2017 Public Sector Pay Deal

Vizzy

fliball123 wrote: »

Well when i started working I was told I would not be raped in taxes..things change, I now have to pay an odious tax called the USC which was supposed to be a temporary tax. Why should I have my terms and conditions cut and yours remain in place?

And public servants terms and conditions haven't changed ?

Where can I sign up !!

jamesthepeach

jamesthepeach wrote: »

............ You choose your own career path. If it's not working out you modify it. They just seem to want to whinge instead

But in the public service the majority don't want to modify their path, they just go on strike or threaten to do so when their package is deemed not satisfactory.

Hotblack Desiato

Jawgap wrote: »

The main reason people have problems generating a pension pot in Ireland, imo, is because they don't start early enough. Everyone (or certainly a huge majority) is obsessed with saving to get married and get a house spending most of their 20s and early 30s getting locked at every opportunity......if that much dedication was put into saving for a pension they'd be a lot better off.

Fyp

Hotblack Desiato

fliball123 wrote: »

Well when i started working I was told I would not be raped in taxes..things change, I now have to pay an odious tax called the USC which was supposed to be a temporary tax. Why should I have my terms and conditions cut and yours remain in place?

When was that? 30 years ago the top rate of PAYE was 65%, plus PRSI, plus levies. The norm in Ireland ever since the foundation of the state was that PAYE workers got robbed in tax, the period of lower taxes didn't last that long and there's a particular political party you should be directing your anger at.

Guess what, public sector employees pay PAYE, PRSI and USC at exactly the same rates private sector workers do.

Most private sector workers have had no cuts to their T&Cs, and fair play to them. If you're not happy with your employer then try another one - an option not open to many public sector workers.

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

............... If you're not happy with your employer then try another one - an option not open to many public sector workers.

That option is open to all COs and EOs as well as teachers, nurses etc to a lesser degree.

The only public sector workers finding a new employer isn't open to would be the AGS if they don't want to actually change what they do for a living.

But COs and EOs are doing work that's transerrable skill wise to the public sector. Wages would be about €10 hour for CO type work though and a bit more for EOs.

Lu Tze

Jawgap wrote: »

It's funny, I returned to Ireland in early 00s and was slagged off royally for taking a PS job......people telling me it was a waste of my abilities.......that I'd make a lot more in the private sector (true)......that I'd never be able to get that buy-to-let apartment etc etc etc.

After I joined I sat on interview panels where people, on more than one occasion, turned their noses up at the starting salaries - and, in one case, laughed when we told them. I had to replace staff who left without giving notice, sometimes only weeks and even days (and again, in one case, hours) after starting because they got more lucrative job offers......

Then I got criticised as a public servant for being a public servant.....apparently I went from wasting my talents for pittance to being an over-paid wastrel.....all while suffering a 30% drop in after tax income, and while watching about one third of my colleagues being forced to give up their jobs without any form of redundancy pay (I just laugh at the ignorance of people who say there is no redundancy in the PS.......as if redundancy is the only way to reduce headcount :rolleyes:)

......and to be honest, I liked working in the PS but there comes a point where economics has to trump emotion, so I hopped out again. And to be honest I've yet to see anything in this deal or anywhere that makes me question the wisdom of that decision.

You can top a panel in the public sector, but if you haven't worked in the public sector before, you start at the bottom of the pay scale. So you may place higher that somebody applying from within the public sector, but they will be offered a salary above what they are on presently, quite often higher than the higher placed external candidate.

Jawgap

Augeo wrote: »

That option is open to all COs and EOs as well as teachers, nurses etc to a lesser degree.

The only public sector workers finding a new employer isn't open to would be the AGS if they don't want to actually change what they do for a living.

But COs and EOs are doing work that's transerrable skill wise to the public sector. Wages would be about €10 hour for CO type work though and a bit more for EOs.

Of course it is......that's why private schools and private hospitals (especially those abroad) cream off anyone with any kind of ability.

People complain about PS rates of pay and compare them to pay available in Ireland.....it's the wrong comparison. A young teacher, nurse, doctor, engineer and even someone interested in policing or soldiering looks not just at the money available here in various jobs in the workforce but also the money available elsewhere for their preferred job.

My son is barely two years into his degree and he's already making noises about going to the UK - and when you see the salaries and supports available there for early career teachers, I wouldn't blame him. The net effect is the Irish state have paid for his education and then just when we can expect to get return on it the salaries encourage him (and a lot of his contemporaries to go elsewhere).......we 'save' on the salary but at what cost?

Likewise, my replacement when I left the PS was someone with barely 5 years post-graduate experience - the public purse "saved" on the salary but the cost of his learning on the job has completely swamped any actual saving .

blanch152

fliball123 wrote: »

I am simply saying it is immoral to ask the majority (where over 90% of them) cannot afford to pay for their own pension yet they are asked to cover the public sector, if you look at a lot of the pension schemes in the banks now they are being wound down.

But we are all being asked to pay to cover the pensions of the employees of the bank, surely that's even more immoral as at least the State will give you a non-contributory pension if you were foolish enough not to provide for your own?

blanch152

fliball123 wrote: »

Well when i started working I was told I would not be raped in taxes..things change, I now have to pay an odious tax called the USC which was supposed to be a temporary tax. Why should I have my terms and conditions cut and yours remain in place?

What are you on about? Do you think that public servants don't pay the odious tax called the USC which was supposed to be a temporary tax?

When the recession hit, public servants suffered the same tax increases and USC as you, but they also got hit with pay cuts up to 20% and the pension-related pay deduction, a tax every bit as odious as the USC.

Jawgap

Jawgap wrote: »

Of course it is......that's why private schools and private hospitals (especially those abroad) cream off anyone with any kind of ability..............

......... but the folks left in the PS seem to want pay on a par to what the folks in the private sector get. Benchmarking in the boom and etc etc and now they want pay restored to that level.

Creol1

Augeo wrote: »

But COs and EOs are doing work that's transerrable skill wise to the public sector.

If you're willing to wait ten years for a transfer...

Creol1

Creol1 wrote: »

If you're willing to wait ten years for a transfer...

Apologies, I meant private sector. COs & EOs can move from public to private sector should they desire.

Vizzy

Augeo wrote: »

Apologies, I meant private sector. COs & EOs can move from public to private sector should they desire.

And conversely, people in the private sector can move to Public sector if the desire a career change.

kippy

fliball123 wrote: »

Thats easy to say James when you have a large % of the population not being able to afford a pension and having to shell out a large amount in tax to cover the cohort that is current and future public sector workers. Why not even the playing feild if the gov take money off someone for a pension why not let them put it into their own and let the public sector worker supply the full cost of their pension. People are not jealous they are outraged at the 2-tier system that exists ..

Two Tier system? In relation to pensions?

blanch152

Augeo wrote: »

......... but the folks left in the PS seem to want pay on a par to what the folks in the private sector get. Benchmarking in the boom and etc etc and now they want pay restored to that level.

did you even read the Pay Commission Report which said they deserved increases?

blanch152

fliball123 wrote: »

Thats easy to say James when you have a large % of the population not being able to afford a pension and having to shell out a large amount in tax to cover the cohort that is current and future public sector workers. Why not even the playing feild if the gov take money off someone for a pension why not let them put it into their own and let the public sector worker supply the full cost of their pension. People are not jealous they are outraged at the 2-tier system that exists ..

That large % of the population could afford a pension, problem is they spent the money on houses, cars, holidays, homes abroad, nights out etc. during the good times and now they are jealous of the guy who worked away in the public sector for his pension.

LG1234

I see as part of the deal from January 2018 you can decide to reduce your hours to 6.57 and take the pay cut. Has anyone worker out how much this would cost you if you were on say 45k?

Hotblack Desiato

Vizzy wrote: »

And conversely, people in the private sector can move to Public sector if the desire a career change.

..and desire a substantial pay cut

Sarn

LG1234 wrote: »

I see as part of the deal from January 2018 you can decide to reduce your hours to 6.57 and take the pay cut. Has anyone worker out how much this would cost you if you were on say 45k?

It's done prorata so it should be about a 5% reduction.

Vizzy

Vizzy wrote: »

And conversely, people in the private sector can move to Public sector if the desire a career change.

Most definitely. I would never suggest otherwise.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

..and desire a substantial pay cut

Many CO type jobs are €10/€12 an hour in the private sector.

blanch152 wrote: »

did you even read the Pay Commission Report which said they deserved increases?

............ they've been offered increases over what they are on

Siiigh

I was naive to hope this would be a discussion between public sector workers about the various points of note in this deal wasn't I.

Is there scope to get a board for public servants only I wonder. The constant derailment of relevant discussion by frankly uninformed (at best) shoulder-chipped individuals makes this a real pain.

On the proposed deal:

- govt dictated from the start that the pot was 880m and this had to be divvied out as the union's wished. The unions seem to have accepted this without any question. That's ridiculous, why bother with them at all.
- immediate restoration of pay and conditions should be a hard line in the sand prior to any discussion of future agreements. FEMPI is a piece of emergency legislation that has been morphed into the new normal. If the unions can't achieve serious and immediate results here on day one they should end the talks and prepare for action.
- all FEMPI measures should be included in the immediate wind-down. Hours, PRD, recruitment, the lot. Otherwise the unions should remove themselves from discussion.


Frankly, if my union choose to recommend this offer (it's actually a PER wishlist as far as I can see) I cannot see why I would continue to pay them. They seem utterly confused as to their proper role here- They are party to these talks as the representative body of the respective public servants, and all I can see from them is their willing participation in a govt communications strategy.

Jawgap

Deleted User wrote: »

On the proposed deal:

- govt dictated from the start that the pot was 880m and this had to be divvied out as the union's wished. The unions seem to have accepted this without any question. That's ridiculous, why bother with them at all.
- immediate restoration of pay and conditions should be a hard line in the sand prior to any discussion of future agreements. FEMPI is a piece of emergency legislation that has been morphed into the new normal. If the unions can't achieve serious and immediate results here on day one they should end the talks and prepare for action.
- all FEMPI measures should be included in the immediate wind-down. Hours, PRD, recruitment, the lot. Otherwise the unions should remove themselves from discussion.


Frankly, if my union choose to recommend this offer (it's actually a PER wishlist as far as I can see) I cannot see why I would continue to pay them. They seem utterly confused as to their proper role here- They are party to these talks as the representative body of the respective public servants, and all I can see from them is their willing participation in a govt communications strategy.

I've only been following the reports in the news, but it seems as if there were no or only very limited negotiations?? Most of the time, as I read it, the "negotiations" consisted of the government presenting a paper on some point and the unions accepting it?

Have to be honest and say the only reason I bothered with union membership when I was in the PS was for the cheap car insurance......which wasn't that cheap when you considered that you could take your subs and put them towards a policy and they'd amount to a larger offset than the discount.

I think if I was minded to return to the PS I'd want what I have now with my current employer.......an individualised contract. And I know that's an impossibility given the numbers involved.

jamesthepeach

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Siiigh

I was naive to hope this would be a discussion between public sector workers about the various points of note in this deal wasn't I.

Is there scope to get a board for public servants only I wonder. The constant derailment of relevant discussion by frankly uninformed (at best) shoulder-chipped individuals makes this a real pain.

Some of us who aren't public sector don't have that chip and can actually see the wood from the trees without letting their bias get in the way though.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

............

Is there scope to get a board for public servants only I wonder. The constant derailment of relevant discussion by frankly uninformed (at best) shoulder-chipped individuals makes this a real pain.

Put in a forum request.

I have no chip. I think some PS were and are overpaid ............ CO type work is done in the private sector for €10/€12 an hour. Hence why the COs don't go working in the private sector

Largely, their skill set dictates that they won't be paid as well as they are in the public sector.

Some public sector teachers and nurses etc get better paid jobs in the private sector, the rest don't but like ideally want to be benchmarked against the private sector

The public sector will NEVER get a deal or package they are happy with

The chips are on them

jamesthepeach

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Some of us who aren't public sector don't have that chip and can actually see the wood from the trees without letting their bias get in the way though.

That's fair, sorry to tar the whole private sector with the one brush

Hotblack Desiato

Deleted User wrote: »

Frankly, if my union choose to recommend this offer (it's actually a PER wishlist as far as I can see) I cannot see why I would continue to pay them. They seem utterly confused as to their proper role here- They are party to these talks as the representative body of the respective public servants, and all I can see from them is their willing participation in a govt communications strategy.

I've long wondered what I'm paying them for, fear of chronic illness and the income continuance plan mainly, but it's starting to look more and more likely that you'd be better off taking your chances.

If they merge with Impact that's it. I'm out. My interests aren't well represented now, if we merge with them then there's no hope. That bunch will trod us down to get more for themselves, as they've always done, except now we'll actually be paying Impact for the privilege of being screwed over.

I say this as a former member of my union's branch committee for several years and former national conference delegate on several occasions. I jumped ship when they recommended deals which protected officials but screwed workers, wish I'd just pocketed the last ten years subs instead of wasting them on lining that bunch's pockets. Now they've got their eyes on bigger paying jobs in Impact so they want us to merge.

Hotblack Desiato

Lu Tze wrote: »

You can top a panel in the public sector, but if you haven't worked in the public sector before, you start at the bottom of the pay scale. So you may place higher that somebody applying from within the public sector, but they will be offered a salary above what they are on presently, quite often higher than the higher placed external candidate.

I got a promotion in 2001 to a grade with a supposedly 'negotiable' pay scale entry point. I was a graduate but because I was already working in the PS the personnel officer told me I could not negotiate. This meant I filled a post a grade higher than my previous, but got no pay increase. She freely admitted they were doing this in order to replace experienced higher grade staff with new entrants/graduates/promotees who would work for lower pay

This was in 2001

jessabell88

Hello

I've to yet accept an offer for a CO position as I'm currently weighing up my options. I'd be loosing a fair whack financially to accept it 🙈 Anyway, can anyone please tell me what I'd most likely be on if this deal of E5487was to be accepted over the initial three years twice a year in Jan and Oct... Between tax and natural increments occuring in between in most likely august of every year if I accept the start date for that month I'm genuinely confused as to what I'd end up on after the three years! Single person being taxed at the obvious 20 percent

johnnyskeleton

jessabell88 wrote: »

Hello

I've to yet accept an offer for a CO position as I'm currently weighing up my options. I'd be loosing a fair whack financially to accept it �� Anyway, can anyone please tell me what I'd most likely be on if this deal of E5487was to be accepted over the initial three years twice a year in Jan and Oct... Between tax and natural increments occuring in between in most likely august of every year if I accept the start date for that month I'm genuinely confused as to what I'd end up on after the three years! Single person being taxed at the obvious 20 percent

You might find the information you want in this forum:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=10

Politics is more about discussion of the political side of things as opposed to the specifics of each job.

Hurling Hereford

jessabell88 wrote: »

Hello

I've to yet accept an offer for a CO position as I'm currently weighing up my options. I'd be loosing a fair whack financially to accept it �� Anyway, can anyone please tell me what I'd most likely be on if this deal of E5487was to be accepted over the initial three years twice a year in Jan and Oct... Between tax and natural increments occuring in between in most likely august of every year if I accept the start date for that month I'm genuinely confused as to what I'd end up on after the three years! Single person being taxed at the obvious 20 percent

As the spouse of a Clerical Officer in the Civil Service, our advice to you is stick with your job in the Private Sector both financially and for your own 'peace of mind'. Hope that helps!