-2017 3:25pm

Yup been there for a dunno a year or so.

http://irishvillagemarkets.ie/location/spencer-dock/

Dunno for how long its been axed on other days and locations

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/grand-canal-weekly-market-at-mount-street-bridge-axed-1.3042848

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 10:01pm

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/architecture-design-blog/2017/jun/13/an-embarrassment-to-the-city-what-went-wrong-with-the-725m-gateway-to-cambridge

Heres a good example from todays paper showing the effects of bad planning.

They are talking about an area of 1000 students and 350 families and complaining about the small patch of grass.

I suggested that the north docklands area of 10,000's of people had inadequate green space and people disagreed.

hako · 13-06-2017 10:11pm

well i found this document on the web.

https://consultation.dublincity.ie/planning/consultation-on-the-draft-public-realm-masterplan/supporting_documents/DRAFT%20Masterplan%20Docklands%20SDZ.pdf

In this link take a look at page 15 and there you will be able to see a small park similar to the one close to Spencer Dock Luas station. The new green area is between Sheriff srt upper and Major street.

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 10:30pm

I havent seen that document before. Thanks.

The Royal Canal Greenway will help a lot I think. A few trees by the canal next to the convention center also, the strip of grass is very bare. Maybe they are waiting for the Greenway to be completed and then planting will begin.

I still think the parks are tiny. We'll see what happens I guess.

I still think the land between Sheriff street and East Wall would be good for a park and some sport/recreational area.
I think pretty much the whole of the SDZ has been sold and is in development.

orangerhyme · 13-06-2017 10:46pm

The trees along the north quays look good also (page 77). I cycle this a lot and boy is it desolate. The liffey cycle will improve this also.
Thats the problem with city planning I guess, everything is waiting on something else.

L1011 · 14-06-2017 11:05am

beauf wrote: »

Yup been there for a dunno a year or so.

http://irishvillagemarkets.ie/location/spencer-dock/

Dunno for how long its been axed on other days and locations

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/grand-canal-weekly-market-at-mount-street-bridge-axed-1.3042848

Going at least 4 years. Used to move to the hotel site behind the convention centre in winter but that has stopped

beauf · 14-06-2017 1:07pm

Yeah that was an awful location. Freezing and windswept all the time.

Point Village Shopping Centre

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