2017 Public Sector Pay Deal

tayto lover wrote: »

The Unions should refuse to attend talks until wages are restored.
When that happens then talk.

The tax payer should stop paying tax until taxation is cut completely...You lads really dont know when you have it good

Can't see how this is being sold as a good deal and it's nowhere close to pay restoration.
Be interesting to see how the ballots go but it wouldn't surprise me if it's rejected.

fliball123 wrote: »

What was the point of the commission on ps pay and pensions..to show how much more they earn and how much better their pensions are and then they still get a payrise..This country is mental

I don't think that is what the commission on ps pay and pensions concluded.

It was reported as such by some of the more sensationalist newspaper articles, but when you looked at the detail, this wasn't apparent. Here is a link to the report:

http://paycommission.gov.ie/publications/

Firstly, the commission notes that the 2007 Benchmarking Report ascribed a differential of 12% between public sector and private sector pensions and recommended salaries were adjusted to take account of this. Secondly, the Commission did its own analysis. In Appendix E of their report, the Commission values private sector pensions at 10-11% of salary and public sector pensions at 23-25% of salary, a difference of 13-14%, an increase of 2%. However, since 2007, public sector employees have been paying a new pension levy at an average rate of 7%. Using both of those analyses, it is reasonable to conclude that the pension levy should be reduced to 2% to account for the increased cost of pensions in the public sector.

Reading further on, Appendix F concludes that those at the top of the public sector are earning less than their private sector counterparts. In essence, those earning 100k or above in the public sector are earning less and paying more for their pensions than their private sector counterparts.

That is an uncomfortable truth both for the public sector unions which are dominated by the lower-paid and also for the ill-informed private sector viewpoints seen in many of the newspapers.

blanch152 wrote: »

Pay cuts were first imposed in 2008, for many public servants they still won't be restored 13 years later in 2021. Hardly one fell swoop.

Yep. Full restoration should be a precondition to talks.
This is only messing by the leadership.

It's more than a bit much that the likes of Dublin Bus got 3.75% (a YEAR!) and Irish Rail are looking for the same, the other semi-states got nice increases thank you and little or no cuts in the bad times, but public servants will still be subject to 'emergency' measures in 2021 and probably beyond while still being expected to do what is illegal for a private sector employer to demand - work unpaid overtime.

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think that is what the commission on ps pay and pensions concluded.

It was reported as such by some of the more sensationalist newspaper articles, but when you looked at the detail, this wasn't apparent. Here is a link to the report:

http://paycommission.gov.ie/publications/

Firstly, the commission notes that the 2007 Benchmarking Report ascribed a differential of 12% between public sector and private sector pensions and recommended salaries were adjusted to take account of this. Secondly, the Commission did its own analysis. In Appendix E of their report, the Commission values private sector pensions at 10-11% of salary and public sector pensions at 23-25% of salary, a difference of 13-14%, an increase of 2%. However, since 2007, public sector employees have been paying a new pension levy at an average rate of 7%. Using both of those analyses, it is reasonable to conclude that the pension levy should be reduced to 2% to account for the increased cost of pensions in the public sector.

Reading further on, Appendix F concludes that those at the top of the public sector are earning less than their private sector counterparts. In essence, those earning 100k or above in the public sector are earning less and paying more for their pensions than their private sector counterparts.

That is an uncomfortable truth both for the public sector unions which are dominated by the lower-paid and also for the ill-informed private sector viewpoints seen in many of the newspapers.

Think what you like that is exactly what it concluded what I outlined and the omissions left out of it were glaring as in comparing the ps pension to private sector pensions , when there are very few if any these days where a private sector pension is of the same cost to what it costs us the general public to pay for public sector pensions and if there are any out there most if not all are been wound down. Not a dicky bird in there about that.

Nothing in it with regard to a cost on job certainty and before anyone comes on here and says in the PS you can get sacked like anyone else in the private sector . I will point to a few examples just off the top of my head and current

the following :

our commissioner still in there despite the slush fund for the gards and other numerous scandals

The lad working in the OCDE who shredded the docs for Fitzy in Anglo still working

The medical team who killed Savita Halappanavar still working away

The gard doing a porn shoot on a garda car

The lad Kev Cardiff who misplaced 3 billion euros during the worst fincncial crash ever - promoted

Bertie Ahearn the luckiest gambler ever seen in the galway races and who over seen the worst crash ever - still getting a rolls royce pension

Yet the commission give no set price for job certainty? REALLY?

and regardless of what the PS are paying they are not covering the cost of their pension and I find it deplorable that you have the gov on one side and the unions on the other giving pay rises that have a knock on effect for both current and future pensions and not dealing with issues like this as Turkeys dont vote for Xmas

Jawgap wrote: »

Plus, are the Government bound by it? What's to stop them crying "emergency" and tossing the deal in the bin if it is politically expedient to do so?

Absolutely. Nothing.

That's one of the reasons unions are so important in the public sector. At least private-sector workers have legal protections against their employer. In the public sector, the employer is the one who makes the laws so they could do whatever they liked if it weren't for organised labour.

fliball123 wrote: »

Nothing in it with regard to a cost on job certainty and before anyone comes on here and says in the PS you can get sacked like anyone else in the private sector . I will point to a few examples just off the top of my head and current

the following :

our commissioner still in there despite the slush fund for the gards and other numerous scandals

The lad working in the OCDE who shredded the docs for Fitzy in Anglo still working

The medical team who killed Savita Halappanavar still working away

The gard doing a porn shoot on a garda car

The lad Kev Cardiff who misplaced 3 billion euros during the worst fincncial crash ever - promoted

Bertie Ahearn the luckiest gambler ever seen in the galway races and who over seen the worst crash ever - still getting a rolls royce pension

Yet the commission give no set price for job certainty? REALLY?

In both public and private sectors, employees with more than a year's service have substantial legal protection against dismissal (actually, the main exemptions are public-sector entities such as the Army and the Gardaí).

The main point regarding job security is not dismissal, but that there is no compulsory redundancies in the public service (excluding semi-states). However, this is due to the strength of the unions rather than the intrinsic nature of a public-service job, and governments use threats of compulsory redundancy to bully unions, as Brian Lenihan did during the crisis years and Richard Bruton has done more recently, so there is no guarantee against it.

On the broader point of the deal, it is very poor. Public servants still working for free, pay discrimination and tiny, spread-out pay rises that could easily be wiped away by inflation and rents. But what more did unions expect from the talks? Did they think the Government would just give them everything they asked for? From looking at other workers, especially the Guards, it's clear you have to remind the Government what you're capable of if you want to be taken seriously.

It will be very interesting to see how it goes in terms of being accepted by members. Impact and smaller civil service unions the CPSU and PSEU are in negotiations about amalgamating. If, as is likely, they take opposing stances on the deal, there could be ramifications for the merger.

Creol1 wrote: »

Absolutely. Nothing.

That's one of the reasons unions are so important in the public sector. At least private-sector workers have legal protections against their employer. In the public sector, the employer is the one who makes the laws so they could do whatever they liked if it weren't for organised labour.



In both public and private sectors, employees with more than a year's service have substantial legal protection against dismissal (actually, the main exemptions are public-sector entities such as the Army and the Gardaí).

The main point regarding job security is not dismissal, but that there is no compulsory redundancies in the public service (excluding semi-states). However, this is due to the strength of the unions rather than the intrinsic nature of a public-service job, and governments use threats of compulsory redundancy to bully unions, as Brian Lenihan did during the crisis years and Richard Bruton has done more recently, so there is no guarantee against it.

On the broader point of the deal, it is very poor. Public servants still working for free, pay discrimination and tiny, spread-out pay rises that could easily be wiped away by inflation and rents. But what more did unions expect from the talks? Did they think the Government would just give them everything they asked for? From looking at other workers, especially the Guards, it's clear you have to remind the Government what you're capable of if you want to be taken seriously.

It will be very interesting to see how it goes in terms of being accepted by members. Impact and smaller civil service unions the CPSU and PSEU are in negotiations about amalgamating. If, as is likely, they take opposing stances on the deal, there could be ramifications for the merger.

Really so the examples I outlined where someone was killed, where someone committed a crime and destroyed evidence, where someone lost 3 billion? and you think that this person would be still working in the private sector..listen there is blinkered and then there is you

Augeo wrote: »

HSE might be an outlier.

Really? Do you have evidence to back it up?

The Pay Commission (I know it is discredited because people don't like what it said when it was clearly explained to them) said that there are problems at senior management level across the public service.

Augeo wrote: »

Folks are queuing up to get into AGS for example

Well obviously, given the lack of scandal, we have the top-most quality Gardai already for what we pay.

Augeo wrote: »

Country is awash with, part time & potential teachers

Is that a good thing, that our teachers are only part-time and don't have enough to live on?